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Sony 4K VW1000 - Page 2

post #31 of 287
9/11/11 at 6:11am
I thought they were shooting spider-man at 6k
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post #32 of 287
9/11/11 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

I thought they were shooting spider-man at 6k

Red Epic: 5K Bayer pattern demosaiced to 4K.
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post #33 of 287
9/11/11 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Disagreed on dci dlp units 2k content on 4k creams 2k on 2k content.way more film like and no stairstepping. There are zero artifacts produced by frame quadrupling on cinema dlp both in the ti board or imb board.

So if that is any indication, the Sony despite lcos may be ok playing 2k on 4k.

I am sure you know this but just in case..... Whether you see any jaggies depends on far more factors than the panel being 2K/1080p or 4K. Viewing distance, quality of the lens, the screen material, the true resolution of the panel and alignment thereof, artifacts in scaling and your sensitivity to seeing such things all come into play and significantly so.

The first place to start is whether on your current projector and setup you see the jaggies. If you don't, you don't have a problem that needs to be solved.

Further, keep in mind that "film like" also equals softer image. Those jaggies in moderate amount contribute to subjective feel of the image being sharper. So even if the latter is more accurate, it may not be to your liking. In the old days of very low resolution sources, we all chanted "film like" but in the era of 1080p, it doesn't quite translate as well.

Anyway, based on what I saw, the benefits are rather hard to find in this set up right now. I am hopeful that they can dial this in so that it gets closer to the ideal and give customers a choice.
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post #34 of 287
9/11/11 at 7:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Disagreed on dci dlp units 2k content on 4k creams 2k on 2k content.way more film like and no stairstepping. There are zero artifacts produced by frame quadrupling on cinema dlp both in the ti board or imb board.

So if that is any indication, the Sony despite lcos may be ok playing 2k on 4k.

Peter,
My point is that 2000 lumens with a new lamp is just in the ball park,not that I wouldn't like higher resolution and more light output.

In the case of the DCI units it isn't light or resolution but black floor.

Art
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post #35 of 287
9/11/11 at 8:23am
Black floor can be dealt with quite effective.

Those insane contrast ratio thrown around here have crushed blacks.

The dlp cinema 4k is crispy film like. I could not stand in line for Sony that long so no comment there.
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post #36 of 287
9/11/11 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Red Epic: 5K Bayer pattern demosaiced to 4K.

My mistake
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post #37 of 287
9/11/11 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Black floor can be dealt with quite effective.

Peter,
I'm all ears.

Art
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post #38 of 287
9/11/11 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

So there is some scaling problem there.

It would be the least of my worries. Scaling can be replaced by external processors. It's only a question of time before Lumagen and maybe others come out with a firmware update or new unit that scales to 4k.


Quote:


Even in the spiderman clip there were contouring.

Have you seen the 4k Spiderman clip on other (true 4k) units? If so, how does it compare?
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post #39 of 287
9/11/11 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

Scaling can be replaced by external processors. It's only a question of time before Lumagen and maybe others come out with a firmware update or new unit that scales to 4k.

Sony has been working on a killer 1080p/2K-to-4K scaling software called D.E.E.P. and its very possible that some version of it will be used by the VW1000ES built-in scaler. The big question is will it allow 1080p to be scaled to 3840x2160 to create a perfect 4:1 scaling ratio (which will create thin black bars at the top and bottom) instead of forcing everything to be scaled to 4096x2160. We shall see.

Here's a link to a video that describes it. Select the video titled "4K/2K End-to-End - The Sony 4K Roadmap" then watch from 28:30-32:00 (warning: presenter has thick Argentinian accent.)

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/video/relat...id&tp=true#top
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post #40 of 287
9/11/11 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

It would be the least of my worries. Scaling can be replaced by external processors. It's only a question of time before Lumagen and maybe others come out with a firmware update or new unit that scales to 4k.

No firmware update converts a 1080p/2K unit to 4K. A new unit would of course and I expect that to breath some life into these processors once more, assuming on-board scaling doesn't get there.

Quote:


Have you seen the 4k Spiderman clip on other (true 4k) units? If so, how does it compare?

No I have not seen it.
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post #41 of 287
9/11/11 at 1:51pm
Saw the Sony 4k demo......

left unimpressed.

Was engineering proof of concept, they have a long way to go.
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post #42 of 287
9/11/11 at 3:21pm
Also what will the colourspace be on this projector (given Xenon)? I saw the difference between P3 and 709 colourspace on the Dolby 42" LCD, today.

To my non-critical eye, this monitor looked like a nice one. Still a tiny bit of LCD viewing angle problem with dark material in the corner, when looking from the center, once I moved my head in front of the corner looking directly at it, I could discern more detail.

