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Ubuntu 11.10 Oneiric thread - Page 2

post #31 of 96
10/25/11 at 4:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac The Knife View Post

You and me and Linus Torvalds.

Linus Torvalds dubs GNOME 3 'unholy mess'


I'd love to see RGB tell Linus to "get out of his mother's basement" to Linus' face.

I don't consider Linus a whiny (former) Gnome user- Linus switched to XFCE and called it a day. The "whiny" comment was intended for those exhibiting helpless, victim-like behavior around the net (not necessarily in this thread), believing there is just nothing out there to replace their beloved Gnome 2.x

My point was to show there are a LOT of alternatives, and for the "victims" to stop complaining about the Gnome devs, man-up, pick another desktop environment (XFCE, KDE, E17, LXDE, etc), contribute their reviews & bug reports, and move on.
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post #32 of 96
10/27/11 at 3:45pm
I kinda like Unity! I've given up fighting with Linux as an HTPC frontend at this point and analog cable has pretty much gone away here (have to use a lameass digital terminal adapter thingy now for basic cable!) for my Myth backend so I'm not facing what many of you are when it comes to lean and mean requirements. I'm primarily running it in a VM so I don't have 3D acceleration so my biggest complaint is that I can't autohide the bar. Other than that, it seems pretty damn good to me for a desktop OS. My server/backend is still back on the last LTS version so it's still running Gnome.

-Trouble
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post #33 of 96
10/28/11 at 7:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubleshooter View Post

I kinda like Unity! -Trouble

I think Unity and/or Gnome3 Shell will have their place, especialy among Linux noobs and the Moms/nieces/less tech saavy userbase. What is an "unholy mess" for tech-oriented users may be a usable, accessible environment to average J6P/Mom's of the World, weaned on iOS and Android devices.

Once Unity/Gnome3 Shell are relatively bug-free and feature complete, they may make suitable media PC/HTPC front ends. Their UI paradigm may be better for big screen/remote/10 foot use.

I am lucky in that WideOpenWest has decided to leave basic digital cable unencrypted- all the unscrambled 80+ channels I used to get in analog NTSC cable are now unscrambled clearQAM digital SD. So, no issues with any old QAM tuner and MythTV.

Quote:


I've given up fighting with Linux as an HTPC frontend at this point

So you are not using any Linux for your media/HTPC's?
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post #34 of 96
10/28/11 at 11:27am
I hate Unity (with a fiery passion), but I love Gnome 3 Shell, but yet I don't like Macs UI - is that strange?

Backlash for new UIs - its certainly not surprising. See Windows XP -> Vista (doesn't help Vista was just a crappy OS). or Office 2003 -> 2007 ribbon interface (which I despise).

It seems the Gnome people are doing what everyone other UI designer is doing - Have a fancy yet simple UI.
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post #35 of 96
10/28/11 at 5:38pm
Nope, I'm running Win7 on all frontends now. Myth was the one app left that mattered and there's even a semi-decent Mythfrontend for Windows now. I don't have to mess with audio configuration or video drivers anymore and that was what was killing me with just too much effort if anything changed. I get MS software through work so that really tipped me over. At the same time, Linux will certainly continue to run my servers.

-Trouble
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post #36 of 96
10/29/11 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgb View Post

I don't consider Linus a whiny (former) Gnome user- Linus switched to XFCE and called it a day. The "whiny" comment was intended for those exhibiting helpless, victim-like behavior around the net (not necessarily in this thread), believing there is just nothing out there to replace their beloved Gnome 2.x

My point was to show there are a LOT of alternatives, and for the "victims" to stop complaining about the Gnome devs, man-up, pick another desktop environment (XFCE, KDE, E17, LXDE, etc), contribute their reviews & bug reports, and move on.

I think we are having a little fun here.

Personally, I don't care if Linus likes it or not. This is a personal choice on what one prefers. The great thing about Linux/Unix is that there is a choice. One can choose the standard desktop or customize it. Until Unity, I always liked the standard layout of Ubuntu. It is why I switched from PC-BSD. I hated KDE 4, but now it looks like I can customize it to how I like it. Once I finish consolidating my hard drive, I am going to get my new mobo and graphics card plugged in. I am going to stick with 11.04 Classic, but I will install K and X on another drive and give them a more thorough workout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubleshooter View Post

I kinda like Unity! I've given up fighting with Linux as an HTPC frontend at this point and analog cable has pretty much gone away here (have to use a lameass digital terminal adapter thingy now for basic cable!) for my Myth backend so I'm not facing what many of you are when it comes to lean and mean requirements. I'm primarily running it in a VM so I don't have 3D acceleration so my biggest complaint is that I can't autohide the bar. Other than that, it seems pretty damn good to me for a desktop OS. My server/backend is still back on the last LTS version so it's still running Gnome.

