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Sony VPL-vw1000 - Page 127

post #3781 of 9742
I agree with your thoughts on Hugo. Completely.

.No one here has tried modifying this thing. If you have a link to the modders in germany or any info into how thay are modifying it and why, please post..

I am really at a loss about what needs to be physically modded in this thing. An external CMS is needed but there are boxes which most of us use for that. The scaling could be better but soon(this year) external 4K scalers will be available.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/8/13 at 12:03pm
post #3782 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Thanks Mookie. Anyone else see the same issue?


Adidino, Mookie, Mark etc.

yes, I seen it too ( in ref it is darkere, but probely more correct to say higher gamma / maybe combined with lower brightness - the Cin1 has about 0,2 lower gamma like 2.0 versus 2.2 in ref )

the reason because off this difference, I think is because off the dynamic iris, I think it has different programs for ref and Cin1 - if I turn the iris off ( like off or manuel ) the two modes gets completly identical - please try to test yours too TIA.smile.gif ( in the full and limited dynamic iris mode there is change and most in dark scenes, where the almost black parts with the lower gamma - like 2.0 versus 2.2 - do, that you/ we better see the noise in cin1 ........in lighter scenes, they are more equel )

Even the sekundary colors change ( the yellow and cyan ) in ref versus cin1 , but I dont know, if thats because off a programming difference, or if the gamma/brightness change has something to do with it ( I dont think it should have ? ) because the yellow in ref gets more green in it - like carry ? - and the cyan gets a little more light blue.

What do you all see, when you test it ? ( in DVE, try black level test pattern with the allmost black bars and the color bars )

Just an ide smile.gif


dj
post #3783 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Adidino, Mookie, Mark etc.
yes, I seen it too ( in ref it is darkere, but probely more correct to say higher gamma / maybe combined with lower brightness - the Cin1 has about 0,2 lower gamma like 2.0 versus 2.2 in ref )
the reason because off this difference, I think is because off the dynamic iris, I think it has different programs for ref and Cin1 - if I turn the iris off ( like off or manuel ) the two modes gets completly identical - please try to test yours too TIA.smile.gif ( in the full and limited dynamic iris mode there is change and most in dark scenes, where the almost black parts with the lower gamma - like 2.0 versus 2.2 - do, that you/ we better see the noise in cin1 ........in lighter scenes, they are more equel )
Even the sekundary colors change ( the yellow and cyan ) in ref versus cin1 , but I dont know, if thats because off a programming difference, or if the gamma/brightness change has something to do with it ( I dont think it should have ? ) because the yellow in ref gets more green in it - like carry ? - and the cyan gets a little more light blue.
What do you all see, when you test it ? ( in DVE, try black level test pattern with the allmost black bars and the color bars )
Just an ide smile.gif
dj

Thanks for the feedback DJ. This is beyond the iris though as I did change the iris settings to be consistent for each preset. However, you may be on to something with the secondary colors. If you own the movie Prometheus, it's the best way for you to get a visual of what I'm seeing. Charlize Theron's face will distort with grain/noise with the Reference preset selected. Regardless of the other settings. I've spotted this behavior in other films as well. The last Mission Impossible movie comes to mind as one where I've seen the problem.

The trick here is you will not see this issue on most scenes in a movie which is likely why most of us believethe two modes are identical. With specific scenes, this issue is obvious.
post #3784 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Adidino, Mookie, Mark etc.
yes, I seen it too ( in ref it is darkere, but probely more correct to say higher gamma / maybe combined with lower brightness - the Cin1 has about 0,2 lower gamma like 2.0 versus 2.2 in ref )
the reason because off this difference, I think is because off the dynamic iris, I think it has different programs for ref and Cin1 - if I turn the iris off ( like off or manuel ) the two modes gets completly identical - please try to test yours too TIA.smile.gif ( in the full and limited dynamic iris mode there is change and most in dark scenes, where the almost black parts with the lower gamma - like 2.0 versus 2.2 - do, that you/ we better see the noise in cin1 ........in lighter scenes, they are more equel )
Even the sekundary colors change ( the yellow and cyan ) in ref versus cin1 , but I dont know, if thats because off a programming difference, or if the gamma/brightness change has something to do with it ( I dont think it should have ? ) because the yellow in ref gets more green in it - like carry ? - and the cyan gets a little more light blue.
What do you all see, when you test it ? ( in DVE, try black level test pattern with the allmost black bars and the color bars )
Just an ide smile.gif
dj

DJ, you're right. I just checked Tony's scene again from Prometheus....this time changing both pre-sets having the Iris on Auto Full to off.....and the picture doesn't change at all.

