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Sony VPL-vw1000 - Page 14

post #391 of 4372
12/10/11 at 4:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal_Sunshine View Post

Cine4Home has a preview:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...00_Preview.htm

That's a bit more encouraging. The review states tha the projector can not process a future 4k signal at 50 or 60 hz. How much of a concern is it that the 1000, via its 1.4 hdmi can only do 4k resolution at at 24 or 30p? How much does this effect how future proof the 1000 is? If I purchase a projector for big money, I want to keep it for at least 5 years and not be prohibited from future 4k signals. Maybe field upgradable hdmi path? ...unlikely.

Cheaper versions of Sony 4k projectors will follow in future years, as Cine4 states, but not likely at the 1000's (hopefully) high ansi lumens, and certainly with a downgraded lense.
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post #392 of 4372
12/10/11 at 6:25am
I love reading Ekkehart's reviews; even with a rough translation to English it is easy to read and understand what he is saying. I especially like the 3-dimensional CIE chart. This projector looks like a real contender, and if they can improve with the final version it will be a big hit. Of course its price point is a little high, but there are still some among us that can and will spring for it if the final version hits its performance targets.
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post #393 of 4372
12/10/11 at 6:55am
The real limiation of the VW1000 as this point is that the HDMI std. only has limited support for 4K and the projector is built with those limitations. As noted above with the VW1000, higher refresh rates are not supported and also 3D, even at 24Hz, is not supported. Since there are no consumer 4K video sources currently available, we really don't know if there will be another generation of HDMI released (supporting more 4K capabilities) by the time such 4K sources become a reality. I do expect that for commercial digital cinemas there will be 4K 3D at refresh rates at least up to 48Hz (think Avatar 2 and 3), but it's unknown it or when such capabilities will make it to the consumer marketplace. Since the Blu-ray Disc Association is now considering 4K (being pushed by Sony), it will likely be at least a couple of years before we know the answer to where 4K is going for the consumer market and the VW1000 may only support the most basic version of such a 4K set of capabilities (i.e., 2160p/24 2D). If I were considering a VW1000 today, I would not assume there will any upgrade path to add higher refresh rates or 3D for 4K.
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post #394 of 4372
12/10/11 at 7:07am
Wow. The super close up images showing the "reality creation" on and off is very impressive. It reminds me of the difference people post between DVD and Blu-Ray versions of a film.

And the effects look better than the same comparison they showed from JVC's 4K-lite technology.

That does look promising.
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post #395 of 4372
12/10/11 at 8:23am
I agree, now it begin to look more promising

Just hope that the native Cr goes up to maybe 50 K - 100K
The DI gets faster like that on the 95ES ( dont care if its 500 K or 800 K DI CR )
The motionflow is as good as minimum the 95
The panel alignment is superb
The lens memory is more precise then the 95
3D use the same new lamp technic as the 30/95 or even a better one ( for even lesser ghosting )
The MV´s work the same way on this projector as on 30/95

that the small "bugs" Cine4home did find, is corrected

And if I have to bee demanding - software updates posibility for new functions and improved scalings etc.


dj
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post #396 of 4372
12/10/11 at 8:29am
Unlike some, I don't really care about the 4K performance of this projector. I don't even care a lot about the 3D. What I want to see is how does it compare to a Sim2 Lumis?

If the production model of this projector even comes close to the specs it should compete favorably with the Lumis having a higher on/off contrast ratio and similar or better lumen output for a lot less money. At this point it seems that it won't meet specs.
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post #397 of 4372
12/10/11 at 9:28am
I agree the ability to show native 4K (and also 3D) has no interest for me. Who knows when we'll see readily available 4K content? When it does appear, don't expect to find it at Netflix or Blockbuster anytime soon! Purchasing will likely be the only option initially, and it will be expensive. Personally, the only movies I buy are the ones I'll watch over and over, and they are rare. If I was buying a projector to display 4K content, I would wait until that content was available.

The upscaling is far more interesting, and looks promising. If it lives up to it's potential, this could be very nice! This is a benefit that can be enjoyed today- unlike native 4K, which is maybe years away. By that time, technology will have certainly evolved.

Ignoring all of this, this Sony still looks like a strong competitor. For roughly the same price as an entry-level 3 chipper, the Sony has better contrast, less noise, and perhaps more lumens. It should also throw a better widescreen image when not using an anamorphic lens. Top-level 3 chippers like the Sim2 will cost maybe 50% more, and yet still lose to the Sony in some areas. Sony's other projectors have been relatively bug free, and well received. I'm hopeful Sony will release the 1000 with the same level of refinement. If so, the big boys are gonna have some strong competition!
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post #398 of 4372
12/10/11 at 9:56am
It will be very interesting to see how the production unit compares to the JVC4K/Meridian 810 at a fraction of the price, I have a funny feeling it will blow it away
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post #399 of 4372
12/10/11 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigsMovies View Post

I agree the ability to show native 4K (and also 3D) has no interest for me. Who knows when we'll see readily available 4K content? When it does appear, don't expect to find it at Netflix or Blockbuster anytime soon! Purchasing will likely be the only option initially, and it will be expensive. Personally, the only movies I buy are the ones I'll watch over and over, and they are rare. If I was buying a projector to display 4K content, I would wait until that content was available.