-Trouble

Wow, you are one of the few people that I have seen that like it. I am glad someone likes it for Canonical's sake. Maybe in a few more generations I will come to accept it.
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post #37 of 96
10/29/11 at 12:41pm
I just upgraded my new install, from 11.04 to 11.10. I am attempting to install the Intel video driver from source, and I needed the newest kernel.

I had reverted 11.04 to the "classic desktop", but the upgrade switched it back. I am going to try and just use Unity, as I am tired of constantly fighting the changes.
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post #38 of 96
10/29/11 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterhead View Post

I just upgraded my new install, from 11.04 to 11.10. I am attempting to install the Intel video driver from source, and I needed the newest kernel.

I had reverted 11.04 to the "classic desktop", but the upgrade switched it back. I am going to try and just use Unity, as I am tired of constantly fighting the changes.

Why do I hear Kurt Cobain singing "Rape Me" over and over in my head?

Have you tried Xubuntu or Kubuntu?
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post #39 of 96
10/29/11 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

Why do I hear Kurt Cobain singing "Rape Me" over and over in my head?

Have you tried Xubuntu or Kubuntu?

I could just log out and select "Ubuntu Classic", much easier than installing another desktop environment. If I can get used to finding my apps, it should be OK.

Besides, this is a HTPC, and Unity may be better for using a remote.
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post #40 of 96
10/31/11 at 6:17pm
I thought you didn't have the option of Classic in 11.10.
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post #41 of 96
10/31/11 at 9:18pm
I don't know about that. I first installed 11.04, and did an upgrade to 11.10. Maybe that makes a difference.
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post #42 of 96
11/5/11 at 1:59pm
Xubuntu review:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/...and-my-netbook

He liked it enough to install it on his netbook.
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post #43 of 96
11/5/11 at 6:32pm
I prefer Unity, it seems a little rough but I can see where they are going with it. I use a Mac daily so I see some similarities, I also use android devices, phones, tablets and can see where this interface would work very well with them. I've still got gnome running on my servers but for new devices I am prototyping I am using unity and so far it's working pretty well for me and my customers.Time will tell.
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post #44 of 96
11/6/11 at 8:34am
I think I may download 11.10 and give Unity another look, but I doubt I will change my mind. I tried it yesterday again for a couple of minutes and was still frustrated. Like I have said, I am glad some people out there like it. Hopefully it will get better and evolve into something I like.

I was reading the story of MS Courier yesterday. I thought it interesting that they were looking to do the separate approach like Apple and KDE. Of course, MS killed it and now will make 8 basically an all in one. If there is this many people complaining about Unity, then how many people will complain about 8?
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post #45 of 96
11/6/11 at 9:31am
I never said that I liked Unity. Only that I was getting used to it. I know others said that they liked it, though.
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post #46 of 96
11/7/11 at 5:47pm
For anyone who prefers a classic fully featured desktop there is TDE 3.5.13 (the KDE 3.5.10 successor) which was just released a few days ago. It's also available for Ubuntu (in fact Ubuntu is their main dev platform), you can install it in a few minutes.

See here for easy to follow install instructions:
http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php

I have tested it on Scientifc Linux 6.1 and it works great, so much faster and more intuitive than all these bloated eye-candy DEs...
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post #47 of 96
11/8/11 at 5:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

For anyone who prefers a classic fully featured desktop there is TDE 3.5.13 (the KDE 3.5.10 successor) which was just released a few days ago. It's also available for Ubuntu (in fact Ubuntu is their main dev platform), you can install it in a few minutes.

See here for easy to follow install instructions:
http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php

I have tested it on Scientifc Linux 6.1 and it works great, so much faster and more intuitive than all these bloated eye-candy DEs...

Thanks for the info and refs.

Now that I've got broadband on the internet, I'll give the 2GB 10.10 Kubuntu/Trinity a try.
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post #48 of 96
11/8/11 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

For anyone who prefers a classic fully featured desktop there is TDE 3.5.13 (the KDE 3.5.10 successor) which was just released a few days ago. It's also available for Ubuntu (in fact Ubuntu is their main dev platform), you can install it in a few minutes.

