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Dual ULS-15's, my room, and Audyssey MultEQ...

post #1 of 58
9/8/11 at 6:15am
Thread Starter 
So I picked up two used Hsu ULS-15's this past weekend to replace my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus. Super exciting! I got them home, hooked them up, and ran some REW sweeps on them. Uh oh. One of them was making some bad noises on the low low end. Almost like it was bottoming out... I put in Tron: Legacy and it made the same noise at the point where Sam enters The Grid. Crap.

I gain matched them per Hsu's instructions, even swapped the amps, but now BOTH were making bad noises. Double crap! I did some Googling and found that Audyssey MultEQ will look at the frequency response all the way down to 10Hz and below to make its corrections! I re-ran Audyssey, hooked up REW, and did some sweeps. Sure enough, way down in the single digits there was a boost being applied. The graph was still climbing as it went down past 7Hz! God knows what it was doing below that... I didn't run the sweep that low. I guess the ULS-15's had enough output and my room had enough gain that Audyssey figured it could get a flat response way down into the single digits, so it boosted the hell out of those frequencies. I turned off Audyssey and the problem immediately went away.

This sucks, because I liked the Audyssey EQ setting on the Marantz SR5003 in general. I copied the settings from the Audyssey EQ to the "user preset" EQ on the receiver, but I'm sure the resolution of the user preset is far lower than the automatic Audyssey EQ. Of course the sub response is also lumpier without the EQ than with... I do still have output to 10Hz, though. God bless room gain and sub coupling!

I guess one solution would be to get something with a subsonic filter like the Elemental Designs EQ.2 where I could use Audyssey EQ but tell it to cut stuff. That looks like the cheapest and easiest solution... I did try using the ULS-15's "ULF Trim" knob but it didn't make a difference. I guess the Audyssey boost was too much.

Anyway, thought I'd share this to save someone else my frustrations, haha.
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post #2 of 58
9/8/11 at 7:09am
You are on the right path with a subsonic filter. I had a similar experience and in the interim until I got it fixed %100 I ran a subsonic filter at 12Hz. I have XT32 and like you, it was causing an issue with my sub with the really low stuff. I am using a sms-1 to help me tame the bass issues that were still around even after I ran XT32.
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post #3 of 58
9/8/11 at 7:13am
Quote:
I guess one solution would be to get something with a subsonic filter like the Elemental Designs EQ.2
Do they even sell them any more?? If that isnt avaiable then maybe the MiniDSP (balanced version) is the next cheapest choice.

btw, very interesting to read what Audyssey is doing to the lowest octaves and that is a big drag, I didn't know Audyssey MultEQ had that many filters below 80Hz?? Have you contacted HSU to ask them for a solution?? Maybe some temporary HPF so that you can run audyssey get it setup so it does not boost the low end?
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post #4 of 58
9/8/11 at 7:28am
The ULS-15 has ULF Trim on the amp.

"This compensates for room gain at very low frequencies.
Smaller rooms have more boost in the low bass.
Setting this control to 16 Hz gives flat response to 16 Hz
outdoors. Adjust to suit your room."

How do you have the other settings on the amp configured?

Are you using the wireless?
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post #5 of 58
9/8/11 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaball77 View Post
So I picked up two used Hsu ULS-15's this past weekend to replace my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus. Super exciting! I got them home, hooked them up, and ran some REW sweeps on them. Uh oh. One of them was making some bad noises on the low low end. Almost like it was bottoming out... I put in Tron: Legacy and it made the same noise at the point where Sam enters The Grid. Crap.

I gain matched them per Hsu's instructions, even swapped the amps, but now BOTH were making bad noises. Double crap! I did some Googling and found that Audyssey MultEQ will look at the frequency response all the way down to 10Hz and below to make its corrections! I re-ran Audyssey, hooked up REW, and did some sweeps. Sure enough, way down in the single digits there was a boost being applied. The graph was still climbing as it went down past 7Hz! God knows what it was doing below that... I didn't run the sweep that low. I guess the ULS-15's had enough output and my room had enough gain that Audyssey figured it could get a flat response way down into the single digits, so it boosted the hell out of those frequencies. I turned off Audyssey and the problem immediately went away.

This sucks, because I liked the Audyssey EQ setting on the Marantz SR5003 in general. I copied the settings from the Audyssey EQ to the "user preset" EQ on the receiver, but I'm sure the resolution of the user preset is far lower than the automatic Audyssey EQ. Of course the sub response is also lumpier without the EQ than with... I do still have output to 10Hz, though. God bless room gain and sub coupling!

I guess one solution would be to get something with a subsonic filter like the Elemental Designs EQ.2 where I could use Audyssey EQ but tell it to cut stuff. That looks like the cheapest and easiest solution... I did try using the ULS-15's "ULF Trim" knob but it didn't make a difference. I guess the Audyssey boost was too much.

