Sony VPL-vw1000 - Page 4

I read a book on the O.J. Simpson trial several years ago by Vincent Bugliosi. His primary point, which I happen to agree with, is that the trial turned out the way it did because the prosecution was spectacularly inept. He made a broader point about how incompetence is pervasive throughout the society. How is it that Mitsubishi could release a $8000 SXRD projector with a CMS that simply doesn't work? Pioneer's famed Kuro plasmas also included a CMS that didn't work, ever. They made a business decision that implementing the features properly cost more than any potential return, but having the feature carried some marketing value.

It is usually about money, and my guess is that either the people doing the demo lacked the funds to set it up correctly or they lacked the expertise (which is also about money) to do it right. Or, maybe they were just inept. Many companies display their projectors at CEDIA without light control, which makes the demonstration pretty much pointless. Another problem is that the people who make the major decisions in these companies are finance and/or marketing people who have little understanding of or interest in the technical side of the products they sell.

Very true, IMO, and very scary! Caveat Emptor applies in pretty much every facet of life.

Just wondering, what would you use that feature for?

I have no doubt that any one of the passionate AVS forum member could have done a spectacular presentation of one of the projectors given a proper technical briefing in advance.

I found out on Friday from Sony that the MSRP on the VW1000ES will be under $25,000. TIP: if its on you must have list, watch out for a pre-order deal from the AV Science Store.

I haven't seen the demo yet (hope the line isn't too long tomorrow) and so this isn't a review of the images it puts out, but my opinion about how good the projector itself looks. I would give the Qualia projector about a 9.5 out of 10 for aesthetics and this one a 2 out of 10. I'm not sure if this has been posted, but as one person pointed out to me, most of the projector looks like truck bed liner, or something like that. I hope this isn't final and they change it.

Guys. Got in early tonight so time for a half hour of posting. I need 5 hours sleep to do the show tomorrow.

Sony's lead US trainer is a good friend of mine and we cross consult on a variety of projector related items. He has been to my house a few times. I will get home late Saturday night and then I will post in earnest on Sunday.

I spent several hours in projector class on this and the 30ES and 95ES.

The projector we saw was a proto and does not truly represent the final version. Most of the statements made in this post are accurate re specs. I really didn't focus on the cosmetics of the machine and I will take another look tomorrow. But frankly I don't really care how the machine looks. It is big and I doubt the standard Chief RPA type mount will hold it, not a weight issue, but a size issue. It is big and the lens, man does it look big and expensive.

The demo left a lot to be disired. There was no opportunity to stand close to the machine and compare lets call it 2K to 4K. One couldn't see from most viewing locations in the room (we were all in chairs) the improvements going from 2K to 4K caused. But I know they were there having been able to stand very close to JVC RS65 as it was switched from 2K to e-shifted 4K. And the picture quality in 4K was very good. We watched everything in 4K except for some switched stills so the people filing reviews really didn't have a comparative basis to view how the machine improved active video and films by scaling to 4K and the flashing it as one 4K flash. Obviously unscaled 4K will look better than 2K scaled. Nothing can beat increasing input resolution no matter how good the scaler. The source call it 2K file used was not of high quality.

Sony announced the MSRP will be less than $25K, and based on prior history I expect that statement means the MSRP will be $24,995. I saw no evidence of any 4K native panel machines coming to market at anywhere near this price point. Of course, if you have hundreds of Ks to spend, you can buy a pro cinema 4K machine.

Now Alan and I are working to preorder many of these machines because I expect many forum members will want one and the more we order from the get go the better for us and for you.

This item won't appear on the store at other than MSRP. Just like all our posted store ad prices, we follow whatever MAP our manufacturers require.

We are starting a genuine pre interest and pre order list now. Please send me your relevent information by PM and I will call all to give you all the details that are important to you and needed for your decision. Please to not snooze on this one, we must act very quickly and if you snooze you will lose. I already have had members approach me at the show with pre interest orders. I really can't say anymore. PM me and I will fill you in and put big happy smiles on your faces.

Actully it was because if the scaling wasnt superb from 2K to 4K ( what I do think it must be or Sony really have made a mistake with its 25 K dollars project/projector ). I would just overrule the scaler inside the projector and either have a extern scaler do the job or zoom the image out to fit the screen ( it has memory settings ).

