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Sony VPL-vw1000 - Page 38

post #1111 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post


You need to make some adjustments. I had the same impression when I first fired it up. Several of the settings are maxed out by default. Do some tweaking and the magic will appear.

Which settings did you find caused the over-emphasized film grain? I noticed this at the local dealer when they had just had the unit set up for not even a day and hadn't yet really spent time tweaking it. He had found that there were some strange artifacts generated by Reality Creation, and therefore turned it off. With his permission, I turned it back on but zeroed out the two sliders. We both agreed that this greatly improved the grain we were seeing in Super 8, but comparing the same scene on a C3X 1080, I think the grain might still have been a bit more pronounced. If there are other tweaks possible, I will stop back by and try it out -- I'm sure they'll be happy to benefit from the wisdom of those here!
post #1112 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMike View Post

Which settings did you find caused the over-emphasized film grain? I noticed this at the local dealer when they had just had the unit set up for not even a day and hadn't yet really spent time tweaking it. He had found that there were some strange artifacts generated by Reality Creation, and therefore turned it off. With his permission, I turned it back on but zeroed out the two sliders. We both agreed that this greatly improved the grain we were seeing in Super 8, but comparing the same scene on a C3X 1080, I think the grain might still have been a bit more pronounced. If there are other tweaks possible, I will stop back by and try it out -- I'm sure they'll be happy to benefit from the wisdom of those here!

I dont recall off hand. I was making several adjustments with GetGrey's video pattern DVD for reference. I would have to go back...
post #1113 of 9657
Okay, thanks anyway. The dealer said they had somebody coming to really dial it in, so hopefully they find whatever you found! :-)
post #1114 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMike View Post

Okay, thanks anyway. The dealer said they had somebody coming to really dial it in, so hopefully they find whatever you found! :-)

Turning off all the NR controls helps a lot.
post #1115 of 9657
So that is what that was! I won't tell you what I thought it was.
post #1116 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post


Turning off all the NR controls helps a lot.

Is that control under Reality Creation? We turned both of those sliders down to zero.
post #1117 of 9657
Yeah its under RC. With RC on, even at 0, film grain is a mess. If the movie has little or no grain though, RC is awesome.
post #1118 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Yeah its under RC. With RC on, even at 0, film grain is a mess. If the movie has little or no grain though, RC is awesome.

Agreed.

I am still discovering and learning something new everyday with the 1000. They should run an online class with new owners. Hey, that's not a bad idea.
post #1119 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Agreed.

I am still discovering and learning something new everyday with the 1000. They should run an online class with new owners. Hey, that's not a bad idea.

Make a video, burn to memory in projector before shipment and make it available via the menu button. Updates via the firmware link.
post #1120 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Agreed.

I am still discovering and learning something new everyday with the 1000. They should run an online class with new owners. Hey, that's not a bad idea.

Doesn't it seem that Sony would offer an engineer, on a webinar, or whatever, with working knowledge of the piece? This thing has gone from, as Mark might say, a screaming orgasm ( apologies, if understated), to a crestfallen impotency, and round again, based on postings. We know manuals usually fail the enduser, but with such a novel piece, a couple of hours, with a really knowledgeable engineer ( we gotta have a polyglot here, who can take away that potential issue, if needed), would save angst and, seemingly sell more of these units for Sony.

Failing that, seems that one of the 1st hands on posts on this piece was from a member in Japan. Don't those engineers at Sony take outside coffee breaks, go home, party?? Oh, I know, if they told you...

Thank you very much

Fury
post #1121 of 9657
Joerod. Read my posts. I have been running one. There are noise reduction controls in the main menu that have nothing to do with the RC controls. They deal with different types of noise than that created by switching RC on and then adjusting what they call resolution. The other slider there is for noise filtering for the noise created by the resolution slider. You need to put up an appropriate test pattern to adjust the RC sliders correctly. I am not sure exactly what the best pattern is at this point but have been using hoizontal and vertical on off pixel line patterns. The controls have drastic effects when these patterns are used. Sony defaults them to 20/20 for non torch modes and to 50/50 for torch modes.