Anyway, thought I'd share this to save someone else my frustrations, haha.
Did you measure the sub out to verify what audyssey is doing? Also, what mic are you using to measure?

I would guess audyssey isn't applying specific boosts that low, but it is a result of the leveling process. If I understand correctly, audyssey first sets the sub trim for reference level, than applies its filters and lastly determines if the filters would cause the overall sub level to be lower than where it started. For example, say you had a large peak at 50hz. When the sub level is set, that peak is taken into account. Now when Audyssey applies its filters, it is going to try and cut that 50hz peak to be flat. If the peak is large enough, the overall sub level is now going to be lower, so Audyssey applies a boost to the entire signal so it matches the original SPL level.

I've asked the following a couple times and have not received an answer yet. Is the audyssey process any different than if you were using a manual PEQ? If you set the sub level using a SPL meter and the AVR tones prior to EQ, had to apply a large cut, wouldn't you have to raise the sub trim or gain on the sub to match the original SPL? Isn't that essentially boosting all frequencies being sent to the sub?

Other options for a subsonic filter would be the reckhorn b2. or SMS-1. It would be nice if receivers started including an adjustable HPF for the sub out.

-Mike
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post #6 of 58
9/8/11 at 8:04am
Hello jaball77 and welcome to the club.

What I found works in most situations when Audyssey messes around with the boost in the low end is to change the ULF TRIM to the 50HZ setting on the ULS-15s...then re-run Audyssey with that setting. Once it has finished recalibrating your system you can change the ULF setting back to the 16Hz setting. This should keep Audyssey from boosting the low end in most cases. Could you try that and report back?
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post #7 of 58
9/8/11 at 8:07am
I have an unused Berhinger BFD that you can have for Shipping plus the cost of Captain Morgan private stock I will have to confirm it works.
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post #8 of 58
9/8/11 at 8:09am
Check out post 100 in the following link. It explains pretty well what was going on in my room and what we did to fix the issue. I think Mike pretty well hit it on the head but here is what we did.
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...0876&trail=100
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post #9 of 58
9/8/11 at 8:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post
Do they even sell them any more?? If that isnt avaiable then maybe the MiniDSP (balanced version) is the next cheapest choice.

btw, very interesting to read what Audyssey is doing to the lowest octaves and that is a big drag, I didn't know Audyssey MultEQ had that many filters below 80Hz?? Have you contacted HSU to ask them for a solution?? Maybe some temporary HPF so that you can run audyssey get it setup so it does not boost the low end?
The eQ.2 is still listed on their website for $100.

I emailed Hsu my discovery but I haven't heard back yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post
The ULS-15 has ULF Trim on the amp.

How do you have the other settings on the amp configured?

Are you using the wireless?
I tried using the Audyssey EQ and turned up the ULF trim knob to about 10 o'clock and it didn't do all that much.

The subs are wired using a splitter, crossover set to "out", gain set at about 9 o'clock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post
Did you measure the sub out to verify what audyssey is doing? Also, what mic are you using to measure?
I'm using a radio shack meter with REW and the appropriate correction files. I ran REW sweeps from 7-200Hz with and without Audyssey EQ turned on. WITHOUT the EQ, there's a hump at 10Hz, then it rolls off pretty quickly after that. WITH the EQ, the graph just keeps going on up and to the left, down to 7Hz which is low as I measured. At 7Hz the EQ'ed signal is at least 6dB higher than the un-EQ'ed one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post
Hello jaball77 and welcome to the club.

What I found works in most situations when Audyssey messes around with the boost in the low end is to change the ULF TRIM to the 50HZ setting on the ULS-15s...then re-run Audyssey with that setting. Once it has finished recalibrating your system you can change the ULF setting back to the 16Hz setting. This should keep Audyssey from boosting the low end in most cases. Could you try that and report back?
Huh, interesting. I'll try that when I get home tonight. I'll post some graphs with and without the current Audyssey EQ turned on as well... run at low enough volume so as not to make any nasty noises, heh.

*edit* Maybe I'll make some graphs of what the ULF Trim knob does, too... If I have time before the fiancee gets home.
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post #10 of 58
9/8/11 at 8:36am
I have come across a couple of Marantz and a couple of Denons that do not play nice with the ULS-15s When the low end is not calibrated properly by Audyssey, and yet the ULS-15s still try to produce the signal that is sent to them, the amp on the ULS-15 starts to clip and it makes the driver do some weird stuff. I hope my suggestion works for you.
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post #11 of 58
9/8/11 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post
Hello jaball77 and welcome to the club.