What Chuck correct says, is that it would take around 75 % light and only a 1/4 off the SXRD panel used - so again a probely better way to ( like Chuck suggested ) it would be: " to choose a nearest-neighbor scaling algorithm so that all 4 sub-pixels are set to the same value to simulate 1920x1080 exactly " .
That way it would use the full light output and the full panel without the need to zoom.

dj

Different taste here I really like the look of this projector ( no nonsens look ) , but in the end, I dont care about the look, so long it deliever the quality, we all hope for

dj

Tom and rraman,
I will criticize Sony when it is warranted, but I cut them some slack on this one. I believe it was mentioned that they got the demo material in the day before. Yes, you could say it is no excuse, but would you lay into Epson also for having troubles Thursday morning with their demo? There are plenty of demos that have problems. Next year when they will probably have a better handle on 4k material and hopefully there is more available, then they will have a better demo.

This probably won't be a repeat of the Qualia to Ruby. JVC is doing their e-shift to get to 4k this year and it is still $8k. That pj might make it to a lower price point next year, but I doubt true 4k will be under $10k for two years. I see this Sony as nice competitor to the Sims and other $15k to $30k pjs out there.

If I were considering this machine (way outside my price range) there is one feature I consider more important than any other and it hasn't even been mentioned.

Does this projector have replaceable input boards so that in 5 years when the Blu-ray spec is updated for 1080p@48 and 60Hz to show the latest and greatest Peter Jackson and James Cameron features at home, you can buy a $1K input board that supports it (ala Moome cards for Sony's CRT line) rather than having to buy a new $20K projector?

There just doesn't seem to be any effort to make a digital display not disposable as soon as there is a change in specs rather than constantly upgradeable until the panels themselves are totally obsolete. 12+ year old top-end CRTs are still compatible with all the latest specs including 3D even if they aren't quite as bright as desired or resolve as completely as a digital panel but at least the owners didn't have a useless paper weight the moment HDMI was created even though that specification did not exist when the CRTs where made.

One has to keep in mind the downward price trend though. 5 years ago I bought my Pio 50" plasma for $3,500. Today one can buy a 50" plasma for under $600- 17% of the cost 5 years ago. If this new Sony streets for maybe $23K, 17% five years from now is under $4k. Few will desire to upgrade for $1,000 then. I could imagine the entry level JVC in 5 years having the performance of today's Sony.

It also seems to me this Sony brings a lot to the table besides 4K. It's gonna be years before 4K content is widely available and affordable.

It will be years for the majority, but if one has money to send on this new Sony, I'm sure they can build a powerful HTPC to go along with it. I can only image pc games on this thing with a gamers pc. That would be nice!!!!

It has been said from Sony this projector is the last one in this series.Maybe the next series will be with the "laser-modul"

Has the full spec sheet been released for this model? Love to see it if anyone runs across it!

Particularly interested in the noise level. Any thoughts on this from those who have seen the demo? CEDIA may not be the best place to make a judgment.

I haven't seen the specs yet, but one of the Sony folks at the booth said he believed it was ~22dB, which would be pretty spectacular in a 2000 lumen machine.

Yes it would! A noise level like this would be great in a 2,000 lumen projector.

This just reinforces my belief that this projector has a lot offer- ignoring the 4K feature! Low noise, combined with nice brightness. Good optics, good motion handling. Great black levels and contrast. No possibility of RBE. A-lens free projection of 2.35 content.

To be fair, we'll need to see the final specs and some in-depth reviews to know for sure, but this looks like a nice combination of features. Add 4K, and you've got some real competition for the big boys like Sim2, Runco, etc... Sim2's Lumis 3D platform starts at $38,000. I'm thinking this Sony might street for $15K less, and in some respects looks to be a better machine!

Mike- I checked out your build thread. WOW!

Darin, I absolutely agree with you about the look of the Sony 1000: looks like sprayed on Styrofoam, with glitter thrown in—awfully cheesy! I beat up on several Sony guys in their demo area, expressing a great desire that this be changed in the final product (they thanked me and assured me that this was a prototype). I hope that you and others gave them a hard time about this. What I would most prefer is the finish on the 95, dull black (don’t really care for the piano black of other Sony’s or the JVCs, but it’s not a big deal). I don’t even like the glitzy decoration around the lens; again, looks cheap, whereas this is supposed to be the class of the field. Mark H, can you ‘officially’ tell them that AVS wants the cabinet material changed!?

