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Sub Suggetions for a fairly large/open family room - Page 2

post #31 of 90
9/22/11 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Agreed that's it's certainly not the "best" choice for music. I was more impressed with his comments centered around it's use in a HT environment, which is predominantly my area of interest for this system.

I don't own either sub, just my observation.

The inability to do justice to the mid-bass is a serious deficit. When you read enough tests and reviews you realize how important the mid-bass is. I'm sure that 8 inch driver in the M-L Clarity is a mid-bass monster.

I encourage you to get a Trinity, it might suit you perfectly.
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post #32 of 90
9/28/11 at 9:54am
Thread Starter 
At this point it's pretty much between a pair of new Empires vs. a pair of new VTF-15H's. Both seem like amazing subs.

Pros for the Empires:
-Smaller footprint
-Better mid bass slam
-Slightly cheaper
-4 drivers total, more overall RMS power (not sure how much of a benefit this is though)

Pros for the VTFs:
-Overall build quality and WAF
-Really haven't heard anything negative about these (amp issues, etc) other than their physical size, which isn't a huge issue for me.
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post #33 of 90
9/28/11 at 10:55am
You're trying to fill such a huge cu.ft. area,it sucks up bass like crazy. Is there any way you can seal off some of it by installing a wall,door or French doors? I'm using 2 Empires in a listening area of about 4000 cu.ft. and I don't get that heavy chest pounding thud others here talk about. I think it's just the nature of a sealed design. That being said, they sound awesome for soundtracks and music. In your case, you'd probably be better off with ported subs.
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post #34 of 90
9/28/11 at 11:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTFanboi1200 View Post

You're trying to fill such a huge cu.ft. area,it sucks up bass like crazy. Is there any way you can seal off some of it by installing a wall,door or French doors? I'm using 2 Empires in a listening area of about 4000 cu.ft. and I don't get that heavy chest pounding thud others here talk about. I think it's just the nature of a sealed design. That being said, they sound awesome for soundtracks and music. In your case, you'd probably be better off with ported subs.

Honestly the openings are pretty huge (ex. opening to kitchen is probably 20 feet wide) so doors/walls are probably not a viable option. As an alternative, I could move the subs to my basement system which is a much smaller area. Maybe I'll try to snap a picture in the evening to give you an idea.

I appreciate the input about going ported though. Being my use will be mostly home theater, that may point me in the ported/Hsu direction. At this point the only other option worth considering would be a pair of FV15HP's, but then I'm looking at another 500+ in cost for possibly only a marginal increase in output.
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post #35 of 90
9/28/11 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTFanboi1200 View Post

You're trying to fill such a huge cu.ft. area,it sucks up bass like crazy. Is there any way you can seal off some of it by installing a wall,door or French doors? I'm using 2 Empires in a listening area of about 4000 cu.ft. and I don't get that heavy chest pounding thud others here talk about. I think it's just the nature of a sealed design. That being said, they sound awesome for soundtracks and music. In your case, you'd probably be better off with ported subs.

Exactly. As I stated earlier about a week ago in this thread. My room is a little bit bigger than yours it sounds like. I've had 4 MFW's in there and it didn't satisfy me as much I thought it would. Going with 2 Empires even though there is the same amount of drivers, might not get you the impact you might think since they are sealed vs ported. I haven't heard an empire so I can't speak from experience on them. But you definitely don't want to buy a couple of subs, and end up being disappointed. That's happened to me many many times when dealing with my huge room.

I just remembered that bsoko2 used to run quad empires (quad empires! ) in an area that I think was like 8500 cubic feet or so? Maybe he could give you a good idea how well duals would run since your area is somewhat similar in size it sounds like.
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post #36 of 90
9/28/11 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I appreciate the input about going ported though. Being my use will be mostly home theater, that may point me in the ported/Hsu direction. At this point the only other option worth considering would be a pair of FV15HP's, but then I'm looking at another 500+ in cost for possibly only a marginal increase in output.

Given the circumstances I would tend to agree with going ported as well. You're probably going to need a lot of horsepower to fill that room. Have you considered a pair of F25's by chance?
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post #37 of 90
9/28/11 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Exactly. As I stated earlier about a week ago in this thread. My room is a little bit bigger than yours it sounds like. I've had 4 MFW's in there and it didn't satisfy me as much I thought it would. Going with 2 Empires even though there is the same amount of drivers, might not get you the impact you might think since they are sealed vs ported. I haven't heard an empire so I can't speak from experience on them. But you definitely don't want to buy a couple of subs, and end up being disappointed. That's happened to me many many times when dealing with my huge room.

I just remembered that bsoko2 used to run quad empires (quad empires! ) in an area that I think was like 8500 cubic feet or so? Maybe he could give you a good idea how well duals would run since your area is somewhat similar in size it sounds like.