What I found works in most situations when Audyssey messes around with the boost in the low end is to change the ULF TRIM to the 50HZ setting on the ULS-15s...then re-run Audyssey with that setting. Once it has finished recalibrating your system you can change the ULF setting back to the 16Hz setting. This should keep Audyssey from boosting the low end in most cases. Could you try that and report back?
This was my experience as well.
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post #12 of 58
9/8/11 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post
This was my experience as well.
Then Whsky,

Why did you hold back that trick from your last post? I got to do all the work around here?
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post #13 of 58
9/8/11 at 9:05am
What's your AVR setting? Any hance your clipping the ore-out? Maybe try turning gain up on subs an down on receiver. Graphs would be very helpful to better understand your sub integration.

Btw Tron is a demanding movie for any sub.
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post #14 of 58
9/8/11 at 9:11am
I'd bet that Audessey applying that kind of boost is clipping the pre-out rather than actually bottoming the sub. The two sound very similar depending on how hard it's being clipped.
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post #15 of 58
9/8/11 at 9:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

What's your AVR setting? Any hance your clipping the ore-out? Maybe try turning gain up on subs an down on receiver. Graphs would be very helpful to better understand your sub integration.

Btw Tron is a demanding movie for any sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Schempp View Post

I'd bet that Audessey applying that kind of boost is clipping the pre-out rather than actually bottoming the sub. The two sound very similar depending on how hard it's being clipped.

Now that's an interesting notion...

With the initial setup, the gain was set at about halfway (12 o'clock) on the subs, and the level in the receiver was set at about -9 if I remember correctly...

When I first contacted Hsu about the problem they suggested I turn the gain DOWN, so that's what I did... Now the gain is at about 9 o'clock and the sub level in the receiver is at -2 or -3.

The problem with experimenting and figuring this out is that the noise sounds really bad, and I really don't want to damage my subs! If it IS bottoming out the driver or the amp is clipping I don't want to keep experimenting and fry something very expensive.
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post #16 of 58
9/8/11 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaball77 View Post

Now that's an interesting notion...

With the initial setup, the gain was set at about halfway (12 o'clock) on the subs, and the level in the receiver was set at about -9 if I remember correctly...

When I first contacted Hsu about the problem they suggested I turn the gain DOWN, so that's what I did... Now the gain is at about 9 o'clock and the sub level in the receiver is at -2 or -3.

The problem with experimenting and figuring this out is that the noise sounds really bad, and I really don't want to damage my subs! If it IS bottoming out the driver or the amp is clipping I don't want to keep experimenting and fry something very expensive.

That is close to an optimal setting. You could go even lower on the sub amp...say 8:30 so the sub trim level, in the AVR, hits 0dB. You will not damage the sub because it is not bottoming out even though that is what it sounds like. Try my suggestion this evening and let's see what happens.
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post #17 of 58
9/8/11 at 9:48am
I would try measuring the sub pre-out with and without audyssey with dynEQ disabled. That will show what Audyssey is actually doing with the signal and may help finding a solution.

You could also run sine waves through REW at different frequencies and slowly increase the level to see if you can find the limits of the subs and which frequencies are causing the problem. Just make sure to start at a low level and don't run sine waves continuously for very long.

-Mike
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post #18 of 58
9/8/11 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

Then Whsky,

Why did you hold back that trick from your last post? I got to do all the work around here?

It didn't occur to me.

You do good work. No need to steal your thunder.
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post #19 of 58
9/8/11 at 10:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

I would try measuring the sub pre-out with and without audyssey with dynEQ disabled. That will show what Audyssey is actually doing with the signal and may help finding a solution.

How would one measure what's coming out of the pre-out? Plug the sub cable from the receiver into the RCA jack on the sound card that you normally plug the RCA from the SPL meter into?
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post #20 of 58
9/8/11 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

It didn't occur to me.

You do good work. No need to steal your thunder.

Thank you, but the more the merrier. Jump in any time. BTW how have you been?
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post #21 of 58
9/8/11 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaball77 View Post

Now that's an interesting notion...

With the initial setup, the gain was set at about halfway (12 o'clock) on the subs, and the level in the receiver was set at about -9 if I remember correctly...

When I first contacted Hsu about the problem they suggested I turn the gain DOWN, so that's what I did... Now the gain is at about 9 o'clock and the sub level in the receiver is at -2 or -3.

The problem with experimenting and figuring this out is that the noise sounds really bad, and I really don't want to damage my subs! If it IS bottoming out the driver or the amp is clipping I don't want to keep experimenting and fry something very expensive.

Something doesn't add up if your controller is -2 and split in half, and sub gain is 9:00 and your clipping the subs..... Reasonable listening levels should not result in enough pre-out voltage to clip that easy with your setup. Try unplugging one of the subs(sub cable) and run one sub and see if it continues. Also if your cables are not good quality might upgrade those(including splitter).


