Sony VPL-vw1000 - Page 132

I use film projection on for any 23.98 or so fps. While I don't see any flicker with film projection (dark frame insertion on), I don't see flicker with it off. DFI just makes the motion seen smoother. But I would ask, if you doubled the frame rate, why would this be perceived as in increase in flicker?
Edited by mark haflich - 1/24/13 at 3:25pm

You'd never see flicker with DFI off because SXRD/LCOS/LCD are sample-and-hold technologies. The 'default' state is not black, unlike plasma and CRT. There is no scanning or flashing of the image.

Therefore, the frequency with which dark frames are inserted becomes of utmost importance to avoid flicker when DFI is enables. Similarly, on Panasonic's plasmas, for example, the frequency at which 24p content is played back is of utmost importance. Their lower end TVs flicker in 24p mode, since they only frame double to 48Hz. Thee higher end frame quadruples to 96Hz, which yields an acceptable 96Hz flicker.

But again, with LCOS/LCD, there's no such thing as 'frame doubling' or 'frame quadrupling'. Unless you're inserting dark frames or interpolated frames.

Thanks for the feedback. Looks like Sony figured out DFI for 24p content on the VW1000. Not sure what's holding them back from proper implementation in all their other projectors.
Edited by sarangiman - 1/25/13 at 4:49pm

I drew up a little schematic of how I think DFI should work; here it is as a PDF:

http://cl.ly/MQB9

I believe the HW30/50 & VW95 are all using (2) in my schematic; namely, 96Hz processing with 48Hz flicker (frame doubling, then inserting a black frame between each frame).

I'd assume the VW1000 is at least using (3); namely 144Hz processing with 72Hz flicker (frame tripling, then inserting a black frame between each frame), if not higher.

72Hz flicker should not be objectionable. 48Hz flicker is. There are diminishing returns as you go to the higher frequency processing modes (4) & (5); in fact, they may be undesirable as asking the liquid crystal arrays to switch 240 times/sec is likely impractical.

144 times/sec (for 72Hz flicker) should not be impractical since apparently the HW50 can do 120 times/sec just fine, since that's what it needs to do for DFI with 60p content (which it handles just fine).

Note the cost in brightness for all the different modes should be the same, as I show in my schematics (total duration of dark frames remains the same; frequency increases and duration of each individual dark frame decreases).
Edited by sarangiman - 1/24/13 at 4:14pm

Nice schematic. However, I was told there would be no math.

Ha Nice home theater build, btw.

Suppose I should mention the other possibilites of DFI that would not lead to the same loss in brightness across different processing modes. For example, in the 144Hz processing mode, you could handle the DFI in two different ways: one costs less brightness but causes flicker, while the other costs more brightness but reduces flicker:

144Hz Processing, frame-sextupling:

1-1-D-1-1-D | 2-2-D-2-2-D
----1/24s---- |----2/24s----
48Hz flicker, 2/6 frames are dark frames

... instead of:

1-D-1-D-1-D | 2-D-2-D-2-D
----1/24s---- |----2/24s----
72Hz flicker, every other frame is a dark frame

The first case only causes a 33% loss in brightness (2 out of every 6 frames is a dark frame); the latter causes 50% loss in brightness (every other frame is a dark frame).

So there are ways you could play with this algorithm to cause more/less drop in brightness. Given that the HW50 does not lose that much brightness when DFI is enabled, I wonder if they're using something more like the former. In the two schemes above, I would prefer the latter... less brightness, but no flicker.

I tried googling for any Sony documentation on their DFI. I know I was supplied with things years as technical selling aids but they are not on the net. the only thing i could find is the sony 1000es us running at 120 and the picture dims but not drastically with gilm projection (DFI) on. No flicker that i can see. So for every two seconds we get 5 lit frames and five black frames. My question is that completing the writing of the lit frame and extinguishing it to black takes some time. 2.5 ms to write and 2.5 ms to extinguish so the diagrams in this thread are not entirely accurate.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/25/13 at 9:34pm

It's a miracle. I have officially held on to the same projector for almost a year. Very excited to have the 1000 for this year's Superbowl! Planning popcorn, pizza, sliders, cake and cotton candy too!

Yes, it's hard to get very excited about any kind of upgrade at this time.

OMG, I just realised that same when you said that!! Where did the last 12 months go?? I was sitting back watching an episode of Arrow last night and thinking how much I enjoy the PQ on this unit.

Me too. i have no desire to change projectors. If someone said, here give me yours and you can pick something else, I would say it would have to be 4K, and at this point I don't want a commercialtheater machine like a big barco. I don't have the space od need the lumens.

No kidding. I was so lucky with the timing on the Sony. It blows away anything else I would have bought, and I would have paid at 3/4th of what I paid for Sony for much less performance, options, etc. And besides that, I don't plan on upgrading any time soon, and nothing better is on the horizon that I can tell for my screen size. If my room had not been so delayed I might have made a big mistake (I know I might have been able to sell the other mistake, but it still would have cost $$$).

Thanks again to Mark for help move it up my list on my radar!

And of all the years to get my room done, only the 4th time any of "my teams" have made it to the championship...GO RAVENS!

Any of you guys have a 1.9:1 screen with this projector?

