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Sony VPL-vw1000 - Page 232

post #6931 of 9691
PS4 - time to go see what the hype is all about

PS4.jpg
post #6932 of 9691
You're going to find your PC setup more enjoyable on those non exclusive PS4 titles.
post #6933 of 9691
The only appeal the consoles have for me is the beat-em-up games, Soul Caliber, Tekken, Virtual Fighter, etc. I know the 780 Ti will put a beating on this PS4 in the FPS genre. Plus I can only use mouse and keyboard from my Quake/Unreal tournament days.

I still have a Sega Saturn here for my other favorite console genre, the shoot 'em ups like Radiant Silvergun, fast and brainless game play. I should see how it looks hooked up the 1000.. smile.gif
post #6934 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I just read a good deep dive on the Oppo BDP-103D with tons of detail that I haven't seen in other reviews.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdfever.fr%2F2013%2F10%2F19%2Ftest-oppo-bdp-103d-darbee-edition-2%2F

It looks like they just came out with a firmware update to resolve an issue with the darbee processing:

Resolved a visible streaking issue observed on the BDP-103D player. Customers reported that after turning on the Darbee processing, they could see streaks or stripes in the background details, which became more obvious after increasing the Darbee level or switching to Full-Pop mode. This issue has been resolved in the beta release.

I'd be interested to check it out but not happy about 2 items from the report. Not passing HD audio via the HDMI in is a bit of a deal breaker. Also no 3D MVC MKV support which is kind of silly since it can play back regular 2D MKV files.

it's hard to get a read on the quality of the 4K scaling, it would be great if someone who had the lumagen and Oppo do a comparison.

I have a Lumagen available but no Oppo 103D. I won't be buying an Oppo 103D either, the Darbee should be placed at the source resolution and not after upscalling 1080p or whatever which is how it is in the Opo pathway way. Its OK for bluray but not placed correctly for 720p and 1080i sources. The 1080p to uhd upscaler in the Oppo is the Silicon Images one which is actually the Achor Bay chip. Silicon Images purchased Anchor Bay (DVDO). The scaler rings reportedly but not that badly.

Instead of a review let's just accept Joerod's assessment that the Lumagen suuucks and the Oppo is heads and shoulders way better than anything else out there for 4K scaling and that the Darbee Algs are pumped up on steroids in the Oppo. Well maybe he is wrong since the Darbee algs are identical and he was the one who thought Sony nailed 4K upscalling and RC processing when he evaluated his 1000ES and he doesn't have a Lumagen.
Edited by mark haflich - 11/24/13 at 4:09pm
post #6935 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I'd check out the AMD Radeon HD 7950. It's a great card. You can get one for $250:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161420

Well with the trouble that Sanderdvd was having, I was waiting to see the outcome before buying it. Now it's sold out at Newegg and Amazon. Your 690 and Mark's 780TI are more expensive than the $399 R9 290, so I opted to go with it. It's not breaking my bank and it's the new "best value" for now. It arrives tomorrow, so I'll put it in as is and get to check out some 4K @24p or UHD @30p over HDMI 1.4. I've got quite a few trailers and clips to at least see the higher rez on the Sony. I'm sure this card won't be pushed that hard for video, so not worried about the heat. Plus my case has plenty of run and cooling. I'll probably get a 4K game at some point to check out and if it gets too hot or needs to be cooled in order to get more FpS, I'll get an ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme III VGA Cooler and slap that on it.
post #6936 of 9691
I'll sell my 7950 for $215 + shipping.
post #6937 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

Well with the trouble that Sanderdvd was having, I was waiting to see the outcome before buying it. Now it's sold out at Newegg and Amazon. Your 690 and Mark's 780TI are more expensive than the $399 R9 290, so I opted to go with it. It's not breaking my bank and it's the new "best value" for now. It arrives tomorrow, so I'll put it in as is and get to check out some 4K @24p or UHD @30p over HDMI 1.4. I've got quite a few trailers and clips to at least see the higher rez on the Sony. I'm sure this card won't be pushed that hard for video, so not worried about the heat. Plus my case has plenty of run and cooling. I'll probably get a 4K game at some point to check out and if it gets too hot or needs to be cooled in order to get more FpS, I'll get an ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme III VGA Cooler and slap that on it.