I am in frequent contact with the Sony engineers in the US on a variety of matters. They are in a learning curve too and I suspect Sony Japan to some extent is also. The fact that RC defaults to 20/20 or 50/50 seems to me to indicate that exactly what type of signal or pattern would be optimum for setting it is somewhat unkown as well as how to tune those controls with such pattern. Noise and texture controls on Video Processors often are subjective as to how they should be set and I think the Sony is no different here. At least there are many options.


The problem with all this if course is the danger on following someone's advice because you think they might be right or in someway know more than you.

Let's take that bugger, RC. Someone well respected said put in on but leave the sliders at minimum. I would suggest set them where the PQ looks best to you for a given source. Sony would say try them at 20/20 for dark room settings Perhaps its 13nd 9 or something else. Sony made them user adjustable for a reason and not just to drive me or you crazy.
post #1122 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlubbers View Post

Make a video, burn to memory in projector before shipment and make it available via the menu button. Updates via the firmware link.

Great thinking!
post #1123 of 9657
[quote=Srgtfury;21659311]Doesn't it seem that Sony would offer an engineer, on a webinar, or whatever, with working knowledge of the piece? This thing has gone from, as Mark might say, a screaming orgasm ( apologies, if understated), to a crestfallen impotency, and round again, based on postings. We know manuals usually fail the enduser, but with such a novel piece, a couple of hours, with a really knowledgeable engineer ( we gotta have a polyglot here, who can take away that potential issue, if needed), would save angst and, seemingly sell more of these units for Sony.

Failing that, seems that one of the 1st hands on posts on this piece was from a member in Japan. Don't those engineers at Sony take outside coffee breaks, go home, party?? Oh, I know, if they told you...

Thank you very much

Good thinking as well. Wee said!
post #1124 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

Joerod. Read my posts. I have been running one. The are noise reduction controls in the main menu that have nothing to do with the RC control. They deal with different types of noise than that created by switching RC on and then adusting what they call resolution. The other slider there is for noise filtering for the noise created by the resolution slider. You need to put up an appropriate test pattern to adjust the RC sliders correctly. I am not sure exactly what the best pattern is at this point but have been using hoizontal and vertical on off pixel line patterns. The controls have drastic effects when these patterns are used. Sony defaults them to 20/20 for non torch modes and to 50/50 for torch modes.

I see. Actually the NR controls I mentioned were in the advanced section of the menu not the Reality Creation part. I do like your thinking though. Time to get back to work down there this afternoon!
post #1125 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Yeah its under RC. With RC on, even at 0, film grain is a mess. If the movie has little or no grain though, RC is awesome.

Interestingly, that didn't quite match our (limited) experience at the dealer's. There was very visible (I would say over-emphasized) film grain on Super 8 with Reality Creation off. When we turned it on but set both sliders to 0, it was significantly reduced. I would still say that something strange was happening, though, because where I then noticed grain was on faces, but only when they moved within the film frame. It was almost as if the grain was static and the faces were moving "under" it.

The scene I was watching was chapter 3, which is the nice dark scene that starts with the kids arriving in the yellow car at the train station, and culminates (of course) in the train crash and its aftermath. Just to check my own sanity, I watched the same scene on the RS-55 and on a C3X 1080, and neither of those showed either the over-emphasis of the grain or the strange static grain behavior. So, I conclude that we had some setting in a not-ideal configuration on the 1000ES.

By the way, the RS55 looked superb on this scene as well, but I believe that the 1000ES -- leaving aside the grain issue for the moment -- was every bit as good in terms of blacks. The C3X 1080 had a visibly higher black floor and the typical DLP dither in the very dark areas, but it was still an extremely enjoyable and satisfying picture.

I do agree that it seems as if there's a non-trivial learning curve with the 1000ES on several levels, and some expert assistance would be really welcome.
post #1126 of 9657
One other thought: I suppose it's also possible that there was a difference in players. I viewed the 1000ES with a relatively low cost Sony player because the projector was very much in a temporary configuration, having just arrived. The other two projectors were connected to Kaleidescape M500 players. The 1000ES dealer has an M500 available, so if I go back I'll try to make sure we use it to remove that variable.
post #1127 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMike View Post

One other thought: I suppose it's also possible that there was a difference in players. I viewed the 1000ES with a relatively low cost Sony player because the projector was very much in a temporary configuration, having just arrived. The other two projectors were connected to Kaleidescape M500 players. The 1000ES dealer has an M500 available, so if I go back I'll try to make sure we use it to remove that variable.

