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X-Men First Class - Page 2

post #31 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADDUpstate View Post

A lot of good commentary here... I was away for the weekend, so just catching up.

I have also figured out a couple of things...

I re-eq'd my subs a while back, which raised the trim on my AVR and decreased the subs' gain. However, I didn't readjust and reduce my transducer amp to reflect this. That was probably the main contributor to my overly heavy bass effect. I have now readjusted everything, and will rewatch the movie.

In general, it just seemed like every scene had deep bass in it, which just wore me out. I like the LFE to be used more sparingly I guess, so it takes you by surprise in a big scene. Like Master and Commander or The Patriot. I like the deep stuff, just not in every scene. It just seemed like it was overused IMO.

You are in the wrong area to not like bass all the time. The bass in X-men was a good quality type as well as high spl. All movies should be like this as long as it follows the story line. This was done well IMHO.
post #32 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hksvr4 View Post

Good mix IMO. Not too much or too little.

Agreed....that was a fun movie to watch (and listen to).

OP....don't know what your set up is like, but it sounds like something is askew.

Let us know your hardware and config, maybe we can help you with it.
post #33 of 194
I thought the end battle was great but it had some revenge of the fallen moments when you thought there should have been crazy bass and then there wasn't. Magneto in the jet with the sub and that cool music playing was impressive visually and musically but not in the LFE department when he dropped it. I was expecting more.
post #34 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookie b View Post

Any specific scenes that stood out? I watched it last night, but I must have had it turned down a little bit because I didn't notice any of that punch in your chest bass, plus my family was asleep. I'd like to crank it up and watch a few scenes again before I return it to Blockbuster.

Re-watched some of the scenes mentioned at about 6db louder, and it was much better. Subtle bass, but it was definitely there. I liked it. Now just to get my wife to watch movies as loud as I want to!
post #35 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookie b View Post

Re-watched some of the scenes mentioned at about 6db louder, and it was much better. Subtle bass, but it was definitely there. I liked it. Now just to get my wife to watch movies as loud as I want to!

What you need are main speakers that don't sound loud when they actually are doing 90+db sequences

Inferior speakers "sound loud" to women imo.
post #36 of 194
Got it rented for tonight. Can't wait. These are the movies I built my theater for.

120" projection screen with JVC projector.

And for you bass heads....
ED A7s-650
SVS PB12-Ultra/2
SVS PB12-Plus/2

18x18 sealed room.................

Live in the country, so no neighbors to worry about!
post #37 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by swgiust View Post

Got it rented for tonight. Can't wait. These are the movies I built my theater for.

120" projection screen with JVC projector.

And for you bass heads....
ED A7s-650
SVS PB12-Ultra/2
SVS PB12-Plus/2

18x18 sealed room.................

Live in the country, so no neighbors to worry about!

That system sounds badass
post #38 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by swgiust View Post

Got it rented for tonight. Can't wait. These are the movies I built my theater for.

120" projection screen with JVC projector.

And for you bass heads....
ED A7s-650
SVS PB12-Ultra/2
SVS PB12-Plus/2

18x18 sealed room.................

Live in the country, so no neighbors to worry about!

You must have a high caliber mount for that projector.
post #39 of 194
Thanks Kesando,

But for reference, NEVER EVER build a theater in a square room.

As much as I love the output of these subs, the truth is I bought them to get my bass levels flat. Had the Ultra/2 first, bass was awesome. In exactly one spot! Bought the Plus/2 (Ultras were gone ) Helped alot, but still had some major peaks and valleys. Finally my wife suprised me with the A7s-650 kit. (I believe that makes her the sexiest woman on AVS forum!)

I am running them all through an SMS-1, but have discovered that moving them around is just as effective as EQ. Have the ED under my center, exactly half way across the room, the Plus at 1/3 down the side wall and the Ultra more or less in the corner. I have some bass traps in the corners as well. I have gotten the response pretty smooth.

It's a constant project, but that's what I enjoy.
post #40 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You are in the wrong area to not like bass all the time.

That's a bit harsh. People have different taste. I tend to agree with the OP and I also don't like constant bass. It's just not natural. (and I hate those continous thumps in a car. They call it boom box and obviously the owner loves it).

