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Sony VPL-vw1000 - Page 204

post #6091 of 9661
Joe. Here is the issue. Many of us already own Darblets, so we must consider your conclusion that with the Darbee (built in) it is better. Based on conversation with true video professionals (you and I are not), the consensus is the Darbee process should be applied at the resolution of the source before any upconversion. That means put it just after the source (e.g., Bluray player, set top box). With the Oppo its there with respect to discs played by the Oppo. Regarding outside souces, I don't think you can do this but I don't know. I think you need to go through the MediaTek chip and upscale to 1080p. But I don't have an Oppo 103D to test. Obviously, as far as upscling to 4K by a Bluray player, unless the Darbee is built in, you can't apply the Darbee until after the conversion to 4K and the Darblet only processes up to 1080p 60, it can't be applied to 4K. So the Oppo has an advantage there IF the upconversion to 4K is better in the Oppo than further down the chain. To determine this, the Darbee must be turned off because your conclusion with it on is muddled. Muddling should be left to things like Mojitoes.

Using a 4K Lumagen, the Darbee is built in and appears in the chain right after the inputs and before any upconversion.. Now the test is 4K out of the Lumagen vs native or something else out of the Lumagen and to 4K by the projector.

Whatever. The Oppo is complex, has been known to have problems because of its complexity etc. On the Oppo threads, owners suggest if you are just going to use it as a Bluray blayer, one will have an easier life buying something else, a simple $100 Bluray player. Particularly if one already owns a Darblet.

It is rather critical here in our (your) evaluation of the Oppo, as to whether upconversion of Bluray 1080p 24 without application of the Darbee process is better performed by the Oppo or by the Sony 1000ES. Then with the Darbee process applied but the Oppo outputting 1080p 24. Then you could try one of your (our) lesser bluray players with Darbee applied at the output (of course at native)
Edited by mark haflich - 10/14/13 at 12:54pm
post #6092 of 9661
Guys, I still don t know when one should/can use the 2.35 memory on the vw1000? Isn t it best to always use this because then the complete panel is used?
post #6093 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Guys, I still don t know when one should/can use the 2.35 memory on the vw1000? Isn t it best to always use this because then the complete panel is used?

Yes, I always use '2.35 zoom' for the reason you note. But other folks don't, preferring 'Normal' for 16x9 sources.
post #6094 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

With the Built in Darbee without a doubt yes. The image is sharper. Without hurting it. The 790 is of course no slouch but even 3D is nicer on the latest models. The 103D for sure. I recently had here the panny 330, Sammy 7500 and they are both better with 3D as well. With all the bells and whistles (which are effective) in the new Oppo it is worth getting one this year since 4K is still probably at least a year off...

Joe, As Mark described, I have a Darblet that is in the chain just before the 1000. From the BD player I send out unprocessed 1080p, through the Darblet, into the pj and upconversion there. (DirecTV also goes unprocessed through the Darblet, etc.)

I'm sure the Oppo103D is a nice product, but I am unconvinced that it can add much to this. I DO want to see Oppo's 4KBD when it comes out.
post #6095 of 9661
It all boils down to the SI's upconversion to UHD vs the Sony 1000ES internal upconversions. Awaiting reviews, observations by others. etc
post #6096 of 9661
I totally get what both of you are saying. My best point is simple. The Darblet in the 103D is like a next gen model which works with much better results. It's like the original on steroids. And yes I have it here to compare.
post #6097 of 9661
Millerwill.... what is your opionion of the Darblet vs no darblet with the sony as the end source of projection? I really didn't know anything about the Darblet but since this is a hobby of mine, I'm always willing to play around if it improves the picture. Your thoughts???? Does it improve things, would you really notice if someone disconnected it? It is just hard to think such a cheap little item could improve upon the Sony image without causing more artifact harm then good. I look forward to yoru comments or from others using the darblet with the sony 1000. Thanks!
post #6098 of 9661
You would have to test by using an external 1080p source then through the Darbee and then into the Oppo with the Oppo Darbee shut off. Then the external without the darbee into the Oppo with the Oppos Darbee turned on. Is the degree of Darbee selectable in the Oppo. If not you would need to know what it was and then set the external darbee to match. To my knowledge, the darbee algs used by 3rd party licensees are no different than what the darblet uses.
post #6099 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post

Millerwill.... what is your opionion of the Darblet vs no darblet with the sony as the end source of projection? I really didn't know anything about the Darblet but since this is a hobby of mine, I'm always willing to play around if it improves the picture. Your thoughts???? Does it improve things, would you really notice if someone disconnected it? It is just hard to think such a cheap little item could improve upon the Sony image without causing more artifact harm then good. I look forward to yoru comments or from others using the darblet with the sony 1000. Thanks!