I was originally going to get the R290, it's a great price for the performance. I've had these e-vga Nvidia's for 10 years and decided to continue the tradition.

Where are you finding the 4K clips besides youtube? A fellow member pointed me to these clips:

http://www.elementaltechnologies.com/resources/4k-test-sequences

these must be uncompressed given the huge size for such a small runtime.
post #6938 of 9691
What CPU are you using? You may need to use hardware acceleration for 4K material if your CPU isn't up to snuff.
post #6939 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I was originally going to get the R290, it's a great price for the performance. I've had these e-vga Nvidia's for 10 years and decided to continue the tradition.

Where are you finding the 4K clips besides youtube? A fellow member pointed me to these clips:

http://www.elementaltechnologies.com/resources/4k-test-sequences

these must be uncompressed given the huge size for such a small runtime.

LOL. I used the 4Kdownloader.exe that you pointed to and saved clips from youtube. Not sure if they're compressed MP4 or not.

Thanks for the new link. Looks like the ProRes are the 4K links. I'm downloading one of these .mov files now, but it's pathetically slow from this site.

I found this site, but it's also very slow and are .yuv files. Pretty sure Jriver doesn't support these and another player is needed to paly and/or convert. All of this is not really worth the trouble for a stupid clip of something that I watch once.

A lot of 4K stuff is shot on Red epic cameras. Unfortunately, a lot of true 4K samples out there aren't free, at least for now. frown.gif And I have no intentions of buying a Red Epic or Sony 4K camcorder. We're going to have to share links that we find and/or wait for the Sony 4K player (or play 4K games) to truly experience the full potential of the Sony 4K ES projectors. When that finally comes with the upgrade, I'm also going to be very selective in what I buy. It better look fantastic and be a clear improvement of BD and also something that I want to watch more than once (mainly SciFi), especially if Sony is going to charge a lot to own it digitally.
post #6940 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

What CPU are you using? You may need to use hardware acceleration for 4K material if your CPU isn't up to snuff.

I've got an i5-3570. I built my latest HTPC in Sept. 2012 using that CPU and the following. It was certainly good enough for 1080p. Hopefully, it will be good enough for some 4K with the R9 290.
GIGABYTE G1.Sniper M3 LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2133
OCZ Technology 128GB Vertex 4 Series SATA 6.0 GB SSD.

I'm prepared to build another next year and relegate this one to the family room when I end my DirecTV contract and rely only on HDHomeRunPrime/FIOX QAM and CouchPotato for TV needs.
post #6941 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Where are you finding the 4K clips besides youtube? A fellow member pointed me to these clips:

I assume you guys are already following this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1500134/anyone-know-where-to-find-4k-test-files-not-youtube
post #6942 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

I've got an i5-3570. I built my latest HTPC in Sept. 2012 using that CPU and the following. It was certainly good enough for 1080p. Hopefully, it will be good enough for some 4K with the R9 290.
GIGABYTE G1.Sniper M3 LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2133
OCZ Technology 128GB Vertex 4 Series SATA 6.0 GB SSD.

I'm prepared to build another next year and relegate this one to the family room when I end my DirecTV contract and rely only on HDHomeRunPrime/FIOX QAM and CouchPotato for TV needs.