Bill ran quad Empires and an Epik Conquest at the same time. I think that for large and extra large spaces, ported/passive radiator subs are more cost effective than sealed unless you can DIY.
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post #38 of 90
9/28/11 at 1:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Exactly. As I stated earlier about a week ago in this thread. My room is a little bit bigger than yours it sounds like. I've had 4 MFW's in there and it didn't satisfy me as much I thought it would. Going with 2 Empires even though there is the same amount of drivers, might not get you the impact you might think since they are sealed vs ported. I haven't heard an empire so I can't speak from experience on them. But you definitely don't want to buy a couple of subs, and end up being disappointed. That's happened to me many many times when dealing with my huge room.

I just remembered that bsoko2 used to run quad empires (quad empires! ) in an area that I think was like 8500 cubic feet or so? Maybe he could give you a good idea how well duals would run since your area is somewhat similar in size it sounds like.

Honestly, if the sound was worth the space/budget compromise, quad empires aren't even all that expensive for what you get. A little over 3k including shipping would do the trick. However, space for 4 subs in the right places I doubt would fly with the wife. Cramming 2 mammoth ported Hsu's will probably already get in me trouble, lol.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Given the circumstances I would tend to agree with going ported as well. You're probably going to need a lot of horsepower to fill that room. Have you considered a pair of F25's by chance?

I'm sure dual F25's would be pretty killer, but unfortunately there is no ETA on those subs coming out. Apparently they're working on an 800W version though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Bill ran quad Empires and an Epik Conquest at the same time. I think that for large and extra large spaces, ported/passive radiator subs are more cost effective than sealed unless you can DIY.

Word.

Note* - Couple of changes to my setup:

I've been experimenting with placement with my current RW12 and have gotten it to the point where it actually makes some decent impact. It's nothing that will move furniture around or anything, but it's at least decent and gives me hope for my big room when I get a couple monsters in there.

I've also swapped out my ML Clarities with my basement speakers, Def Tech BP30's. The BP30 midbass completely blows away the MLs. Really looking forward to getting some real subs in here now.
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post #39 of 90
9/29/11 at 5:27am
Thread Starter 
Well another wrench in the decision....The Rythmik subs seem to be on sale:

FV15HP in the black vinyl for only 1079/ea or in piano black for 1259/each. Pretty solid deal and hard to overlook.
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post #40 of 90
9/29/11 at 6:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Well another wrench in the decision....The Rythmik subs seem to be on sale:

FV15HP in the black vinyl for only 1079/ea or in piano black for 1259/each. Pretty solid deal and hard to overlook.

Where do you see the sale prices? I did not see the sale price on Rythmik's or Ascend's website.
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post #41 of 90
9/29/11 at 7:07am
Ported subs are the way to go in a huge room. Of the subs you listed the two standouts are the SVS Ultra and the Rythmik FV-15HP. There is a lot of hype when it comes to ID subs, so stick with proven models. The proof is in the reviews:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...ofers/svs-pb13

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...rythmik-fv15hp

One SVS now or two Rythmiks is the way to go, one SVS now and adding a second later would be the best.
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post #42 of 90
9/29/11 at 7:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kb4all View Post

Where do you see the sale prices? I did not see the sale price on Rythmik's or Ascend's website.

I had to add to the cart and calculate shipping to see the discount. I kind of stumbled on it by accident as I was pricing out a set of Piano black FV15hps.

Edit - Nevermind. That is the discount for buying multiples. I'm looking at 2758 shipped to my place for a pair of piano black HPs. Definitely more than I wanted to spend, but may be worth saving for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Ported subs are the way to go in a huge room. Of the subs you listed the two standouts are the SVS Ultra and the Rythmik FV-15HP. There is a lot of hype when it comes to ID subs, so stick with proven models. The proof is in the reviews:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...ofers/svs-pb13

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...rythmik-fv15hp

One SVS now or two Rythmiks is the way to go, one SVS now and adding a second later would be the best.

Great, thanks for the links. I'd skimmed through the Rythmik review earlier but hadn't read it in detail. From the sounds of it the FV15HP may not be too far behind the Ultra in terms of raw output across a usable frequency spectrum. I'd think a pair of them would really rock.
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post #43 of 90
9/30/11 at 7:12am
Thread Starter 
Having done a substantial amount of research in the past week, the decision is now almost harder to make with so many damn options! The budget is now 2000-2500, which leaves me with the following:

Dual Hsu VTF-15H's (~2000 shipped)
Dual Rythmik FV15HP's in either black oak or piano black (2400-2750 shipped). Perhaps getting the 550W amp is an option to lower total costs ~150.
Dual Rythmik FV15's (2100 shipped)
Single JTR Cap with external amp (1650 for sub + ~500 for a good pro amp)

I hadn't realized the Cap was within budget until recently. My only concern with the cap in such a large room with only one sub would *possibly* allow the sub to be localized fairly easily. Positioning midwall is not possible. Am I just being crazy?