What level are you listening? Reference? -10db?
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post #22 of 58
9/8/11 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Something doesn't add up if your controller is -2 and split in half, and sub gain is 9:00 and your clipping the subs..... Reasonable listening levels should not result in enough pre-out voltage to clip that easy with your setup. Try unplugging one of the subs(sub cable) and run one sub and see if it continues. Also if your cables are not good quality might upgrade those(including splitter).


What level are you listening? Reference? -10db?

The symptoms will get worse with just one ULS running. The amps in the HSU are very sensitive and because of this they do not have to be turned up very high to have alot of output. It all has to do with the implementation Of Audyssey on certain AVRs. If you re-read his first post the problem disappears when MultiEQ is turned off. I have tried to help several ppl with this same problem and there are a few instances where the ULS will not play nice with certain AVRs. My Dual drive is hooked up to a Yamaha including two other subs (all on one output with three splitters) and the subs have never bottomed out.
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post #23 of 58
9/8/11 at 10:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Something doesn't add up if your controller is -2 and split in half, and sub gain is 9:00 and your clipping the subs..... Reasonable listening levels should not result in enough pre-out voltage to clip that easy with your setup. Try unplugging one of the subs(sub cable) and run one sub and see if it continues. Also if your cables are not good quality might upgrade those(including splitter).


What level are you listening? Reference? -10db?

I think the loudest I've had the volume on the receiver during this ordeal is -17 or -16 on the receiver.

I agree that the signal shouldn't clip the sub pre-out, but who knows. I've always had trouble with this receiver triggering the auto-on feature on any of the subs I've used. Maybe it's not putting out enough signal? And who knows what Audyssey is doing to it on top of that. HomeTheaterGeek says he's seen it before on other Marantzs and Denons so it's not an isolated problem...
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post #24 of 58
9/8/11 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaball77 View Post

I think the loudest I've had the volume on the receiver during this ordeal is -17 or -16 on the receiver.

I agree that the signal shouldn't clip the sub pre-out, but who knows. I've always had trouble with this receiver triggering the auto-on feature on any of the subs I've used. Maybe it's not putting out enough signal? And who knows what Audyssey is doing to it on top of that. HomeTheaterGeek says he's seen it before on other Marantzs and Denons so it's not an isolated problem...

Are you connecting to both inputs on each ULS, by chance?

HTG: Doing great, thank you.
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post #25 of 58
9/8/11 at 11:03am
I remember having similar issues a lot with MultEQ but MultEQ XT seems to be a much better product for subwoofers.

The real downside is that it's kind of hard to see exactly what's coming off the pre-outs unless you have an O-scope/really nice DMM with an O-scope. With one, you could see the wave form as it comes out and get a better idea of when clipping occurs.
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post #26 of 58
9/8/11 at 11:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

Are you connecting to both inputs on each ULS, by chance?

HTG: Doing great, thank you.

Yes... Sub cable goes to a splitter that plugs into both RCA inputs...


........?
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post #27 of 58
9/8/11 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaball77 View Post

Yes... Sub cable goes to a splitter that plugs into both RCA inputs...


........?

Not needed on the Hsu. That could be what is causing issues too. If you hardwire the sub you only need one input. So remove the splitter first, try a scene again and if it still is acting up try my other suggestion.
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post #28 of 58
9/8/11 at 11:39am
This is the only measurement graph that I have access to at the moment. It's not the clearest but it's what I have.



Black is the electrical response out of an Onkyo 806 reciever's SW out.

Red trace is the electrical signal after running Audyssey on the system.

Blue is the electrical signal after Audyssey was run and applied again after some small changes were made.

Note what happens to the signal below 20hz and especially below 15hz on the red and blue measurements. This is VERY rough on any subwoofer. It will easily cause headroom issues with even normally quite ample systems like the OP's. (This system measured uses sealed subs FWIW.)









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post #29 of 58
9/8/11 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaball77 View Post

I think the loudest I've had the volume on the receiver during this ordeal is -17 or -16 on the receiver.

I agree that the signal shouldn't clip the sub pre-out, but who knows. I've always had trouble with this receiver triggering the auto-on feature on any of the subs I've used. Maybe it's not putting out enough signal? And who knows what Audyssey is doing to it on top of that. HomeTheaterGeek says he's seen it before on other Marantzs and Denons so it's not an isolated problem...

I'd turn down the AVR more and possibly the gain on the sub if you don't plan on using an outboard high pass/EQ, until it stops making bad noises.

Its unfortunate if the input sensitivity/gain structure is so high on your amp that it clips like that.

Maybe try to re-run Audyssey with gain on sub higher 1100-1200 and then turn down after setup?
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post #30 of 58
9/8/11 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

Not needed on the Hsu. That could be what is causing issues too. If you hardwire the sub you only need one input. So remove the splitter first, try a scene again and if it still is acting up try my other suggestion.

+1

One plug per sub into LFE. Using two would yield 3-6db increase in signal...
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Dual ULS-15's, my room, and Audyssey MultEQ...