I would much prefer more "musical" and articulate bass. Even in a movie, occasional grand bass is the most impressive. A bit off topic, I may be old school, but I quite like the mixing style of Star Dust. There're not much bass in it overall, but when it comes, it is grand and immersive. I call it symphony style.
post #41 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotjt133 View Post


That's a bit harsh. People have different taste. I tend to agree with the OP and I also don't like constant bass. It's just not natural. (and I hate those continous thumps in a car. They call it boom box and obviously the owner loves it).

I would much prefer more "musical" and articulate bass. Even in a movie, occasional grand bass is the most impressive. A bit off topic, I may be old school, but I quite like the mixing style of Star Dust. There're not much bass in it overall, but when it comes, it is grand and immersive. I call it symphony style.

Meaning that most here like bass all the time. X-men is about mutants with powers and the bass gives you that feel of power. It would be silly if Magneto reach his hands out and all we saw was things moving without the bass. The bass adds to the experience as to how powerful he is. My subs are musical and not boomy.
post #42 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADDUpstate View Post

A lot of good commentary here... I was away for the weekend, so just catching up.

I have also figured out a couple of things...

I re-eq'd my subs a while back, which raised the trim on my AVR and decreased the subs' gain. However, I didn't readjust and reduce my transducer amp to reflect this. That was probably the main contributor to my overly heavy bass effect. I have now readjusted everything, and will rewatch the movie.

In general, it just seemed like every scene had deep bass in it, which just wore me out. I like the LFE to be used more sparingly I guess, so it takes you by surprise in a big scene. Like Master and Commander or The Patriot. I like the deep stuff, just not in every scene. It just seemed like it was overused IMO.

Funny, you described everything that Audyssey does for my subs in my room. Bass all the time. Sounds cool at first but can be overwheliming, not to mention be too much for some subs.
post #43 of 194
Watched the movie last night. Overall the sound/bass quality was excellent.

Not quite as action packed as I expected, but a fun ride.
post #44 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by e2g_ View Post

saw this in the movie theatre and one of things i kept commenting to my girlfriend was, that movie is going to sound amazing with my subwoofer.

If you were still a couple when the movie ended, she's a keeper!
post #45 of 194
I think in order to enjoy this movie, you need to have a sealed sub that can hit tight and extremely accurate. Your normal non musical ported sub that usually sounds great for movies is going to sound used and abused during this movie. Its just the nature of the beast.
post #46 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post

I think in order to enjoy this movie, you need to have a sealed sub that can hit tight and extremely accurate. Your normal non musical ported sub that usually sounds great for movies is going to sound used and abused during this movie. Its just the nature of the beast.

Rrrrrright.
post #47 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post

I think in order to enjoy this movie, you need to have a sealed sub that can hit tight and extremely accurate. Your normal non musical ported sub that usually sounds great for movies is going to sound used and abused during this movie. Its just the nature of the beast.

If you say so.
post #48 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post

I think in order to enjoy this movie, you need to have a sealed sub that can hit tight and extremely accurate. Your normal non musical ported sub that usually sounds great for movies is going to sound used and abused during this movie. Its just the nature of the beast.

Seriously?
post #49 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post

I think in order to enjoy this movie, you need to have a sealed sub that can hit tight and extremely accurate. Your normal non musical ported sub that usually sounds great for movies is going to sound used and abused during this movie. Its just the nature of the beast.

Wow...
post #50 of 194
Its a known fact sealed subs are more accurate and more musical than their ported counterparts. Its nothing new. The whole purpose of sealed subs is to deliver tight accurate bass. If this wasnt the case then why bother with them? You will rarely see anyone who wants their music to sound tight and accurate use a ported sub.

I didn't make the rules. You have to decide which trade off your willing to make. In the $1000 range, they is no such thing as a perfect sub.
post #51 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post

I think in order to enjoy this movie, you need to have a sealed sub that can hit tight and extremely accurate. Your normal non musical ported sub that usually sounds great for movies is going to sound used and abused during this movie. Its just the nature of the beast.

Hmm--I'm sure you will find a lot of SVS ported sub owners who would disagree. My PC-13 Ultra was far from stressed and handled this movie with ease. I think your biggest mistake was to lump all ported subs together--they are not all created equal.