The R290x should be more than enough for MadVR rendering and scaling, but you'll have to see if the CPU is powerful enough for decoding the video. This is where you may run into an issue with higher bitrate 4K material, though I can't say for sure as there really aren't a lot of people playing back 4K media on their PCs. I haven't really run into anyone suggesting which CPU is the cut off limit for typical 4K file playback. In this case, this is where an nVidia card would be better. Hardware acceleration for decoding is rather limited on AMD cards. It's DXVA decoding only officially supports h.264 at Level 4.1 and Level 5.1 type encoded material. Though others have had luck with media that isn't L4.1 or L5.1 but those files were only 1080p. I don't think the dedicated DXVA hardware on AMD cards is powerful enough for 4K media but you never know. Seeing how there isn't really an regulatory standards yet with 4K media and how it should be encoded, like how blu-ray has strict level 4.1 standards, results may be hit or miss depending on which encoding settings the encoder chose to use. nVidia has the distinct advantage here because when using something like LAV Video decoder you have the choice to use your nvidia card and decode the videos with it's CUDA cores instead of the dedicated DXVA hardware decoder on the card so there is basically no restriction on what it can decode like you'd get with an AMD card.

But then again, your CPU *should* be fine for decoding.
Edited by Seegs108 - 11/24/13 at 4:38pm
post #6943 of 9691
Sorry to stumble on this video card discussion like an uninformed drunk, but how are you handling audio out from the PC? I know there is no immediate need for bitstreaming, but since my processor does not pass 4k, I would need some type of split av output - 4k video to the projector, and preferably, HDMI audio out to my processor...what is recommended for dual hdmi out with split av for this scenario?
post #6944 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Sorry to stumble on this video card discussion like an uninformed drunk, but how are you handling audio out from the PC? I know there is no immediate need for bitstreaming, but since my processor does not pass 4k, I would need some type of split av output - 4k video to the projector, and preferably, HDMI audio out to my processor...what is recommended for dual hdmi out with split av for this scenario?

Most video cards these days have up to 4 digital outputs you can use. For instance, on my GTX 690, I have 3 dual link DVI ports and a mini-displayport at my disposal. For each output you can have it be it's own display or have them all output the same desktop image. Meaning, if I had 4 projectors or TVs I could simultaneously have 4 different videos playing at the same time with each display showing one of them or you set it up so all of them are sent the same signal, ie a single desktop image. Or you can mix it up. It doesn't have to be one of those two examples, but those are probably the most commonly used. This is an important feature to have for those who have a receiver with only HDMI 1.3 inputs. My Onkyo TX-SR805 is like this. So I use a simple DVI to HDMI cable to my projector and then use another DVI to HDMI cable to go to my receiver. So in this example I'm using two of the DVI ports simultaneously. This way you can bitstream audio to your receiver and still get a 3D or 4K image to your projector/display if your receiver doesn't support such features. To set up which device get's send the audio you can either go under your sound options in Windows or set that up inside your media player. It's pretty simple and I hope I didn't make it sound complicated.
post #6945 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Most video cards these days have up to 4 digital outputs you can use. For instance, on my GTX 690, I have 3 dual link DVI ports and a mini-displayport at my disposal. For each output you can have it be it's own display or have them all output the same desktop image. Meaning, if I had 4 projectors or TVs I could simultaneously have 4 different videos playing at the same time with each display showing one of them or you set it up so all of them are sent the same signal, ie a single desktop image. Or you can mix it up. It doesn't have to be one of those two examples, but those are probably the most commonly used. This is an important feature to have for those who have a receiver with only HDMI 1.3 inputs. My Onkyo TX-SR805 is like this. So I use a simple DVI to HDMI cable to my projector and then use another DVI to HDMI cable to go to my receiver. So in this example I'm using two of the DVI ports simultaneously. This way you can bitstream audio to your receiver and still get a 3D or 4K image to your projector/display if your receiver doesn't support such features. To set up which device get's send the audio you can either go under your sound options in Windows or set that up inside your media player. It's pretty simple and I hope I didn't make it sound complicated.

I thought DVI was video only...
post #6946 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

I thought DVI was video only...