I had it for a while. I thought it did more harm than good. It varied too much by source the amount of effectiveness. YMMV.
post #6100 of 9661
I think the vast majority of users like it. It works best if applied at the native resolution of the source and before any upscaling. The Darbee effect can be applied from 1 to 120 in step increments. Default is in 5 unit steps. Depending on how critical viewers are to video quality, feelings vary as to what a good setting is. Most like it somewhere between 30 and 50. Joerod likes it at 120. smile.gif More and more manufacturers such as Oppo and Lumagen are licensing the process and including it in their units.
post #6101 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

you win a 5 year subscription to Joe's site. Be sure to declare the cash value on your income tax for your country. smile.gif Actually Joe wins, the more hits his site gets the higher the ad rate he can get.

Now because Joe tends to review the whole box of candy instead of the individual different pieces in the box, I am requesting that he focus on the pieces. Specifically on the Silicon Image VSR Clear Image Video Processor. For get about the disc drive and the audio decoder, the unit has two HDMI 1.4 ins. So you can take sources say 1080 p 24 or 30 in and process them to 4K by the Silicon Image Chip. That what I want t know, how does the chip perform as a deinterlacer/scaler compared to other 4K upscalers?

D.J. What are we suppose to tell from your screen shot? It looks awful in PQ and I know it isn't.

Damn that smoke my hope of a future as a photographer biggrin.gif - fortunately they do not really tell you anything (maybe it was an attempt to show how small details projector can show when it is fed with native UHD input - but it is clearly not succeed me, sorry redface.gif).

But once in a while, it is now quite entertaining to see some pictures in this thread and you should know, a picture says more than 1000 words! wink.gif

dj
post #6102 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post

Millerwill.... what is your opionion of the Darblet vs no darblet with the sony as the end source of projection? I really didn't know anything about the Darblet but since this is a hobby of mine, I'm always willing to play around if it improves the picture. Your thoughts???? Does it improve things, would you really notice if someone disconnected it? It is just hard to think such a cheap little item could improve upon the Sony image without causing more artifact harm then good. I look forward to yoru comments or from others using the darblet with the sony 1000. Thanks!

I think Mark H's comments are about where I am. My impression it that it increases the intra-image contrast. But frankly, it is not a night-and-day effect for me; i.e., I don't see the 'lifting of the veil' effect shown in their ads. I find that it has the most (positive) effect on the highest quality HD pics, and much less on lower quality input.
post #6103 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

when does one have to or can use the 2.35 memory on the vw1000? Isn t it best to always use this because then the complete panel is used?


No, because when it using the "odd" resolution 4096x2160 from say a 1920x1080 input the scaling gets harder ( meaning the Picture get a tinny Little softere, ) then when you use the "normal" mode, where the resolution fits perfect ( 4 times the 1080P input ) and it can make a "pixel to 4 pixel " much easyer ( meaning the sharpest posible Picture ).

Or in short:

use normal for the sharpest Picture

use 2.35 zoom mode for greastet light output or if you need the biggere Picture ( due to a, for example, for close projection distance to your screen ) , because you get the biggest Picture size with that mode ( and a Little overscan too tongue.gif )

dj
post #6104 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I think Mark H's comments are about where I am. My impression it that it increases the intra-image contrast. But frankly, it is not a night-and-day effect for me; i.e., I don't see the effect shown in their ads. I find that it has the most (positive) effect on the highest quality HD pics, and much less on lower quality input.

You'll see the 'lifting of the veil' in paused video. You can't miss it. Moving video is another story.
post #6105 of 9661
I do see a "lifting of veil" effect on my JVC RS55. However, I'm pretty conservative with the Darbee because it really does put it's own look on the image and I quickly notice an image has been "Darbeeized," so I keep it at a more subtle setting for movies. (E.g. between 20 and 30). I find the MPC processing of my JVC projector is the most natural clarity/depth/detail enhancer that I've seen.
post #6106 of 9661
Yeah around 30 or so was the consensus of a bunch of users on the max settings to go on the Darbee without inducing artifacts.
post #6107 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

You'll see the 'lifting of the veil' in paused video. You can't miss it. Moving video is another story.