An exceptional LFE track I might add.
post #52 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post

Its a known fact sealed subs are more accurate and more musical than their ported counterparts. Its nothing new. The whole purpose of sealed subs is to deliver tight accurate bass. If this wasnt the case then why bother with them? You will rarely see anyone who wants their music to sound tight and accurate use a ported sub.

I didn't make the rules. You have to decide which trade off your willing to make. In the $1000 range, they is no such thing as a perfect sub.

Not only didn't you you make the rules, but obviously you don't even know the rules.

Do you ever listen to live music? What kind of subs do you see near the front of the stage? I'll give you a hint: they're ported or otherwise horn loaded.
post #53 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiritfox View Post


Hmm--I'm sure you will find a lot of SVS ported sub owners who would disagree. My PC-13 Ultra was far from stressed and handled this movie with ease. I think your biggest mistake was to lump all ported subs together--they are not all created equal.

An exceptional LFE track I might add.

No, your completely right. Not all subs are created equal. That's why some cost $500 and others cost $2000.

I pulled this from Audioholics and this is exactly why some subs had trouble keeping up with the movie. Sorry folks but you $500 sub cant do everything perfect. I sure as hell know mine doesn't.

Transient Response Transient response refers to the ability of the subwoofer system to reproduce quick changes (transients) in the program material accurately. This is often interpreted as "tightness" or "looseness" which is maybe a dangerous terminology since many people are more influenced by tonal characteristics when asked to qualify the "tightness" of the bass. Transient response is actually a function of accuracy in relation to time rather than frequency. In music, sounds like drum strikes and quick bass guitar pulses are good tests of a subwoofer system's transient performance. A system with good transient response will reproduce these sounds with clear, "tight" definition. A system with poor transient response tends to blur these sounds over time, due to the speaker's inability to stop and start quickly enough to react to the signal accurately.

It is generally accepted that an optimized sealed enclosure exhibits the best transient response characteristics. The control provided by the air-spring in a good sealed system contribute to generally outstanding transient behavior
post #54 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post

Its a known fact sealed subs are more accurate and more musical than their ported counterparts. Its nothing new.

A known fact huh? And you've done a level matched, frequency response matched, placement optimized comparision to prove this? Because Dr. Floyd Toole has, and he found no audible differences between the two properly set up. And I have a feeling Dr. Floyd Toole knows a lot more about sound quality than yourself.

Quote:


The whole purpose of sealed subs is to deliver tight accurate bass.

And to reradiate excess rear energy back through the cone

Quote:


If this wasnt the case then why bother with them?

How about the fact that they're smaller - about half to quarter the internal volume of a well designed helmholtz or transmission line?

Quote:


You will rarely see anyone who wants their music to sound tight and accurate use a ported sub.

Factoring in that high output subs can have some port compression and a passive radiator (which 99.99999% serves exactly the same function as a port), here's some examples:

Jim Salk's Songsub is a helmholtz radiator: http://www.salksound.com/songsub%20o...%20pricing.htm

Here's a helmholtz sub reviewed by stereophile

http://www.stereophile.com/content/r...bwoofer-page-3

Here's a transmission line (not quite a helmholtz resonance, but it does have tuned openings through which bass radiates) main speaker, used full range to monitor, in some of the top mastering studios in the world, including the ever-discriminating BBC:

http://www.pmc-speakers.com/keyclien...ient&key_id=21

Ports have their limitations, but subjective "sound quality" isn't one of them when well designed and well integrated into a system.

Quote:


I didn't make the rules.

You just failed to comprehend what they entail...

Quote:


You have to decide which trade off your willing to make. In the $1000 range, they is no such thing as a perfect sub.

And you have to learn what the actual tradeoffs are, before running your mouth.

Quote:


I pulled this from Audioholics and this is exactly why some subs had trouble keeping up with the movie. Sorry folks but you $500 sub cant do everything perfect.

Where did anyone say anything about a $500 sub. I thought you were comparing sealed vs ported. A sealed $500 sub will likely just electronically remove 60% of the bass information in this movie...

Quote:


It is generally accepted that an optimized sealed enclosure exhibits the best transient response characteristics.

Generally accepted =/= correct. First of all you have to factor in that any advantage your sub might have in a vacuum, is totally done away with once placed into a real room with real reflections and standing waves. This includes transient response. HOw many times do you think the sound wave bounces back and forth in your room before your ear finally processes it?