That was when DVI was first created. A lot has changed since then. Single Link DVI and HDMI are the same. Both of them use the same 19 pin configuration. For a number of years both nvidia and AMD have their DVI ports set up so you can pass audio from them too. Like I said, all you need is an DVI to HDMI cable or a simple adapter to get audio to pass through. These are what I use and I've never had a single issue with HDCP, LPCM, or bitstreaming.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814999010&Tpk=ati%20dvi%20to%20hdmi%20adapter

I should mention that my GTX 690 is odd because almost every other card has an actual HDMI(s) port on it.
post #6947 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

That was when DVI was first created. A lot has changed since then. Single Link DVI and HDMI are the same. Both of them use the same 19 pin configuration. For a number of years both nvidia and AMD have their DVI ports set up so you can pass audio from them too. Like I said, all you need is an DVI to HDMI port or a simple adapter to get audio to pass through. These are what I use and I've never had a single issue with HDCP, LPCM, or bitstreaming.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814999010&Tpk=ati%20dvi%20to%20hdmi%20adapter

I should mention that my GTX 690 is odd because almost every other card has an actual HDMI(s) port on it.

Great thanks...
post #6948 of 9691
even my $70 Nvidia GT 430 I use for an MCE7 setup can stream HD audio via the DVI cable. I did this for a while before I had a 1.4 capable AVR.
post #6949 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I have a Lumagen available but no Oppo 103D. I won't be buying an Oppo 103D either, the Darbee should be placed at the source resolution and not after upscalling 1080p or whatever which is how it is in the Opo pathway way. Its OK for bluray but not placed correctly for 720p and 1080i sources. The 1080p to uhd upscaler in the Oppo is the Silicon Images one which is actually the Achor Bay chip. Silicon Images purchased Anchor Bay (DVDO). The scaler rings reportedly but not that badly.

Instead of a review let's just accept Joerod's assessment that the Lumagen suuucks and the Oppo is heads and shoulders way better than anything else out there for 4K scaling and that the Darbee Algs are pumped up on steroids in the Oppo. Well maybe he is wrong since the Darbee algs are identical and he was the one who thought Sony nailed 4K upscalling and RC processing when he evaluated his 1000ES and he doesn't have a Lumagen.

Hell even the Samsung 7500 and new Panny is better at 4K up scaling than the Lumagen. The Oppo is head and shoulders above all of them because of he Darbee implementation. Of course you won't ever know because you won't buy a 103D. And yes I had the Lumagen here. Soft in comparison. Of course if you don't A/B then I guess you are fine. I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take.... biggrin.gif
post #6950 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I just read a good deep dive on the Oppo BDP-103D with tons of detail that I haven't seen in other reviews.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdfever.fr%2F2013%2F10%2F19%2Ftest-oppo-bdp-103d-darbee-edition-2%2F

It looks like they just came out with a firmware update to resolve an issue with the darbee processing:

Resolved a visible streaking issue observed on the BDP-103D player. Customers reported that after turning on the Darbee processing, they could see streaks or stripes in the background details, which became more obvious after increasing the Darbee level or switching to Full-Pop mode. This issue has been resolved in the beta release.

I'd be interested to check it out but not happy about 2 items from the report. Not passing HD audio via the HDMI in is a bit of a deal breaker. Also no 3D MVC MKV support which is kind of silly since it can play back regular 2D MKV files.

it's hard to get a read on the quality of the 4K scaling, it would be great if someone who had the lumagen and Oppo do a comparison.



Thanks, Z10K for the info about the 103D, I think about to change my 93 to the 103D ( primary to get the Darbee thing ) smile.gif



dj
post #6951 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Hell even the Samsung 7500 and new Panny is better at 4K up scaling than the Lumagen. The Oppo is head and shoulders above all of them because of he Darbee implementation. Of course you won't ever know because you won't buy a 103D. And yes I had the Lumagen here. Soft in comparison. Of course if you don't A/B then I guess you are fine. I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take.... biggrin.gif


A typical illogical response, condeming a product that you have not seen based on its performance and championing another based on illogic. Great reporting. Do you think readers here are that stupid not to see what you are doing and how you are doing it even though you do not see it yourself? Unless you have seen a recent Lumagen after an alg was fixed, you have condemned the scaling in the Lumagen when you haven't seen the current scaling.