The sharp 85" LCD has some problems with pixel noise that looked like mosquito noise/plasma dither noise. And some motion blurring. The JVC projector on the other hand had much less issues, and looked quite good. Peter the JVC 8K Compact Projector might be for sale, it still isn't an official product with the lightengine being made by JVC, and the Optics and electronics by JVC Kenwood.
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post #43 of 287
9/11/11 at 3:27pm
I have seen the spiderman democlips on the original SRX-R110, when they demoed the first SRX projector at ISE back in 2005. I could not track all the rapid jumping around, an argument against 24P.

I have not seen the clips since.

I wasn't very impressed by the Christie 35K/4K staging projector in retroprojection set-up at IBC.
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post #44 of 287
9/11/11 at 4:44pm
very nice
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post #45 of 287
9/11/11 at 6:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Peter,
I'm all ears.

Same here.
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post #46 of 287
9/11/11 at 6:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post

Same here.


I'll give you a hint:

If you flashed a spotlight and aimed at the sky (through this 30k piece of metal plate) Batman could show up at your door.
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post #47 of 287
9/12/11 at 12:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
I have seen the spiderman democlips on the original SRX-R110, when they demoed the first SRX projector at ISE back in 2005. I could not track all the rapid jumping around, an argument against 24P.

I have not seen the clips since.

I wasn't very impressed by the Christie 35K/4K staging projector in retroprojection set-up at IBC.
i saw it this time as well and i think the source material was not good this time.

i give up since long time to rate projectors at a shows as i cant control or know how and what they feed.
also now one know the pr. settings and i can tell you you will be surprised
how bad they are sometimes at the shows!

any very important as i post for so long time with a 4k pr. the source material becomes very very important and
i must say that in the past few years i see
beside some good stills not much good 4k material.
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post #48 of 287
9/12/11 at 1:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
I'll give you a hint:

If you flashed a spotlight and aimed at the sky (through this 30k piece of metal plate) Batman could show up at your door.
lol
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post #49 of 287
9/12/11 at 6:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
I'll give you a hint:

If you flashed a spotlight and aimed at the sky (through this 30k piece of metal plate) Batman could show up at your door.
So what kind of sequential contrast can the batman aperture plate give the device ?

Art
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post #50 of 287
9/12/11 at 6:29am
I know Wolfgang, I don't have/make time for the Big Screen experience or today's d-cinema day, so I haven't seen the DCi version, set-up to make the most out of the screenings and demo's.

What do you think of the Super Hi-Vision demo(s)?
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post #51 of 287
9/12/11 at 4:37pm
with 4k x 2k squeezed on just a 0.74" panel. would that not put a huge burden on the lens? Can't we already see differences in sharpness for different size 1080 DLP panels? What size are the DLP Cinema 4k panels?
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post #52 of 287
9/12/11 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

I'll give you a hint:

If you flashed a spotlight and aimed at the sky (through this 30k piece of metal plate) Batman could show up at your door.

he heh heh heh
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post #53 of 287
9/13/11 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

I'll give you a hint:

If you flashed a spotlight and aimed at the sky (through this 30k piece of metal plate) Batman could show up at your door.

I've been hearing about the fixed contrast plates that you can add to DCI machines for a few years now but I've yet to see a high brightness DLP machine that can even approach the contrast levels of the LCOS/SXRD machines. Black crush means somebody didn't set up their PJ right, you can still get amazing contrast from the LCOS machines without crush, I've yet to see the case for reference level blacks from 3-chip DLPs. Not to say that the DLPs don't look great, but black floor still leaves a lot to be desired.

Honestly at the price point of most of the "high-end" DLPs, I'm really surprised we haven't seen them go to a fourth chip or even an LCD panel as a means for a zoned iris. Sim2 has obviously paid for the Dolby licensed tech for their FP so I don't know why they haven't thought to incorporate this type of tech into their front projector lineup. At their price point, this type of feature is justified and it would make them the standout among a sea of gray.
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post #54 of 287
9/14/11 at 2:52pm
Kris,
I agree with the fourth panel. If DPI, Barco or Sim used the Brightside tech and could achieve high on/off cr, then that would eliminate their biggest weakness. At that point, most would choose DLP over LCOS.
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post #55 of 287
9/15/11 at 1:00am
Peter, there is no correlation between "insane contrast ratios" and crushed blacks. High contrast ratios are an enabling technology that assists in making it easier to avoid crushing blacks, in reality. (If I have a bigger difference between white and black I can find more distinct shades in between to show "near blacks" as different from one another.)

If a high-contrast device is crushing blacks, it's certainly not because it's high contrast. Rather it's because it's poorly implemented.

-----

Kris, I think it was some time back, but I want to credit Darin for probably being the one to suggest it. It seems like a relatively low contrast LCD that wasn't even perfectly in the focal plane would do the job extraordinarily well and cheaply -- relatively speaking. I suppose the challenging part of such an implementation is that this low-rez, tiny LCD might not be an off-the-shelf part. But it would yield a simpler light path than a full on "extra DMD" for example in a 4-chip design there. It's not hard to imagine cutting a chunk out of an iPhone display and have a few 100 zones of light attenuation. I am speaking hypothetically of course, as said display is plenty of resolution, but not designed for this purpose and would probably not survive the heat. But someone might have the right LCD already.
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post #56 of 287
9/15/11 at 2:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

I know Wolfgang, I don't have/make time for the Big Screen experience or today's d-cinema day, so I haven't seen the DCi version, set-up to make the most out of the screenings and demo's.