But apart from that, I am intrigued by the possibility of the 1000 (provided Mark H and AVS can come up with an attractive deal). Here below I list what I think are the advantages of the Sony 1000 over the JVC RS55 (some of which are specific to me, but most more general). I list these so that you—and anybody—can poke holes in my reasoning and talk me out of this madness!

Advantages of the Sony 1000 vs the JVC RS55:

1. Much brighter (~ 2x), and as we all know, ‘brightness is a seducer’!
2. Native CR is likely as great or greater, plus has an excellent DI to amplify it
3. Shorter min throw ratio (1.27 vs 1.38) [Darin, didn’t you post some while ago, re the JVC, that min throw gave the sharpest pic?]
4. Quieter (probably by at least ~ 6 dB)
5. Probably better fast motion handling (at least this has been true so far for SXRD vs DILA)
6. A true 4K pj, can take 4K input (and Lumagen seems to be planning on a next generation Radiance that can output 4K from 1080i/p, etc., sources)

Both have lens memory and regional pixel adjust, so that’s a draw.

So the Sony 1000 seems to best the RS55 in all important parameters—brightness, CR, resolution, quietness, throw ratio, etc.—not the usual ‘pluses and minuses’ that we always discuss when comparing projectors, e.g., dlp to lcos, etc. Furthermore, since the Sony is not scheduled to deliver the 1000 until Jan, it should be their flagship consumer pj for at least several years, during which time they will presumably be highly motivated to make sure it performs up to its potential. The only advantage I see for the RS55 over the 1000 is price, but this of course may trump everything else, depending on the person and how good a deal AVS can come up with.

PS Great talking with you and the other guys last night--but it's good to be back home!

PS It's probably not 'fair' to compare two pj's so different in MSRP (though maybe less in reality?), but I only do it because these are the two that are under my consideration. As is clear, I think the Sony 1000 will be better in most ways, but if i decide not to go for it then the RS55 would be what i upgrade to this year.

Not much we don't know, but this is from Sony:

VPL-VW1000ES

Brightness of 2,000 ANSI lumenstwice as bright as VPL-VW95ES
1,000,000:1 dynamic contrast
4K resolution, 4096x2160 resolutiongreater than 4 times 1080p
8.8-million pixels for larger viewing areas
1080p to 4K upconversion delivers a 4K experience for HD content and Blu-ray
Flexible installation
Bi-directional control over RS232 and IP
2.1 motorized zoom
80 (v)/30 (h) shift
1.27-2.73 "throw" distance
Simple integration-includes AMX® Device Discovery Beacon, Control4® Certified and Simple Device Discovery
3D anamorphic capability
Sony 4K SXRD technology with new-generation 4K projection chips
3-year limited warranty
Ultra-quiet operation

Because this is a native 4K machine, a 1080p vs 4K A vs B can not be done on this machine. JVC becuse it is a native 1080p machine, can easily show how jaggies and picture structure disappear by upscaling and e shifting to 4K.

1080p can not be displayed native on the Sony. Only 4K. So to demonstrate the benifits of 4K, Sony had to display in 4K, a 2K picture source vs a 4K picture source. The A vs B was done by showing a couple of 2K stills and the same picture taken with a 4 K camera. Obviously displaying a 1080p movie on the JVCs vs the same upscaled and e shifting to 4K, easily showed most of the benifits of displaying 1080p on a native 4K display.

People in the Sony display just saw a 4k native, no way to say wow, so much better. What they could be shown was the difference on a 1080p souce upscaled to 4K and displayed on a native 4K panels,vs a 4K source and displaying it native with no upscaling. Duh. Sort of like the difference in scaling 480i to 1080p and starting with a native 1080p. Now garbage in, garbage out, and the 1080p source material Sony showed was a rather poor quality source.

Now about future year prices, a 4K panel is much bigger than a 1080p panel, and the lens required for quality displaying of the material on the 4K panels is a big expensive mother. And a lens of this quality will keep thje price of true 4K way above $4000 no matter what. Hell if the machine didn't come with the lens, I would guess the machine might cost $19K and the lens $6K. Something like that.