I think that's why when I did this on my first one I said I didn't notice it...I was still anti-iris then and had it off or on manual. I kind of like Auto Full for movies now.
post #3785 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookie b View Post

DJ, you're right. I just checked Tony's scene again from Prometheus....this time changing both pre-sets having the Iris on Auto Full to off.....and the picture doesn't change at all.
I think that's why when I did this on my first one I said I didn't notice it...I was still anti-iris then and had it off or on manual. I kind of like Auto Full for movies now.

Oh boy. Not good for me. I don't get those results. I am going to test it in a few though to be sure. You set the auto iris to off from full auto?
post #3786 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Oh boy. Not good for me. I don't get those results. I am going to test it in a few though to be sure. You set the auto iris to off from full auto?

Yeah, when I checked last night they were both on Full-Auto. That's when I saw what you were seeing.

Just now I put them both at OFF, and no change when switching from cinema 1 to reference.
post #3787 of 9742
Did anyone catch the Sony CES 2013 presentation?

Lots of mentions regarding tv's but nothing about the projector. frown.gif
post #3788 of 9742
I get a similar issue with faces on the new Spider-Man movie. Like you said, not all scenes. Most are fine. On those that were bad , Reality Creation exacerbated the problem, so I turned it off eralty on. I watched this before this discussion took place though so I didn't know to try changing out of Reference mode. I was also on auto full.
post #3789 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Oh boy. Not good for me. I don't get those results. I am going to test it in a few though to be sure. You set the auto iris to off from full auto?

I've not tested the Prometheus scene in particular, but did some testing with grey patterns from my Lumagen - 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 and 40 percent grey screen. I used an uncalibrated mode on the Lumagen to make sure there was no affect.

It seems Cinema 1 and Cinema 2 work one way, the same way, and the other modes work identically among themselves, but slightly differently from the Cinema modes. Settings are Identical in the setup and expert modes.

There are slight changes in the apparent brightness of the grey screens switching between the various modes (as Tony and I both use Roomie Remote, you can instantly switch calibration modes with no delay or screen blanking)

At some greyscale levels, the Cinema modes are a touch brighter, in other, a touch darker. It's interesting...not sure what it means, and in the vast majority of material I don't think you can tell, but I'm assuming this is all or part of what's contributing to these anomalies.
post #3790 of 9742
I have always used Cinema 1 for regular Blu ray watching and Digital for 3D. I have never been a fan of reference even though some said it was the brightest and ideal for 3D...eek.gif
post #3791 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I have always used Cinema 1 for regular Blu ray watching and Digital for 3D. I have never been a fan of reference even though some said it was the brightest and ideal for 3D...eek.gif

I think the question is, why is one preset better than another if it's just supposed to be a place holder for your preferred settings? Why would Reference be brighter than Cinema 1 or vice versa if the controlled settings match?
post #3792 of 9742
Mark don't you have the "ear" of some top Sony engineers? Could you pose a question about this to them?
post #3793 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookie b View Post

Yeah, when I checked last night they were both on Full-Auto. That's when I saw what you were seeing.
Just now I put them both at OFF, and no change when switching from cinema 1 to reference.

Concurred after further testing - iris on must have different min max values for the auto iris - with iris off for all calibration modes, the differences I saw disappeared.
Edited by thrang - 1/8/13 at 7:26am
post #3794 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I have always used Cinema 1 for regular Blu ray watching and Digital for 3D. I have never been a fan of reference even though some said it was the brightest and ideal for 3D...eek.gif

Agreed.

I also use Cinema 1 with gamma 10(which supposedly simulates the gamma curve of film)----I also have dialed colour to about 56(so lightly saturated)----but then again I am on a relatively small 92inch 1.0 screen with some degree of ambient light coming in.
I also have Auto Iris set to full on.