The upscaling is far more interesting, and looks promising. If it lives up to it's potential, this could be very nice! This is a benefit that can be enjoyed today- unlike native 4K, which is maybe years away. By that time, technology will have certainly evolved.

Ignoring all of this, this Sony still looks like a strong competitor. For roughly the same price as an entry-level 3 chipper, the Sony has better contrast, less noise, and perhaps more lumens. It should also throw a better widescreen image when not using an anamorphic lens. Top-level 3 chippers like the Sim2 will cost maybe 50% more, and yet still lose to the Sony in some areas. Sony's other projectors have been relatively bug free, and well received. I'm hopeful Sony will release the 1000 with the same level of refinement. If so, the big boys are gonna have some strong competition!

I very much agree with your comments, and those of Randall Morton above yours: 4K input will not appear in significant amount for yrs--it's all about how this pj produces a pic with 1080p input. If it can come close to its specs--e.g., as close as the 95ES comes to its--then it will be quite a product.
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post #400 of 4372
12/10/11 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

The review was done with the implicit understanding that a follow up would be conducted on a full production unit later. Think of it as a sneak peek. Tom is a very thorough reviewer so at a minimum it was a great chance for someone that knows what he's doing to give it a good run through and let Sony know what bugs he found. That certainly can't hurt!

I agree. That preliminary review will be used by Sony to improve the short comings of the projector. I fully expect the final version to be completely different from was reviewed. A much brighter 95ES able to accept and display 4k native would still be a sweet machine.
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post #401 of 4372
12/10/11 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I agree. That preliminary review will be used by Sony to improve the short comings of the projector. I fully expect the final version to be completely different from was reviewed. A much brighter 95ES able to accept and display 4k native would still be a sweet machine.


I already thinks ( and hope ) , that the projector Cine4home has, is a newer and better version off the 1000ES - because it allready has far better data : on/off CR ( 500 K cal. -700 K uncal. versus 152 K ), better colors OTB, higher native CR ( 12 K- 20 K versus 2372 ), more precise gamma and better scaling

Ekkehart
Is it correct that you / Cine4home has a other 1000ES then the one hometheater.com had for test !?


dj
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post #402 of 4372
12/10/11 at 1:25pm
What I would be interested in is information about how good the lens is in comparison to other projectors, e.g. VW95, or Lumis, and how sharp the image is. Can the Sony rival DLP sharpness with the VW1000 now?
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post #403 of 4372
12/10/11 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Wow. The super close up images showing the "reality creation" on and off is very impressive. It reminds me of the difference people post between DVD and Blu-Ray versions of a film.

And the effects look better than the same comparison they showed from JVC's 4K-lite technology.

That does look promising.

I was trying to find cine4home's earlier review/preview of the new JVC's, testing the e-shifht 4K-like on the St Mark's cathedral, to compare side-by-side with these with the 1000--but can't find it. Anyone know how to retrieve it?
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post #404 of 4372
12/10/11 at 2:35pm
Here it is:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...70_Preview.htm

Translated:

http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/tran...70_Preview.htm
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post #405 of 4372
12/10/11 at 2:45pm
It do look even better then the X90´s , but again, screen shoots ( even Cine4home´s )should allways be taken with a "pinch of salt"

Maybe Ekkehart can commend ?


dj
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post #406 of 4372
12/10/11 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

What I would be interested in is information about how good the lens is in comparison to other projectors, e.g. VW95, or Lumis, and how sharp the image is. Can the Sony rival DLP sharpness with the VW1000 now?



+1


dj
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post #407 of 4372
12/10/11 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

It do look even better then the X90´s , but again, screen shoots ( even Cine4home´s )should allways be taken with a "pinch of salt"

Maybe Ekkehart can commend ?


dj

Very true, though as you hinted, Ekkehart's are probably the best one can do. (However I doubt we will get him to commit too much re a direct comparison; he has to be a bit diplomatic! Also, he has not yet reviewed the final production model of either of these units.)
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post #408 of 4372
12/10/11 at 3:46pm
Resized to similar sizes:

Attachment 230395 Sony

Attachment 230396 JVC
LL
LL
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post #409 of 4372
12/10/11 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Ekkehart
Is it correct that you / Cine4home has a other 1000ES then the one hometheater.com had for test !?


dj



I dont know what machine Hometheater.com had for their test, so I can not answer that question.

Regards,
Ekki
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post #410 of 4372
12/10/11 at 4:53pm
For everyone who wants to see the Cinema-Reality in action, we made a Preview-Video

As always in german language, but you can see many of its features and menu options even without understanding german.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zStevY7wegk


Have fun!