FYI, if I havent posted it elsewhere, my source is the Oppo 93. All default video levels.
post #1128 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Turning off all the NR controls helps a lot.

Why would noise reduction exaggerate film grain? The negative side effect is to soften the picture, not make it sharper to make the noise stand out even more.
post #1129 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Why would noise reduction exaggerate film grain? The negative side effect is to soften the picture, not make it sharper to make the noise stand out even more.

It does though. For some reason the more you leave off the better or cleaner the image is. I'd say that is 90% of the time with Blu ray discs. Of course with DirecTV that is not the case. Of course then we aren't talking about film grain...
post #1130 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMike View Post

......By the way, the RS55 looked superb on this scene as well, but I believe that the 1000ES -- leaving aside the grain issue for the moment -- was every bit as good in terms of blacks. The C3X 1080 had a visibly higher black floor and the typical DLP dither in the very dark areas, but it was still an extremely enjoyable and satisfying picture.......


Now that is impressive to have blacks as good as the pj ring leader of black levels with the DLP like brightness.
post #1131 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

Now that is impressive to have blacks as good as the pj ring leader of black levels with the DLP like brightness.

Which is another reason why this projector is so addictive! It's very well rounded and has the best of many projectors built in. That and the 4K!
post #1132 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post

I have noticed that the projector seems to be really harsh on DirecTv.

For direct tv do you mean sd tv or hdtv?
post #1133 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

It does though. For some reason the more you leave off the better or cleaner the image is. I'd say that is 90% of the time with Blu ray discs. Of course with DirecTV that is not the case. Of course then we aren't talking about film grain...

Puzzling indeed. Has someone run a test pattern through it to see what is going on? The standard resolution charts will do.
post #1134 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Puzzling indeed. Has someone run a test pattern through it to see what is going on? The standard resolution charts will do.

I'm not knocking the 1000ES of course. The image is crystal clear and the best I have had to date in my theater. I will throw a couple test patterns up to look at this tonight. I noticed excessive grain during a trailor for Scarface blu ray too. Not a showstopper by any means.
post #1135 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Puzzling indeed. Has someone run a test pattern through it to see what is going on? The standard resolution charts will do.

I looked at some resolution test patterns and tried to see what is going on but couldn't tell. This is the noise reduction under reality creation tab. The patterns would change when I changed settings but that is all I could tell.
post #1136 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

I looked at some resolution test patterns and tried to see what is going on but couldn't tell. This is the noise reduction under reality creation tab. The patterns would change when I changed settings but that is all I could tell.

Thanks Randy. Are you able to take a shot and post it here?
post #1137 of 9657
I don't think this will help but I did take a few pictures trying to make out the difference. These were taken between 20 and 40 on the RC noise filter. I could see the changes easiest in these little patterns. I was getting cross-eyed looking at the full screen vertical and horizontal lines.

These patterns seemed to change randomly with as little as a single click of noise reduction. I just handheld the camera with autofocus but I still was having trouble getting the focus to lock on.

post #1138 of 9657
[quote=Randall Morton;21662097]I don't think this will help but I did take a few pictures trying to make out the difference. These were taken between 20 and 40 on the RC noise filter. I could see the changes easiest in these little patterns. I was getting cross-eyed looking at the full screen vertical and horizontal lines.

These patterns seemed to change randomly with as little as a single click of noise reduction. I just handheld the camera with autofocus but I still was having trouble getting the focus to lock on.


Just do a printscrn of the desktop. Then paste to a dashboard and save the image. Might be easier than taking a photo.
post #1139 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Just do a printscrn of the desktop. Then paste to a dashboard and save the image. Might be easier than taking a photo.

That will just capture what the video card thinks is being displayed, not what is really happening after both up-scaling and then it's noise processing.
post #1140 of 9657
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

That will just capture what the video card thinks is being displayed, not what is really happening after both up-scaling and then it's noise processing.

True. I forgot about the post processing from the projector after the video card.
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