Second, there's the crossover. Your crossover introduces more group delay (transient response) than a vent does. And the vent introduces it around 20hz, where wavelengths are very long and our sensitivity is very low. The crossover does this all the way up at 80hz, where more musical content exists, the wavelengths are smaller, and our ear's sensitivity is higher.

Does your system have a crossover?

Third, there's a matter of perception. How much group delay (transient response) can YOU perceive? It's a lot lower than you'd imagine, compared to the perception of flat frequency response, which is magnitudes higher on the pecking chart.

fourth there's a matter of thermal compression. Sealed subs require significantly more power, and EQ to have flat response (assuming you want flat response, not punchy sealed sub response). That creates heat, which creates nonlinearities in drivfer performance, which reduces sound quality.

fifth there's the problem that spring loading creates - reradiated bass. UNless you've got advanced servo mechanism at play, most commercial sealed subs have too high QTC and too much reradiation of sound energy, which is not good for transient response. The spring effect is NOT a desirable effect, contrary to popular belief, it actually harms sound quality. The only advantage of the air spring is that it prevents max excursion and protects drivers. There's a reason why many people will tell you that infinite baffles have the best bass they've heard.

sixth there's a matter of excursion. a sealed sub needs around three times the excursion to reproduce deep bass that a vented sub does. Unless you've got some ridiculously linear high excursion high surface area driver, or you're using like eight fifteens, a sealed sub will simply have too much cone motion to have truly accurate sound quality. At the $500 price class, few drivers employ correctly placed shorting rings and motor structures to handle the excursion requirements of sealed, and instead those subs just roll off everything below 35hz electronically. It's measurable:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...2-measurements

It was once generally accepted that the world was flat, too. And that the sun revolved around the earth.

Quote:


The control provided by the air-spring in a good sealed system contribute to generally outstanding transient behavior

The control of the airspring, or do you mean the distortion created from underdamping leading to a "punchy" sound coloration?
post #55 of 194
And transient response isn't a trade-off? Guess the guys over at Audioholics lied about that?
post #56 of 194
Decent movie.

Lots of deep rumble in this one. I used the term rumble because thats the effect I noticed the most, not the LFE type I prefer......

The intense rumble scenes had me reaching for the remote a couple times and looking at my gear for clip lights. No red lights but, for lack of better word, the "distorted" rumble bass mix was less than satisfying for me.
post #57 of 194
I enjoyed the movie myself and only have powered towers with subs, the entire track was nice though I listed louder than normal. I loved the magneto scenes! Soon to be buying myself a nice subwoofer so I will be returning to watch this whenever that gets worked out.
post #58 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post

And transient response isn't a trade-off? Guess the guys over at Audioholics lied about that?

I already addressed this in the second half of my abovepost.

The guys over at audioholics? Have you ever actually looked at what their reference systems are?

http://www.audioholics.com/buying-gu...erence-systems

Gene's bi-amped mains for example, double as two of his four subwoofers, and those mains just happen to be ported!
post #59 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post

I think in order to enjoy this movie, you need to have a sealed sub that can hit tight and extremely accurate. Your normal non musical ported sub that usually sounds great for movies is going to sound used and abused during this movie. Its just the nature of the beast.

Lukily most ID brand ported subs from HSU, SVS, Rythmik etc. are not normal non musical subs. While tight and accurate bass is important, what about that deep infrasonic bass at or below 20hz in todays movies. No $500-600 sealed sub will be able to touch that with any authorty or comparable output.
post #60 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by kesando View Post


Lukily most ID brand ported subs from HSU, SVS, Rythmik etc. are not normal non musical subs. While tight and accurate bass is important, what about that deep infrasonic bass at or below 20hz in todays movies. No $500-600 sealed sub will be able to touch that with any authorty or comparable output.

Im going to go out on a limb here and say that a $500-$600 HSU sub isn't getting down below 20Hz in 95% of our rooms. I know what the spec sheet says but most of us dont have the advantage of having dedicated home theater that is acoustically matched and everything else.

I found a sealed sub around $600 that can typically hit some pretty low levels in the average room. 600 watts RMS is pretty damn nice for a $600 sub. I guess we will have to wait for reviews.
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