What do you think of the Super Hi-Vision demo(s)?

as i was out for holiday and a business trip i not saw the super hi vision
demo so far.

as i know how close i have to sit in distance to the screen to get
the whole 4k into my eye i not think i "like" to sit more close to see the benefit a 8k picture have over a 4k image!!!

as much as i like to have more pixels i doubt that we need more than 4k.

keep in mind that our eye and brain cant see more than about 10 mil. pixels
at once and with 4k you have almost 9 mil. pixels.

sense it will make to have more than 24p in 4k like 48p or 60p like cameron push for and uncompressed material with a wider color range
and more that 8 bit color deep.
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post #57 of 287
9/15/11 at 3:26am
You wouldn't like something like this in the future.

Quote:


IBC 2011: NHK's Super Hi-Vision 8k technology

The conference award this year was awarded to NHK's Super HI-Vision, and apparently a must see. Super Hi-Vision is an 8K (7,680 x 4,320) camera and display technology developed by NHK and the BBC. Along with 8K video technologies, 3D surround sound is also incorporated.

I received my ticket from the lovely NHK crew and was shuffled into a dimly-lit room that consisted of a pair of massive projectors, a 20-foot screen, a few chairs and walls and ceilings that were peppered with Bose speakers. The demonstration started off with brief introduction to the technology followed by comparisons of SD, HD and then 8K Super-Hi Vision. Revealed was a simply breathtaking bird's eye view of a cityscape.

We then were taken to BBC's White City were an Ikegami 8K camera was feeding a live broadcast to Amsterdam.

From there we were introduced to the sound element of Super-Hi Vision. Like the picture comparisons, we first listened to a stereo mix, then a 5.1, they Super-Hi Vision 22.2 Surround Sound. I had never been so immersed in picture and sound before.

They then discussed the future of 8K and are hoping to utilize it during the London 2012 Olympic Games and further down the line incorporating it into a domestic market. They then finally ended the demo with Copa America highlights. Super-Hi Vision really came into its own. The 22.2 surround sound really gave a sense of what it would be like to be in the stadium, whilst the 8K image gave real depth - a 3D-like image (without the strain) that made the whole experience unbelievably immersive and unforgettable.

A deserved winner!


More news on the 8K future;

Quote:


BBC to debut Super Hi Vision during London Olympics

Coverage of the Games will be shown in picture quality 16 times better than HD TV on 50ft-high screens at three UK locations

In 2012 the BBC intends to erect custom-built 50ft-high screens at three locations around the UK to allow the public to catch a glimpse of the future of television, although consumers will have to wait until at least 2022 before TV sets will be available on the high street.

Super Hi Vision screens will be erected at the BBC's Pacific Quay building in Glasgow, Broadcasting House in London and – subject to negotiations – the National Media Museum in Bradford.

Quote:


BBC Announce Super HD Big Screens For London Olympics

BBC’s head of Olympic broadcasting Roger Mosey added that while news on live 3D coverage (both public and private) will come nearer the turn of the year, viewers in Bradford (England), Glasgow (Scotland), and Olympic Host City London (England) can look forward to 600-inch screens airing live coverage

The Super Hi-Vision screens are currently in the process of being produced in Japan, and are already being advertised as capable of supporting a 4320 x 7680 pixel signal (compared to the current TV maximum of 1080 x 1920), with a potential of 120fps (though the transmissions next summer will run on around half that).

Since then, the pair have managed to compress the connection speed needed for transmitting video signals (from 24Gbs to 350Mbps).

The BBC are stating a belief that Super Hi-Vision can become a ‘better long-term prospect’ than 3D broadcasting depending on further reducing production and operation costs, though NHK believe they can achieve this (and bring Super Hi-Vision to home use in Japan) by the year 2022.


From IBC 2011.




4K is so 2011.
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post #58 of 287
9/15/11 at 6:24am
Super Hi-Vision is ten years old this year;-).
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post #59 of 287
9/15/11 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Kris,
I agree with the fourth panel. If DPI, Barco or Sim used the Brightside tech and could achieve high on/off cr, then that would eliminate their biggest weakness. At that point, most would choose DLP over LCOS.
I don't agree. SIM2's Dynamic Black in their Lumis renders excellent blacks...and with a brighter more detailed picture than LCOS/SXRD. I'll be curious to see if TI releases a 4K chip to the consumer channel in response to Sony/JVC.
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post #60 of 287
9/15/11 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk
Super Hi-Vision is ten years old this year;-).
Hi-vision was always a nicer name than HDTV
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