I'd like to consider the Submersive HP as well, but at 24"+ wide, my placement options would be a bit more limited.
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post #44 of 90
9/30/11 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Having done a substantial amount of research in the past week, the decision is now almost harder to make with so many damn options! The budget is now 2000-2500, which leaves me with the following:

Dual Hsu VTF-15H's (~2000 shipped)
Dual Rythmik FV15HP's in either black oak or piano black (2400-2750 shipped). Perhaps getting the 550W amp is an option to lower total costs ~150.
Dual Rythmik FV15's (2100 shipped)
Single JTR Cap with external amp (1650 for sub + ~500 for a good pro amp)

I hadn't realized the Cap was within budget until recently. My only concern with the cap in such a large room with only one sub would *possibly* allow the sub to be localized fairly easily. Positioning midwall is not possible. Am I just being crazy?

I'd like to consider the Submersive HP as well, but at 24"+ wide, my placement options would be a bit more limited.

The fact that several people have switched from dual SVS PB-13 Ultras to a Captivator might shed some light on your dilemma.
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post #45 of 90
9/30/11 at 10:21am
I have my Captivator in the front corner and even with a high crossover I can't locate it at all.

You can get a Behringer ep4000 for under 300, ask Archea - I think he got his for 279?

I may have already stated this, but I've heard a single passive Cap and dual Ultras in the same room and preferred the Captivator. The Ultras were not co-located.
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post #46 of 90
9/30/11 at 10:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I have my Captivator in the front corner and even with a high crossover I can't locate it at all.

You can get a Behringer ep4000 for under 300, ask Archea - I think he got his for 279?

I may have already stated this, but I've heard a single passive Cap and dual Ultras in the same room and preferred the Captivator. The Ultras were not co-located.

Actually your post in my thread on the first page was what made me start investigating. You're right, the Behringer can be had for pretty cheap. I really like the fact that the depth of the Cap is very manageable and most of the volume is in it's height. I could 'hide' it in the corner pretty easily.

Good to hear your feedback regarding it not being localized. Do you have an EQ on yours?
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post #47 of 90
9/30/11 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Actually your post in my thread on the first page was what made me start investigating. You're right, the Behringer can be had for pretty cheap. I really like the fact that the depth of the Cap is very manageable and most of the volume is in it's height. I could 'hide' it in the corner pretty easily.

Good to hear your feedback regarding it not being localized. Do you have an EQ on yours?

Yeah, the Cap really doesn't look as crazy big as I thought it would once I got it in the room.

I am using the SMS-1 and I really like it because you can see everything on the tv and you can create your own presets but it isn't cheap, I got mine for 350 which I guess it a pretty good deal. The Cap has so much power that you can make it sound however you want and not get any distortion (at least none that I can detect) if you have some kind of eq.

If you decide on a Captivator I would talk to Jeff and see if he has the driver for it right now. If he has to order the driver you could be looking at a very long wait. It's not his fault, he's at the mercy of his supplier.
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post #48 of 90
10/1/11 at 6:23am
I'm not up to date on the newest amps with built in eq, I bet you could get something cheaper than my sms-1 ep4000 combo that would give you the same results.
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post #49 of 90
10/2/11 at 6:17am
Thread Starter 
I've been looking at the ep4000 as well as the inuke3000 which has built in dsp/eq for only a few dollars more. Now to find out availability on the cap before I get too excited about it. I can't imagine prepaying and having to wait 3-4 months like some had stated in the cap thread.
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post #50 of 90
10/3/11 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I've been looking at the ep4000 as well as the inuke3000 which has built in dsp/eq for only a few dollars more. Now to find out availability on the cap before I get too excited about it. I can't imagine prepaying and having to wait 3-4 months like some had stated in the cap thread.

Man, let us know what you decide on. I have a couple of STF-2's in a room that is 18x18 with a vaulted ceiling opening up into the upstairs gameroom that is 16x16, and on one side opens up into the kitchen that is 24x12. I've got approximately 11k cf to fill up. The bass is non-existent, and they were something I used in the interim before I wanted to figure out what to do.

This thread is pretty interesting. I was leaning towards 2 empires but now maybe not. Are you guys saying we would get more output from 2 rythmiks ie 2 drivers instead of 4 drivers on the dual empires just because they are sealed?

How is CHT on customer service/reliability? I see what Gorrilla says but are there any other opinions?
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post #51 of 90
10/3/11 at 4:14pm
Thread Starter 
The more thinking I do the more I realize I'm most concerned with equal bass distribution and sound quality more than just raw SPL in this room. I really want to do a dual sub setup in this environment and I'm leaning most toward a pair of the VTF's at this point. As a side note I've gotten my single RW12 to sound pretty damn good (I know, hard to believe) now that it's placed in an optimal position, which gives me high hopes for the Hsu's in the room. I've been working with Pete to work out a group buy for anyone interested - see my thread. I'll be looking to purchase these within the next 2-3 weeks.