If I do use ref mode i set gamma to 2.4.
post #3795 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by tspotorno View Post

Did anyone catch the Sony CES 2013 presentation?
Lots of mentions regarding tv's but nothing about the projector. frown.gif

Unfortunately, I watched and heard every momemt of it. It was the worst of stage shows and I nodded off at the very end. Tthey really didn't go through all their new products and presented very little detail about anything except their new phones and their phones data transferring ability by touching them to the transferer. Oh yea, and their new line of headphones endorsed by Simon Cowl.

They introduced two smaller 4K flat pannel, something like a 65 and 55 incher. The tried to show off a OLED flat panel 48 inch or was it 58 inches but had a software glitch (production was a ways off, i.e., the unit was a prototype). They did mention their 4K server for purchasers of their 4K panels and that they would have a 4K content service up and running by the Summer. No details, not clear from Sony people whether on line downloads or disc (memory card). Re 4K bluray, their immediate plan was to use 4K sources for down rez and transfer to 1080p bluray. Holly Fecal. Sony. Only Sony.

The presentation was by the head of Sony hardware, the UK young guy, and he kept asking the audience questions and got indifferent responses. Kept telling them how cool the new stuff was and how only Sony could do it (with no baloney, just his pink balls in a suitcase). You could read in his awe of Sony studeos and that his side was able to gewt the content to distrubute to panel buyers. Nothing was said about content to 4K FP owners.

He did give some really big news re projectors. One or more of the new cameras had a projector built into it. WOW Fornicating WOW. He used the theme of wow but I think most of the audience were lulled to sleep by the time the wow theme came into play.

The message here is that if this is the response Sony came up with, its new products, selling headphones endorsed by Simon Cowl, and pink (speaker) balls to put in your suitcase, Sony is doomed. Actually rather scary

Forgot, they plan in the future to introduce a prosumer 4K camcorder (actually 4HD). Not ready yet. Also TV ways, they hyped expamded color gaumets (which would become useful accuracy ways when you get their new camcorder someday. Part of the WOW BS. Sony is doomed.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/8/13 at 8:43am
post #3796 of 9742
That's not good
post #3797 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Mark don't you have the "ear" of some top Sony engineers? Could you pose a question about this to them?

I am not sure if there is a question to ask. It would seem from the testing done by you guys, there are more settings for the DI than off, limited, and full. There appear to behidden subsets of limited and/or full which come into play by mode selection. Whole problem would have gone away if all DI possible selections were listed, expanding the present list of off, full, or limited, and each mode (reference, bright TV etc) list the true DI mode defaulted to
This way one could change the DI setting to the one used in reference instead of the one used in whatever which has the intensity blacks turned up (by lowering the gamma at the low end), distorting the colors and making noise more visable. I doubt the US guys ever saw it before or will try and do anything about it.

So what to do. Use the reference mode and change the settings to in essence make your own film mode but without the fecaled up different DI setting.f
post #3798 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Concurred after further testing - iris on must have different min max values for them auto iris - when off for all calibration modes, the differences I saw disappeared.

So this is interesting feedback. I guess the question is why would the min/max values be different for each mode? This still brings us back to the point that each preset is not just a place holder.
post #3799 of 9742
Mark

Re the mods in Germany

They seem convinced of some issues with the 1000 that they have discovered, advised Sony and are working on fixing.

although they love the unit and it replaced ( or possibly not replaced Ill need to check) their Sim2 for reference, I got this from them previously

"We started tuning on the unit. Only with dedicated filters the result is impressive. More detail, more definition in black, more depth and less dithering problems....
>>>> And more dynamics in sound. But still problems. The mids sound too thin and still a loss of punch in bass...."

they are convinced that the Sony /processor interface introduces AUDIO distortion - seriously I kid you not, and that this has an affect on sound and I think also picture.

Oh and going direct from BD player to PJ is no good apparently-Im not clear why even though in his broken English he explained.

their favourite processor is their heavily moded Denon AVP.
post #3800 of 9742
The projector really sucks as an audio processor. The enginers don't have the proper inputs and outputs for that and there is a triple hi level user code to get into the audio processor menu. :)it
post #3801 of 9742
lol yes i was most sceptical too Mark but i tell u they make pretty convincing arguments and Im certainly they know what they are doing

people who have experienced their mods and been to their evaluation theatre are many and knowledgeable

they have an improvement of sound over HDMI too that Im hoping to evaluate soon-being a cable kind of guy!

laugh...i almost did....
post #3802 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The message here is that if this is the response Sony came up with, its new products, selling headphones endorsed by Simon Cowl, and pink (speaker) balls to put in your suitcase, Sony is doomed. Actually rather scary

I was wondering if there was any reason to regret my RED pre-order, and you've confirmed that it was not a mistake.