Agree; it's more noticeable on a paused image.
post #6108 of 9661
I like 30 for Blu ray and 70 ish for NFL. eek.gif
post #6109 of 9661
Rats. I lost another bet. I was sure you would like it best set on 120. smile.gif


30 seems the consensus pick for Bluray. Mine is broken right now, no video out, but I set it at 35.
post #6110 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

No, because when it using the "odd" resolution 4096x2160 from say a 1920x1080 input the scaling gets harder ( meaning the Picture get a tinny Little softere, ) then when you use the "normal" mode, where the resolution fits perfect ( 4 times the 1080P input ) and it can make a "pixel to 4 pixel " much easyer ( meaning the sharpest posible Picture ).

Or in short:

use normal for the sharpest Picture

use 2.35 zoom mode for greastet light output or if you need the biggere Picture ( due to a, for example, for close projection distance to your screen ) , because you get the biggest Picture size with that mode ( and a Little overscan too tongue.gif )

dj
Ok, now it makes sense to me. So use NORMAL when you have enough light and your screen is not too big and use 2.35 ZOOM MODE when you a have pretty big screen and want/need more light
post #6111 of 9661
Its not so much a question of more or less light. Its a question of the width of the black bars for aspect ratios above the aspect ratio of the chip (1.89 rounded). It can't be boiled down to a right answer of what you should do. It depends on the source resolution and aspect, your screen size, and your priorities.
post #6112 of 9661
Can anyone provide or point me to measured lumens and/or contrast ratio for the vw1000es at different throws?
post #6113 of 9661
Last year, I decided to spend hours doing this. After calibrating for rec 709 and d 65, I measured lumens by starting at minimum throw and then I stepped the throw ratio by increments of .05. Of course I measured on off and ANSI at those throws. Then after every 200 hours of bulb use, I recalibrated and remeasured at each point. I entered everything into a program Coderguy sent me for determining the optimum placement for the projector. Unfortunately the program crashed and the data inputted could not be recovered. I went to get my notebook of measurement data to try again and much to my surprise and temporary anger, I discovered my dog had eaten it. I thought about getting a new bulb and starting over, but I said screw it because of all my precious work on this project took too much time away from me posting and my posting average was reaching playoff relief pitching era levels, so I decided to spend my time posting and getting my posting average and total count up. I hope you understand. smile.gif
Edited by mark haflich - 10/4/13 at 4:15pm
post #6114 of 9661
Off-topic, but does anyone happen to know what the current Darblet does if it receives a 4K signal?
post #6115 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by aligborat View Post

Off-topic, but does anyone happen to know what the current Darblet does if it receives a 4K signal?

It cannot accept one so you won't receive a picture to your projector if you send it one.
post #6116 of 9661
It won't pass anything higher than 1080p 60. And that's why when we have UHD and 4K source images we will need a 4K Darbee and as of now no one is going to make one.
Edited by mark haflich - 10/14/13 at 12:56pm
post #6117 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I totally get what both of you are saying. My best point is simple. The Darblet in the 103D is like a next gen model which works with much better results. It's like the original on steroids. And yes I have it here to compare.

"Next gen" as in 4k 60p HDMI 2.x? Or "next gen" like PS4 and XBone that is rushed to market without HDMI 2.x even though the spec is final before they come out, just because they decided they can't miss another Christmas season?

Sorry, couldn't resist. You guys may be on a different upgrade cycle than me, but I have no intention of investing any more money in 1080p Blu-Ray unless there is a huge reason to do so--and this isn't it.
post #6118 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Joe. The oppo actually uses a chain of three chips for its video processing. Deinterlacing and scaling to 1080p is done by a Marvel Tek chip. Then the Darbeevision process is applied through a chip storing the Darbeevision algs. Then the signal goes to a Silicon Optic chip that upscales for 1080p to 4K.

The Oppo can't output 4:2:0 in any mode.
post #6119 of 9661
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I totally get what both of you are saying. My best point is simple. The Darblet in the 103D is like a next gen model which works with much better results. It's like the original on steroids. And yes I have it here to compare.

Interesting considering that I talked to Darbee at the show and they said it is identical to the processing in the Darblet in everyway. You sure about that last sentence??
post #6120 of 9661
I thought I read it was the same Darbee processing and if you choose to enable the processing it's stuck at one setting which was the equivalent to the HD 40 (or maybe it was HD 30) setting on the standalone Darblet.
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