With that said, the captivator still has me captivated. The plan for now is to do the 2 Hsu's in the living room (the room I mentioned here) and a captivator in my downstairs room to replace a way underpowered Polk PSW505. The downstairs room is roughly 32x18x9 open to another large area. With the upcoming holidays, I'm going to work the Captivator in there some how as a 'partial' gift.
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post #52 of 90
10/3/11 at 4:15pm
If you're going to double your budget look at getting 4 of the CHT's on closeout. That'll definitely give you some immense bass for a hair over 2k.
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post #53 of 90
10/3/11 at 4:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

If you're going to double your budget look at getting 4 of the CHT's on closeout. That'll definitely give you some immense bass for a hair over 2k.

Without a doubt that is a huge value. The main issue in this room would be finding non-obtrusive places for 4 large subwoofers. Getting the wife to accept 2 at this point was already a challenge, lol!

The overall feedback on the CHT stuff seems to be pretty solid though. An added positive for me was that I'd be able to pick up in person since they are in PA.

Edit: I didn't realize they had the 18.2 available which is essentially a single cube housing dual 18's. Sounds badass.
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post #54 of 90
10/3/11 at 4:31pm
OMG Gorilla, you're making this more difficult than it is,lol. Buy 4 subs and STACK 'EM in 2 locations
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post #55 of 90
10/3/11 at 6:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Without a doubt that is a huge value. The main issue in this room would be finding non-obtrusive places for 4 large subwoofers. Getting the wife to accept 2 at this point was already a challenge, lol!

The overall feedback on the CHT stuff seems to be pretty solid though. An added positive for me was that I'd be able to pick up in person since they are in PA.

Just hide them with a plant. You'll never see 'em
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post #56 of 90
10/6/11 at 9:19am
What's the verdict? Have you decided yet?
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post #57 of 90
10/6/11 at 9:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Without a doubt that is a huge value. The main issue in this room would be finding non-obtrusive places for 4 large subwoofers. Getting the wife to accept 2 at this point was already a challenge, lol!

The overall feedback on the CHT stuff seems to be pretty solid though. An added positive for me was that I'd be able to pick up in person since they are in PA.

Then again, you will have to pay state sales tax.
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post #58 of 90
10/6/11 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Then again, you will have to pay state sales tax.

That's a lot cheaper than shipping four of those bad boys. ( I would think so anyway)
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post #59 of 90
10/6/11 at 1:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

That's a lot cheaper than shipping four of those bad boys. ( I would think so anyway)

Found out their warehouse is in Erie, PA so that's pretty much out of the question for local pickup.

OK - So I want to do a bit of experimenting. I ordered a new EP4000 last night and want to try a few different passive setups. I found a pair of like new Chase SS 18.T subs locally that were hard to pass up for experimentation purposes. This means a bit of savings, no tax, and no shipping. I'm going to try them out and order a passive JTR cap (or something close) within the next month or so and see how they compare. Of course I don't expect the CHT set to have nearly the output of the cap, but for the price (especially used) they appear to be outstanding. One set will wind up in the basement and the other in the living room.

I also didn't realize at first that Chase still has the 18.2's (twin 18's in a single 40" tall cab) in stock. A pair of these and a couple thousand watts would probably really rock the house. They are priced at 700 each, and shipping for a pair is 250. 1650 is about the same price as a shipped passive cap I believe. Dual 18.2's vs. Cap???
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post #60 of 90
10/6/11 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Found out there warehouse is in Erie, PA so that's pretty much out of the question for local pickup.

OK - So I want to do a bit of experimenting. I ordered a new EP4000 last night and want to try a few different passive setups. I found a pair of like new Chase SS 18.T subs locally that were hard to pass up for experimentation purposes. This means a bit of savings, no tax, and no shipping. I'm going to try them out and order a passive JTR cap (or something close) within the next month or so and see how they compare. Of course I don't expect the CHT set to have nearly the output of the cap, but for the price (especially used) they appear to be outstanding. One set will wind up in the basement and the other in the living room.

I also didn't realize at first that Chase still has the 18.2's (twin 18's in a single 40" tall cab) in stock. A pair of these and a couple thousand watts would probably really rock the house. They are priced at 700 each, and shipping for a pair is 250. 1650 is about the same price as a shipped passive cap I believe. Dual 18.2's vs. Cap???

MKTheater has owned the 18.2 and has a pretty impressive amount of experience with different subs including Danley and others. At one time he had 8 sealed 18 inch running in the same room.

You might want to send him a PM.
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