Unlike you, I said I have not seen the other unit (for me the Oppo 103D)(for you the current Lumagen 2041 or 2042). This is reporting by you at its worst. You are damaging a manufacturer without seeing what you are condemning (the latest scaling).

You say the Oppo 103D has 4K scaling heads and shoulders above all the rest because of its Darbee implementation. This is a reasons statement that makes no sense. The Darbee algs are not scaling algs, they do not increase resolution. The same algs etc are in both the Lumagens and the Oppo 103D. Exactly the same, confirmed, and the Oppo after drug testing was steroid free. You did say it used Darbee algs on steroids? smile.gif In the Oppo 103D the Darbee algs are applied at the user's option and degree after uscaling to 1080p as may be necessary for sources below 1080p in resolution and before further upscaling to UHD or 4K by the Silicon Images chip, which of course as you may not know is the old Anchor Bay chip. If the scaling is better in the Oppo 103D it would likely be due to the Silicon Images chip and would have absolutely nothing to do with the Darbee. In fact, and for reasons a non technical person would not understand, the Darbee algs after intensive testing by several users and at least one licensee, works best when applied at the source resolution level. For bluray sources the Lumagen and Oppo 103D apply them at that level. For lower resolutions the Lumagen apllies them at the source resolution, the Oppo 103D contrary to the ideal applies them after upscaling to 1080p. This is not in condemnation of the Oppo. I haven't seen it and I am sure it does a great job.

The Silicon images chip has been reported as having minor ringing. The Lumagen scaling is ring free. While almost all scalers ring to some degree and such ringing by definition of the term ringing masks or hide high frequency detail at contrast transitions, many non critical viewers would not notice. This is good for them and perhaps for you. Even I can live with losing high frequency detail at transitions and still enjoy the game but with my Lumagen, I have no ringing. Added by edit. By introducing some ringing, the image can indeed appear sharper because the transitions are more abrupt because its like a cliff with the halo markiing the edge and making it very obvious or sharp. The downside besides seeing the halo which is an artifact pure and simple.is that the high frequency detail is lost. So more sharp if you will but less detail

Tell you what. Later, I will be glad to fly into Chicago with of course the aid of a plane and I will bring my Lumagen. We can play all day comparing the end reslt scaling to UHD of both, take pictures, and both report on the results. We can even have a 3rd party referee to insure against bilateral hostilities. Of you could come to my house in MD. Bring your wife. I'll pick you up at the airport, BWI works best. You will have a great time, can stay for a few days, and we can do the comparison here.

Its a good thing we are friends or these posts could be uglier. smile.gif
Edited by mark haflich - 11/25/13 at 2:25pm
post #6952 of 9691
This official VW1000 topic is getting more and more overlap with this topic http://www.avsforum.com/t/1499082/vpl-vw1000es-and-htpc-at-4k-native-rez/0_100#post_23989597 so I ll post the same in both.

First of all about the glitches I had with the Club3D HD7950. I installed MSI Afterburner and crancked up the clocks and memory. This completely solved the glitches problem.

But the problem is that I cannot decide which config I like most.

Setup 1:
Play 1080p Blu-Ray => HTPC with MPC-HC send out 1080p to VW1000 => VW1000 Reality Creation @10 and FI set to LOW

Setup 2:
Play 1080p Blu-Ray => HTPC with MPC-HC => madVR that upscales 2K to 4K with JINC3+AR => send out native 4K to VW1000 => VW1000 Reality Creation OFF and FI OFF (because not available!)

For non-panning scenes setup 2 is the absolute winner. You can CLEARLY see the upscaling is top-notch!!!
For panning scenes setup 1 wins by far. The FI on the VW1000 works just flawless with only very occasionally some visible artifacts.