And no, I am not going to bitch about the finish. I looked at it and felt it, it is a dull grainy black and I think was chosen to avoid reflections that would occur with a shiny black surface. Plus I suspect itwould also dampen any resonances on the case. A quieter machines because of the finish. It doesn't have nice Ferrari type curves going from the front to the the top curved cover. And yes I didn't care for the gold bevel from which the lens extruded. But so what? Hangiong from your ceiling, you will soon be unware of the ring or bevel. If you look at it while projecting an image, you will likely temporarily blind yourself. And as for providing more curves ala Qualia 004, this could only raise the costs. Hanging from your ceiling it will look just fine. The dull black case with just make it disappear.

Now our initial buy will be small because Sony is imposing a quantity limit and I suspect only a very few here will be able to get that big grin smart buyer smile. I will prioritize by the order of PMS and emails received. Professor Miller is first and number two will be our demo. Just a few more after that, the exact number is unknown, but something like one to three more. So I will examine my PMs and emails to establish the list. If you want the giant grin over the big but not so big grin of later buyers, you have little if any time to act. I already may have received more than enough preorders to fill whatever we can get. Its close now, that's for sure.

I could not get in to see the demo again today. The line was really really long and for the afternoon showings Sony was trying to get a few more people in then they had theater seats. These people were out of the have gain viewing cone and I cautioned my Sony friend to tell them that they would not see the brightness the maschine was projecting on the screen because of this. There just wasn't enough time left in the show to show it to all who wanted to see it. And many people just couldn't take time away to stand in line for an hour or more. Most of the Sony people hadn't seen the machine by show close time and Sony had to schedule a showing afer close just to enable their crew to see it. Its 2AM and I am too tired to go on. I wish I could afford this thing right now.

unfortunately, this monster is totally out of my league, even at a 50% discount
However, I am grateful to see the progressing being made this year. Last year is not that exciting (3D is expected..) This year, we have seen 4K (native and upscale), major increase in brightness, color/grayscale close to D65, much better CFI...
I have high hopes that this will proliferate to lower end model, and we all know if SONY do it, others will follow and so by 3-4 years down, I might see a $5K 1000 lumens @D65, native 4K machine (and probably passive 3D glasses as well)! I need a time machine :P

[quote=Chuck Anstey;20930708]Does this projector have replaceable input boards so that in 5 years when the Blu-ray spec is updated for 1080p@48 and 60Hz to show the latest and greatest Peter Jackson and James Cameron features at home, you can buy a $1K input board that supports it (ala Moome cards for Sony's CRT line) rather than having to buy a new $20K projector?
QUOTE]

thats a good point!

as sony have a prof. version of the 4k pr. that can do 60p at native 4k
input there was a possibility that this pr. will have this function from the
beginning on.
but this prof. version costs at least 10 times the price this 4k home cinema pr. will be and it have 4 inputs that deal with 4k at 60p!

the problem will be as hdmi 1.4 can do 4k at max. 24 or 30p how a
4k 48p or 60p source can be feed?

if this pr. not offers a display port or a other more advanced input it will do max.4k at 24 or 30p but not 48 and 60p and as i doubt that
sony will use beside the hdmi 1.4 a other input i think the pr. will not have a input to do 4k at 48 or 60p.

but anyway if this pr. offers the 2000 lumen and a good picture quality
it was again a milestone same when sony comes with the qualia 004 pr. some years ago.

as many people talking about native 4k material (that we not have today)not forgeth that most of us have at least some stills in 4k resolution.

as i have a 4k dlp for some time i can tell you
that you will like it to make a slide show in 4k as it can show a quality
if you sit close enough to the picture that is far better than a full hd picture
if you have a good camera.
a good 4k display will show you if your camera is good or not as
with a 2k pr. always the pr. is the bottleneck in the system now with a
good 4k pr. that is not anymore the case

[quote=W.Mayer;20933391]

Mayer

How big a difference do the upscaled 4K picture do in contra the native 2K when you play a BR ?