Regards,
EKki
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post #411 of 4372
12/10/11 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

That's a bit more encouraging. The review states tha the projector can not process a future 4k signal at 50 or 60 hz. How much of a concern is it that the 1000, via its 1.4 hdmi can only do 4k resolution at at 24 or 30p? How much does this effect how future proof the 1000 is? If I purchase a projector for big money, I want to keep it for at least 5 years and not be prohibited from future 4k signals. Maybe field upgradable hdmi path? ...unlikely.

Cheaper versions of Sony 4k projectors will follow in future years, as Cine4 states, but not likely at the 1000's (hopefully) high ansi lumens, and certainly with a downgraded lense.


DCI machines are mostly 2K not 4K. And the sources the big special boys who have movie theater source hook ups mostly have 2K machines, The feeds are 2K not 4K.

My question is what's the difference between say a 2K machine and a 2K DCI machine. Does having a filter and a DCI preset using the filter make it a DCI machine. I don't think so but I am asking. I frankly am not troubled that the machine won't take in 4K at 60 over twin HDMI's.

And this machine is only a big buck machine in terms of the $10K class boys. For a big boy, the street price of the Sony is less than they paid for a plasma a few years back. This machine is not for the $5K projector crowd, to them it is big bucks but it just isn't big bucks in the 2K or 4K market of even in the Sim2 and DP 1080p class machines.
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post #412 of 4372
12/10/11 at 7:15pm
Don't Dci machines require the capability to handle a higher bandwidth signal that Dci sources are encoded at/require?
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post #413 of 4372
12/10/11 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Resized to similar sizes:

Attachment 230395 Sony

Attachment 230396 JVC

Tx much for this! Boy, it's hard for me to see much difference; and what there is seems maybe to favor the JVC.

What do others think?

PS On further looking, maybe the Sony looks a bit sharper. ??
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post #414 of 4372
12/10/11 at 8:14pm
It's not the same frame so it's impossible to compare objectively.

In motion, even harder I would think?

There would be gamma tweaking going on in DRC with the Sony, the scaling looks good. On/off CR would be better in the JVC, with 1080p sources which would be the better value?
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post #415 of 4372
12/11/11 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

I dont know what machine Hometheater.com had for their test, so I can not answer that question.

Regards,
Ekki


I understand, if it can be a "hint", Tom did write that the projector had over 160 hours on it, when he recieved it. So if your´s had under say 160 - 200 hour on it, when you recieved it !? it cant be the same

BTW. Are you reviewing the 95ES too ?


Regards

dj
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post #416 of 4372
12/11/11 at 8:55am
It seems to me that the JVCs are flashing two times 1920 x 1080 pixels on the screen while the Sony is flashing 4096 x 2160 pixels on the screen. To me this means that the Sony is flashing over twice as many pixels. Both are scaled 1080p images and scaling does indeed soften an image and the image must then be sharpened (as part of the scaling process). Thus I would think that because the JVC uses less pixels it would appear slightly sharper than the Sony when in fact it really isn't. Frankly, making a choice here based on perceived sharpness is specious at best. Pixel density on a super large screen may be more of a consideration. For normal size screens I just don't get 4K over say 2K or 1080p. Far more important would be bit rate etc. Wider coded color spaces and doing away with the artifacts caused by low consumer bit rates etc. Regardless. I want the Sony.
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post #417 of 4372
12/11/11 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

I understand, if it can be a "hint", Tom did write that the projector had over 160 hours on it, when he recieved it. So if your´s had under say 160 - 200 hour on it, when you recieved it !? it cant be the same

BTW. Are you reviewing the 95ES too ?


Regards

dj


VW1000 had 23 hours, we got it about two weeks ago.

And yes, we are going to do a full VW95 review.

Regards,
EKki
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post #418 of 4372
12/11/11 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

I understand, if it can be a "hint", Tom did write that the projector had over 160 hours on it, when he recieved it. So if your´s had under say 160 - 200 hour on it, when you recieved it !? it cant be the same

BTW. Are you reviewing the 95ES too ?


Regards

dj


After your video, I can answer the question my self no, its not the same, because in your video the lamp time show 23 Hours - so it cant be that one, unless you had it first ( and then shipped it to Hometheather ) and I dont think thats the case - right !?


THANKS, Ekkehart for the very informative ( and very positive ) preview video - speciel the picture with the 2K versus 4K upscalling was great to see ( and very impressive )

Regards

dj
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post #419 of 4372
12/11/11 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Tx much for this! Boy, it's hard for me to see much difference; and what there is seems maybe to favor the JVC.

What do others think?

PS On further looking, maybe the Sony looks a bit sharper. ??

Millerwill

Please see the video Ekkehart provided, even if you dont understand german ( I do , because "we" are neighbors, so german is mandatory in school ) because there you really can see what the upscalling to 4K do - wow, very impressive .


dj
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post #420 of 4372
12/11/11 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

VW1000 had 23 hours, we got it about two weeks ago.

And yes, we are going to do a full VW95 review.

Regards,
EKki


You ( and your team ) are the best and I love the german thoroughness, thats why I weigh your opion higher then most off the other reviews - thanks again, it is much appreciated


Regards

dj
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