There is another scenario which I m going to test tonight but I have no idea if the GPU will handle it: use madVR's Smooth Motion. But madVR's Smooth Motion is a pretty heavy thing itself and my GPU is already having a hard time doing the 2K to 4K upscaling with the JINC3 algorithm.
post #6953 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Thanks, Z10K for the info about the 103D, I think about to change my 93 to the 103D ( primary to get the Darbee thing ) smile.gif

dj

That 103D review had a lot of good info. I'm going to hold off and watch the change logs to see if/when they correct 2 deal-breakers for me.

  • no HD audio via HDMI in
  • no 3D MVC MKV playback

I would think both issues can be resolved in a firmware update.
post #6954 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post


...Its a good thing we are friends or these posts could be uglier. smile.gif

Gee, I'd love to see your verbiage with an enemy!
post #6955 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

That 103D review had a lot of good info. I'm going to hold off and watch the change logs to see if/when they correct 2 deal-breakers for me.

  • no HD audio via HDMI in
  • no 3D MVC MKV playback

I would think both issues can be resolved in a firmware update.

The Hdmi audio is limited by the Mediatek chipset. Oppo can't include it because of this. Same for 103 & 105
post #6956 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

The Hdmi audio is limited by the Mediatek chipset. Oppo can't include it because of this. Same for 103 & 105

Thanks for the info, that's a bummer since I was mainly looking to use it as a pass-through for my network media player. Can't back go to using the shiny round disks except for the original rip. smile.gif
post #6957 of 9691
Mark I have had the Lumagen here of course things may have improved with a firmware update. That is very well possible. I would love it if we were able to hang out sometime. My Wife would be delighted too. Anyway, again these are just my opinions and I am in no way, shape or form claiming them to be gospel. Working out the logistics of my Upgrade Kit Review as I type this!

smile.gif
post #6958 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

A typical illogical response, condeming a product that you have not seen based on its performance and championing another based on illogic. Great reporting. Do you think readers here are that stupid not to see what you are doing and how you are doing it even though you do not see it yourself? Unless you have seen a recent Lumagen after an alg was fixed, you have condemned the scaling in the Lumagen when you haven't seen the current scaling.

Ulike you, I said I have not seen the other unit (for me the Oppo 103D)(for you the current Lumagen 2041 or 2042). This is reporting by you at its worst. You are damaging a manufacturer without seeing what you are condemning (the latest scaling).

You say the Oppo 103D has 4K scaling heads and shoulders above all the rest because of its Darbee implementation. This is a reasons statement that makes no sense. The Darbee algs are not scaling algs, they do not increase resolution. The same algs etc are in both the Lumagens and the Oppo 103D. Exactly the same, confirmed, and the Oppo after drug testing was steroid free. You did say it used Darbee algs on steroids? smile.gif In the Oppo 103D the Darbee algs are applied at the user's option and degree after uscaling to 1080p as may be necessary for sources below 1080p in resolution and before further upscaling to UHD or 4K by the Silicon Images chip, which of course as you may not know is the old Anchor Bay chip. If the scaling is better in the Oppo 103D it would likely be due to the Silicon Images chip and would have absolutely nothing to do with the Darbee. In fact, and for reasons a non tehnical person would not understand, the Darbee algs after intensive testing by several users and at least one licensee, work best when applied at the source resolution level. For bluray sources the Lumagen and Oppo 103D apply them at that levels. For lower resolutions the Lumagen apllies them at the source resolution, the Oppo 103D contrary to the ideal applies them after upscaling to 1080p. This is not in condemnation of the Oppo. I haven't seen it and I am sure it does a great job.

The Silicon images chip has been reported as having minor ringing. The Lumagen scaling is ring free. While almost all scalers ring to some degree and such riging by deinition of the term ringing masks or hide high frequency detail at contrast transitions, many non critical viewers would not notice. This is good for them and perhaps for you. Even I can live with losing high frequency detail at transitions and still enjoy the game but with my Lumagen, I have no ringing.