Mine is 2.0:1 (144x72).    I display 16x9 sources as 17x9 (136x72), and 2.35 sources as 144"W and whatever height it is (i.e., 60" or 61", depending on whether it's 2.35 or 2.40, etc.).    The zoom and lens memory is really appreciated to make this so convenient.    [I have a 8" wide vertical masking panel I insert for the 136x72 pic, but don't bother masking the 2.35 pic, simply lens shifting it to line up with the bottom of the screen, so that the horizontal black bar is all at the top and unobtrusive.]

 

PS   I also have Mark H to thank for talking me into the idea of going for the 1000!

I'm trying to decide on a screen to buy come next February 2014 and it will be 4k, either this Sony or something better for less, which probably ain't happening. Don't know if I should go with a 1.78:1 or 1.9:1

Hey guys...its finaly time for me to get ready to pull the trigger on a pj and I have been eyeing this one. Anyone using this on an a really large screen..like 15-16 wide 2:35 with no high gain?? I spoke to a few people who think it will work, but the calculators tell me it will have me at less than 10fl, so I'm not sure where to go from here. If not this, would have to look at something from Sim or Runco or Dpi and spend more $$. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Everybody's situation and preferences vary, so this is indeed something you have to think through very carefully and decide what is most imp to YOU.    For me and my room, 12ft wide was the largest that would fit the wall, and I wanted to take full advantage of it.     But with a 2.35 screen of this width it would be only ~60" high, and I didn't want to restrict my 16x9 pics to be this small (60x107).     So these were the parameters that most influenced my choice (going for 72"H and 144"W, as described above).    I have been extremely pleased with how this has worked for me, but again, everyone has there own preferences and will likely come to various decisions.

Here ( post 42 - date : 9/8/11 ) I want one, and here ( 2013 ) i get one .................cant say it was a impulse purchase

dj

You are really pushing it. I have unity gain or a little less at at about 13.5' wide at almost minimum throw. You are going much larger area wise than that. But my material is AT, and the lumens were decent even at 700 hours on the bulb. So there are a lot of variables you didn't mention. Its possible but 3D is going to probably suffer even if 2D doesn't.

Actually that was the biggest size screen that was motorized masking from Seymour AV (wasn't going to go custom to get higher), or I could have gone a little larger. You are only going to buy the screen once, if you don't light it all up, at least you are ready for the next brighter projector.

Bottom line it is not a xenon bulb but it is still a high wattage UHD lamp. When I was trying to decide I just had to keep in mind the bulb--you can rule a lot out just by looking at the bulb specs.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply! I was afraid this would be pushing it. The goal is actually a much longer throw(25ft+) and really light up the screen. I'm going with the Seymour 4k as well. I may have to move on from the Sony, it just had so many reasons to like it.

That stinks cause I'm planning on a 16' wide 2:35. I have also been checking other offerings..barco, christie, runco...I just liked the features of the Sony. Stinks for me I guess. I figure I will probably need something with over 2000lumens

For that kind of width, you are better off looking at something like a DPI. That requires a lot of light.

And the Sony despite published specifications won't put out 2000 lumens. Calibrated with some bulb wear I would expect about 1300 lumens. Maybe a little more depending on bulb hours.

Thank you for the response guys, I appreciate it. I can feel my pocket squeezing down to hold the money in, but I guess its inevitably going ot be a bigger purchase than I expected. Just hate to give up 4k!

W.Mayer was using the VW1000 on a very large screen(7M). He ended up using a 1.25 Isco to help with the brightness.
See link below.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1389225/4k-sony-vw-1000-first-short-test/240

get one off this ( its the SRX-R515 )





spec:


Brightness

15,000lm / 11,000lm


Resolution

4096 x 2160


Contrast ratio

over 5,000:1


Digital video input

HDMI x 2


Dimensions / Weight

W546 x H570 x D1015 / 150kg



Power requirement

AC 200-240V, 50-60Hz, Single-phase

And acording to Mark H. in US its only gona cost arround 45K - its a steal


On a more serius note, I did find the EN4K to be a to low gain screen for my "small" 110" wide 2.40:1 screen, especially for 3D
But a HP 2.4 gain with a 5 m wide 2.40:1 in 2D would not be a problem with the 1000ES IMO.


dj

For info ( and fun + people who "demeans" the 1000Es because of missing CMS ) check out the :

Cine4Home HighEnd Edition… Sony VPL-VW1000

At the : http://cine4home.de/


Some teaser:

Alle von uns überprüften VW1000 lagen mit ihrer Maximalhelligkeit zwischen 1900 und 2100 Lumen, nur ein Gerät unterlag hauchdünn mit 1860 Lumen.

Durch die Kalibrierung verliert der 1000er moderate 19% Helligkeit und bietet so bei korrekter Farbdarstellung ein Lichtvolumen zwischen 1600 und 1700 Lumen (im hohen Lampenmodus). Dies sind hervorragende Werte, die den VPL-VW1000 in der Tat auch für größere Bildbreiten qualifizieren.


And a picture:









dj

Could somebody please post an English translation of the linked cite. I don't have the computer skills to translate it when I call it up. Thanks

The current rumor for the coming sony is a lot more than $45K and a delay until the 2nd Q.
Edited by mark haflich - 2/3/13 at 8:35am

Here you go Mark. Google Translate isn't always the best but it should suffice:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&twu=1&u=http://cine4home.de/knowhow/Cine4Home_Edition_Sony_VW1000/Sony_VPL_VW1000-C4HEd.htm