( wie gross ist der untershied mit der upscalet 4K im gegenteil zum der native 2K mit ein blu ray - sorry, had to test my school deutsch )

Vielen dank

dj

no your german is good.

about to answer your question you can read this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1346057

in my post number 1 i describe it but to make it short
"not a big difference".
most is pure marketing.
you need good source material to get a big
improvment when go from 2k to 4k.

as most 35mm films are shot with 400asa film that contains not much more than
2k in the best case even a good 4k scann from 35mm films not show a big improvment.

good that many new movies are record with a true 4k digital camera the red epic.
with this source material its easy to see the difference between nativ 2k and nativ 4k
"IF" you sit not to far away to the picture.
same for some good still picture cameras.
for sample with my 4k dlp i can see first time a differnce between
RAW still data and JPG data.

W.Mayer

Thanks for the link to your thread ( ein sehr wunderbar und fantasiche " haus-kino" ) and for the input on 2K upscaled to 4K.

I will follow your comparing off the "little" () VW1000ES against your impressive "monster"( 2x ) Barco DP4K-B32.

I do have a small setup ( 100" 4/3 and a 109" 2.40:1 ), but I sit relative close to the screens ( 2,7 m ) and I like it to be very "gut", so I have to find out, if the 1000ES is worth the extra cash over the 95ES - I know, that I/we pay a lot of cash for the last 5-10% quality - but somehow, it is allmost allways the last step, who gives the best satisfasion and that stupid smile on our face

Grüsse

dj

I really enjoyed your analysis of the 1000, but now you've piqued my interest. Why the RS55 rather than the 95ES? For the 4K-lite? Does that outweigh the 3D and motion handling characteristics that sound as if they may be better on the Sony?

Let me just say that I really like the ring around the 1000's lens. It is apparently the air intake, which makes it even neater. :-) e shape doesn't bother me. If they can refine the matte finish a bit, well, that'd be fine.

Very perceptive, Mike; I totally missed that about the air intake (I had wondered where it was, though, since it was noted that the rear vents were the exhaust).

Also, re Mark H's comments about what I called a styrofoam-like material on the body of the pj: it may very well be helpful in damping out the sound. It is truly amazing that a 2000 lumen pj could be as quiet as 22 dB. I hope it really does live up to all these specs that have bee advertised, and with the pic that goes along with it.

Well, very good question. I agree that the motion handling of the 95ES will likely be better than that of the RS55, though I think it has been getting better with the RS's since my RS20. Yes, I suppose that the 4K-lite of the JVC would make me choose it, since I do sit very close to a large screen, ~ 1.0 SW away, so am thinking that I will benefit somewhat from some form of 4K, either JVC's e-shifted trick or the Sony 1000's scaling of 1080p to 4K (which my guess should be better, but who knows at this stage?).

It's a bit of a gamble to make a decision without seeing a final product for any of these pj's, but the best deals are obtained this way. I was lucky in buying an RS1 and an RS20 from AVS this way, though several people were unsatisfied with the JVC's they bought last yr on the pre-order basis. I'm thinking that I will go for the Sony1000, but admit that it is based on the expectation that Sony will deliver what they have described.

I have always liked Sony projectors, but the JVC RS-65 looks like a good deal at 1/3 the price (12K) for a stop-gap projector until the street price of the VW1000 comes down, and more 4k content/hardware comes on line in a year or two.
Has anyone seen the RS65? Would guess that it looks really good with 1080p content and 1/16 pixel convergence. Must look very sharp.
Might be a bit better looking than the VW95.
Still run the VW200, very happy with it, but would like to upgrade to the latest technology.
JVC is coming out with 4 models, low to high end. Too bad that Sony didn't come out with a mid level 4K projector like a VW500 for the masses that don't have or can't justify a $25K projector, but could go for a 12 to 15k$ unit.
Oh well, will just keep enjoying my VW200 for now. Don't really need 3D. Like in the 50's, 3D was just a fad, think that it is still be a fad unless or until one can watch 3D without glasses.
Hopefully, the production version of the VW1000 will will have a nicer looking case like the beautiful looking VW200. To me, the vw1000 prototype case is sure "Butt Ugly". Don't flame me on that comment please, just my opinion. I know that some people would like that look, but it just looks to bulky. Perhaps the internal optics dictate the need to be that fat.
Guess when it hangs from the overhead it doesn't mater though...