Tell you what. Later, I will be glad to fly into Chicago with of course the aid of a plane and I will bring my Lumagen. We can play all day comparing the end reslt scaling to UHD of both, take pictures, and both report on the results. We can even have a 3rd party referee to insure against bilateral hostilities. Of you could come to my house in MD. Bring your wife.I'll pick you up at the airport, BWI works best. You will have a great time, can stay for a few days, and we can do the comparison here.

Its a good thing we are friends or these posts could be uglier. smile.gif

If I placing odds on the outcome of the event, I would pick Lumagen as a 3:2 favorite to win.
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post #6959 of 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

If I placing odds on the outcome of the event, I would pick Lumagen as a 3:2 favorite to win.

Is that 3:2 pulldown?....
post #6960 of 9691
This is Jim from Lumagen. As the architect of the Lumagen Radiance NoRing(TM) scaling algorithm I would like to try to clarify some things about scaling technology.

First, the Radiance 2041 and 2042 scaling was not originally our NoRing scaling, but it is now. So any comparison should be done with the latest software release.

Next I would like to comment on the Darbee. We place the Darbee at the source resolution - where it should be. All our tests, and those of others we have talked to, shows that it is significantly better to have the Darbee at the source resolution. Darbee can enhance the perceived sharpness of an image when used in moderation. I find that a setting much above HD-mode 30 creates too many artifacts, but I like the effect Dabree has with a setting in the HD-25 to HD-30 range. My final comment on Darbee is I would like to point out that the Darbee has nothing to do with a discussion on scaling, but of course is a feature that is worth noting in a product.

Now on to scaling technology: The Radiance scaling does NOT try to artificially sharpen the image. The design goal was for very low pass-band-ripple and a flat frequency response that approaches the Niquist sampling frequency as close as is rational. All other scalers (that we know of) create "ringing" as they scale. The Radiance NoRing does not create ringing. Ringing is best seen as a "halo" around objects in real video (which I find objectionable) or it can be seen in test patterns as lines around large steps in the test pattern.

The problem is that ringing, while an error and an objectionable artifact (e.g. Halo effect), can make an image appear sharper. So in my opinion the key is to evaluate the overall image accuracy, and not just look at the artificial edges created by the ringing. We are not opposed to comparisons, and I believe, as has been the case the comparisons of the past few years, that when all aspects of image quality are weighed, that the elimination of the scaler ringing is a much better trade off for overall image quality than the artificial sharpening created by the ringing or peaking of the image in other scalers.

The Oppo uses the Ancor Bay (aka DVDO) scaler in the Silicon Image chip. Historically whenever groups have done an evaluation of the Ancor Bay scaling verses the Lumagen NoRing scaling, the Lumagen scaling has won as providing the best overall image quality. Note, I am not saying that other scalers are bad. I am saying that when all aspects of image quality are considered the Radiance scaling is judged superior.

If sharpness is what you crave, you can use the Radiance edge enhancement feature to sharpen the image. The edge enhancement when used in moderation can sharpen the image while not adding too much ringing. And of course in the Radiance 20XX series the Darbee is available and supports saved setting for each input, input resolution and each of four input memories, and will provide optimal results since it is placed at the source resolution portion of the pipeline.

Some people like Darbee at HD-80. I may not be able to convince those people that accuracy is the key to sclaing since they are ignoring all the artifacts created by Darbee with a setting of 80. If you like Darbee at 80, or the sharpness created by ringing in your scaler, I absolutely agree that everyone gets to choose what they like to watch. It's just that I don't like the artifacts created by these, and I believe most people would agree with me.

Finally, scaling is just one aspect of the Radiance. The Radiance allows a system to be correctly calibrated, and allows for many other custom setup adjustments - such as anamorphic screens (both 2D and 3D) without the use of an anamorphic lens, plus a host of other setup features.
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