Still wondering why Sony isn't giving any love to 1000ES users with the content delivery "rental" if this is the best they could come up with.
post #3803 of 9742
Another subject: So what is with the top scorebar on ESPN 3D football telecasts? Its cutoff about half way. I saw mention on Twitter so it isn't just the 1000ES with the issue. Did everybody else have this? (This is on DirecTV BTW).

(and no, it wasn't an overscan issue)

Not a huge deal since it won't be long since there will be nothing but X Games on ESPN 3D. Can't even get NBA in 3D any more. mad.gif
post #3804 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecossecableman View Post

lol yes i was most sceptical too Mark but i tell u they make pretty convincing arguments and Im certainly they know what they are doing
people who have experienced their mods and been to their evaluation theatre are many and knowledgeable
they have an improvement of sound over HDMI too that Im hoping to evaluate soon-being a cable kind of guy!
laugh...i almost did....

i am not skeptical. i just was amused by their answer to a projetor question including audio matters.

i still can't determine what their video mods are except changing some filtering.
post #3805 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by turls View Post

I was wondering if there was any reason to regret my RED pre-order, and you've confirmed that it was not a mistake.
Still wondering why Sony isn't giving any love to 1000ES users with the content delivery "rental" if this is the best they could come up with.


My guess is the the head of Sony got the studeo side over strong objections to provide some 4K content as a way of stimulating 4K hardware sales. Panels are the king, panels are where the market is and will be. Can you image, we want you to give it to the projector schmoes too. They already bought it but we want to be fair, so bail out the hardware projector folks too. and this is going to make 4K more successful, if we do this how many more 4K 1000ES will you sell? Err. Thats why Turls.
post #3806 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post


Unfortunately, I watched and heard every momemt of it. It was the worst of stage shows and I nodded off at the very end. Tthey really didn't go through all their new products and presented very little detail about anything except their new phones and their phones data transferring ability by touching them to the transferer. Oh yea, and their new line of headphones endorsed by Simon Cowl. .....

Sad to read your report, Mark.    Still happy with the VW1000, though, even with only 1080 input; with true 4K input, however, .... .

post #3807 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecossecableman View Post

Mark
Re the mods in Germany
They seem convinced of some issues with the 1000 that they have discovered, advised Sony and are working on fixing.
although they love the unit and it replaced ( or possibly not replaced Ill need to check) their Sim2 for reference, I got this from them previously
"We started tuning on the unit. Only with dedicated filters the result is impressive. More detail, more definition in black, more depth and less dithering problems....
>>>> And more dynamics in sound. But still problems. The mids sound too thin and still a loss of punch in bass...."
they are convinced that the Sony /processor interface introduces AUDIO distortion - seriously I kid you not, and that this has an affect on sound and I think also picture.
Oh and going direct from BD player to PJ is no good apparently-Im not clear why even though in his broken English he explained.
their favourite processor is their heavily moded Denon AVP.

Who shall be these mysterious Germans?

I'm just curious who makes such claims, because I'm from Germany. And I hope it is not the one I think it is.
post #3808 of 9742
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Sad to read your report, Mark.    Still happy with the VW1000, though, even with only 1080 input; with true 4K input, however, .... .

All I did was watch the press conference.There is no reason for a press conference unless the press can ask questions. Conference implies cross communications, not the presenter asking self serving questions and then not getting any answers to such questions as how cool is that and are you wowed?.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/8/13 at 12:19pm
post #3809 of 9742
They claim the PJ causes "noise" in th audio chain and separately that their HDMI cable improves audio over HDMI.

I hear doubt in your response. As ever without seeing/knowing what they really do I recommend your keep an open mind.

These guys have a growing reputation in germany and spreading throughout Europe. Google Cinemike
post #3810 of 9742
Coop330

Do share...
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