See here for easy to follow install instructions:
http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php

I have tested it on Scientifc Linux 6.1 and it works great, so much faster and more intuitive than all these bloated eye-candy DEs...

I read about that recently. I may take a look. I have heard that Gnome 2 may live on in the hands of other developers. It looks like there are more options than I can count.

I tried installing 11.10 on Sunday, but it didn't work for some reason. I will give it another go, when I can. I played with Kubuntu again and became frustrated. I tried moving a file from a USB stick to the desktop and it wouldn't take. Did I miss something or can you not put stuff on the desktop?
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post #49 of 96
11/8/11 at 11:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

I read about that recently. I may take a look. I have heard that Gnome 2 may live on in the hands of other developers. It looks like there are more options than I can count.

One Gnome 2.x fork is called Mate-

https://github.com/Perberos/Mate-Desktop-Environment

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/MATE

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/08/gnome-2-forked/

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1801892


Comments and a call for a Gnome 2.x fork from Linus-

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/N...lix-for-Linux/
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post #50 of 96
11/8/11 at 12:12pm
Thread Starter 
Another take on the recent Gnome3/Unity turmoil.

I think some people around the web are going overboard with the Canonical/Unity bashing.

The KDE, XFCE and LXDE flavors of Ubuntu have been in circulation for years, partly for occasions such as this. At least linux distros don't have all their UI eggs in one basket like Windows and OSX. To reiterate, any distro worth the CD it's burned on releases spins with these major desktops at a minimum.

So what if the "default" flavor uses a desktop you don't like!?

Is it a bad thing that Linux-land got two new desktops out in the wild (Gnome3 and Unity)?

And now we have Gnome 2.x and KDE 3.5x forks, so that's a net gain of 4 new DE's!

Also, Canonical (and all distros with Gnome as default) weren't to blame for the big Gnome UI shakeup. So, there are only three options for all distros out there:

1) Use whatever the Gnome team releases (every distro does that)
2) Switch to another established DE (KDE, XFCE, LXDE, etc) for your default distro.
3) Develop your own DE/UI.

Canonical chose the third option, which while bold and resource-consuming, I think it fits with their "Linux for Human Beings" motto. I suspect the Gnome devs didn't want to take constructive criticism and/or design guidelines from Canonical, so Ubuntu did their own thing (I don't know the sordid details of the Gnome/Canonical break, just guessing). Funny thing- a few years ago, I believe Canonical was contemplating moving to KDE as the default UI. Mint appears to be attempting #1+3 in their next release, which will decrease reliability, introducing more bugs.

Ubuntu was never *designed* for developers/software engineers/tech users like some of us and Linus, who are not "Human Beings" . It was designed for Moms, nieces, and J6P's without technical know-how and want to use the OS out of the box. In order to have complete control over the UI/user experience, you must do it yourself. FOSS developers don't like to be told what to do.

Some of us tech-saavy users simply rode the ease-of-install and hardware recognition coattails of the Ubuntu's of the world, taking whatever DE/UI was default.

I plan to test Gnome3 and Unity out on the Mom's and nieces I build PC's for over the next months and through next year, to see their reactions and opinions- they are the target for Gnome3 and Unity. If Gnome3/Unity are usable for media PC's and/or tech saavy desktop users, that's just a bonus but no big loss otherwise.

I have had great luck with Xubuntu 11.10 over the past month on my primary desktop quad core/GF8200 A/V editing machine. I am very happy with it and have tweaked the UI to be better than what I had with Gnome2. I am not aware of any functional shortcoming of XFCE 4.8 vs Gnome 2.3x that I can tell so far.

Not to beat a dead horse, but Gnome 2.3x was not that stable or glitch free for me anyways, so I was ready for a change- I didn't like Nautilus and the desktop was buggy for me too often- could have been only on Ubuntu, but the glitches occurred across releases and even in Gnome on Mint. XFCE 4.8+ appears more stable than Gnome 2.3x was, and I like the current Thunar file manager better, as well as the latest Dolphin (KDE file manager), which looks and runs great on XFCE.
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post #51 of 96
11/8/11 at 8:09pm
I agree on the multiple desktops. I have Unity on my sister and mom's laptops. My mom hasn't known anything else, but seems to like it. My sister has used all of the Window's flavors. I will ask her what she thinks. Hopefully innovative development will continue with all of the desktops.

The only thing I hope doesn't happen is what was discussed on Distrowatch. Unity may have taken up a lot of resources at Canonical.
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post #52 of 96
11/9/11 at 6:59am
Thread Starter 
Excellent /. discussion this morning re: Gnome3/Unity/Metro UI controversy-

Ask Slashdot: Unity/Gnome 3/Win8/iOS — Do We Really Hate All New GUIs?


http://ask.slashdot.org/story/11/11/...e-all-new-guis

The ensuing discussion reflects most of the points made in this thread, with additional comments supporting the idea that small screen output-centric (media consumption) interfaces and large screen input-centric (media creation/editing) interfaces should be separate.

Also, some props for the KDE team there in recognizing these differing small vs large screen and touch vs mouse use cases.

More interesting UI discussion earlier this year-
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/03...ximize-buttons
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post #53 of 96
11/11/11 at 3:04am
Thread Starter 
Interview from 11/09 with RHEL engineer and Fedora XFCE Spin team member Adam Miller on XFCE-

http://spins.fedoraproject.org/commu...dammiller.html
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post #54 of 96
11/11/11 at 2:18pm
I don't want to get too far off topic, but since you brought up Fedora...

I would love to ditch Ubuntu and go back to my first Linux distro, Fedora. What I don't like about it is it's very short version cycle. It seems I just get everything the way I like it, and it is no longer supported. It is also more difficult to upgrade to the newer versions, where Ubuntu is very simple and easy.

I vote for a long-term-release version of Fedora. Although it would go against their "cutting-edge-Linux" policy.
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post #55 of 96
11/12/11 at 2:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterhead View Post

I don't want to get too far off topic, but since you brought up Fedora...

I would love to ditch Ubuntu and go back to my first Linux distro, Fedora. What I don't like about it is it's very short version cycle. It seems I just get everything the way I like it, and it is no longer supported. It is also more difficult to upgrade to the newer versions, where Ubuntu is very simple and easy.

I vote for a long-term-release version of Fedora. Although it would go against their "cutting-edge-Linux" policy.

You might like openSUSE Tumbleweed: http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed

I'm waiting for 12.1 to be released on Wednesday before I switch over to the Tumbleweed repos. I'll fire up a distro thread after I get it loaded.
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post #56 of 96
11/12/11 at 4:45am
I used to use SuSE, after first using Fedora. I got tired of not being able to update the kernel to a newer version. Like RedHat, SuSE would patch the kernel that was originally released with a distro version. If you wanted to use a newer version, you had to compile it yourself.

While nice, I most likely won't return to using SuSE.
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post #57 of 96
11/12/11 at 10:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterhead View Post

I used to use SuSE, after first using Fedora. I got tired of not being able to update the kernel to a newer version. Like RedHat, SuSE would patch the kernel that was originally released with a distro version. If you wanted to use a newer version, you had to compile it yourself.

While nice, I most likely won't return to using SuSE.

You can use the vanilla kernel package which is built daily from current unadulterated kernel sources: http://kernel.opensuse.org/branches/vanilla

Apologies to RGB for the semi-threadjack.
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post #58 of 96
11/15/11 at 8:43pm
I just installed my new Biostar mobo. I decided to go back to 11.04 and the Classic UI. I figure I have another year before this one isn't supported to find a new OS. I tried 11.10 Unity and still didn't like it. I have another hard drive that I will use for experimental purposes. The four main ones I want to play with are Xubuntu, Kubuntu, Mint 12 and PC-BSD 9.
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post #59 of 96
11/16/11 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

I just installed my new Biostar mobo. I decided to go back to 11.04 and the Classic UI. I figure I have another year before this one isn't supported to find a new OS. I tried 11.10 Unity and still didn't like it. I have another hard drive that I will use for experimental purposes. The four main ones I want to play with are Xubuntu, Kubuntu, Mint 12 and PC-BSD 9.

PC-BSD is just KDE4, right?
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post #60 of 96
11/16/11 at 1:56pm
No, they have been using KDE up until this upcoming release. When PC-BSD 9.0 comes out, you will supposedly be able to choose which desktop you want to use. I am not sure if that is during install or on the install screen. It was Jim Lynch's review over at Extremetech four years ago that got me to switch full time to Linux/BSD.
http://www.extremetech.com/computing...st-of-us-pcbsd
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