Originally Posted by tony123
Hope I did misunderstand him. Either way, I didn't take it personal. I want JPA to get the best information he can to make an informed decision, and this is some great conversation for that.
Brandon, can you elaborate on the pros and cons of each? I know you have on other threads, but a quick synopsis here might be helpful. You're one of very few that have had both in the same room.
I'm on your way to the manufacturer. I wonder if you placed your order with the caveat that you have an acceptable demo at my place. You come to pick up your subs, save yourself several hundred in shipping costs, and swing by to hear mine. You don't like, you cancel order and go home. Danley are good people. I'm sure they'd agree to that. Eliminates risk on your part.
This likely isn't the thread to discuss your mains, but if you end up with any sub option of this league of subs, and you have a large room, you will definetely be looking for capable mains to do the job. Since you commented on coming from a htib, it's something to start kicking around.
Hearing them both before I can easily say they are two of the best subs I have heard and I have heard/built a lot. So you won't go wrong with either choice.
For me the the lms is all around the best driver I have experienced, and it has the specs to back it up. Massive excursion, enough motor to fit in small enclosures, highly accurate, and good looking to boot. It has that clean sound that seems hard to impossible to achieve. Extremely low distortion makes this thing sound good.
The plus points I have for the lms is its clean sound, decent output in comparison to subs in general, love the look of the driver, it can be fit in a relatively small enclosure.
The downsides to this subwoofer aren't many but are worth mentioning. The first and probably biggest for me is the amp issue. Yes you could run one of these from an ep2500/ep4000 but really who would? Its like buying a sports car and putting 87 octane gasoline in it. You need a bigger and higher quality amp for this driver. Price is another. While all in all (depending on finishes and amps for each) they will be close to the same price, the driver is expensive. I'm cheap in the first place so spending that much on a driver just erks me a bit. If you have the money that part shouldn't be a consideration. Last point is one that isn't something that should weigh heavily on your decision but should at least be in your head. The company that makes this driver has been a little more than unstable in the past few years. Out of business for a while then back in. So company stability is a point.
Originally Posted by penngray
You know your opinion of "no comparison" is highly subjective.
Really all everyone needs to do is use Ricci bench test measurements.
1. The DTS-10 is not an accurate design outside of 14 - 40Hz, it has very high distortion levels outside of its design range because of its design. Inside the range its a thing of beauty
2. The DTS-10 requires a lot less power to incredible output.
3. The DTS-10 is a MONSTER BOX!! If someone can not merge it into the room properly the room will look like some college students room or a bachelar pad with "equipment" sticking out like a sore thumb. Its just a choice but people need to make the decision if they want a beautiful < 4cuft sealed box or a monster PA box in their room. People have to match the decor and lifestyle so again all choice. 4 cuft is just 1000 times easier to handle.
4. Outside of a custom HT room where I can hide boxes, If Im picking a single box, Im going to pick the LMS5400 design over the DTS-10 easily because its superior in so many ways.
5. Obviously if budget is a concern then even one LMS5400 design is not the best $$$/performance option.
The measurements tell us a lot about a design (pretty much all we ever need to make a scientific/valid conclusion) and anyone thinking uncontrolled real world listening tells us something might as well also believe cables make a difference and people should spend high $$ on amps because they make more difference then speakers and rooms. The real point here is that if someone tells a BOSE owner that they do not know what they are talking about how can they go out and post highly subjective opinion about any product when the measurements do not agree with them??
You either want accuracy or you do not. Even Danley recommends "OTHER" choices outside of the 2-octave bandwidth (this is inherent to horn designs). The proof is in the science/measurements and they tell us what is good and bad about the DTS10, Giddy owners that Love peaky midbass response not withstanding. If the only argument is that someone posts "I love it" then we might as throw out science and go accept even audiophile snake oil products too
The conclusion is really if the LMS5400 max SPL is not being hit then it in a sealed 4cuft is superior to the DTS-10 is so many scientific ways that its hard to debate them on a DIY forum where science is always first. If you need more output find a better solution for your $$$
While I won't argue the science involved, I will add a caveat to your post (good post too btw). The measurements ricci made were "out of the box" measurements. Not finely tuned like the danley should be. Not saying eq'd to the room, but eq'd for a more flat response at the mouth. Commercial subwoofers add eq and other filters. The same argument can be made for the lms so that's a toss up. But in actual real world usage I can't imagine someone buying a dts-10 and not also spending the $50 or so for a used bfd on craigslist whereas I can easily see someone building a box for the lms and not adding eq. I believe room interaction with sub frequencies merit an eq for any subwoofer, its just that most won't buy them.
I'll bring up a point we have discussed in the past regarding speakers. I've recently changed my surround speakers from a pair of athena bookshelf speakers to a set of klipsch pro audio surround that were used in an imax theater. One of my points that you agreed on was that like my situation, dynamics or sometimes other apects of a speaker are sometimes preferred over the most accurate. People for years have gone against science when it comes to speakers. There has been ongoing arguments for years on whether a speaker sounds good if it measures ruler flat. Most people don't like the sound of a speaker that's completely flat. Why is it that with speakers "sounds good" is in higher regard then accurate? And why is it that the bottom 80-100 hz is different? Below the lowpass crossover everything has to be accurate or it must not sound good. This is hardly an argument I want to try to validate so to sum up this portion all I can say is listen to it. Yes the lms sounds better, but the difference isn't as great as you would imagine.
The pros of the dts-10, to me at least, outweigh the lms. Output is obvious. The dts-10 is a monster. Sensitivity is another. You don't have to have a lot of power to drive it, but it will accept a good amount also. Dynamics are huge. You can push this sub and it just keeps going. And it does sound good. Its not like the dts-10 sounds like crap. It doesn't. It sounds really good. On top of this it is pretty easy to assemble. Last pro, and this is one for me and possibly some others, its huge! That look of amazement people give when they first see it in my room is almost as good as when they hear it the first time. Some people don't like huge subs, but for me I like them.
The cons are pretty obvious. Number one is its size. As said before they are huge. They take up a good bit of floor space. Its also heavy so its not easy to move around. It takes a bit of tweaking to get sounding its best. It also needs good placement to reach its full potential. Its not the most accurat but can be eq'd to sound good. Integration with other non horn subs is also a bit tricky.
Its hard to determine which is the best fit for someone, but ultimately with a room the size of the OP's you need output. The dts-10 has it. If I didn't own a subwoofer but experienced both I would still choose the dts-10. It would take more lms subs to play the same levels a single dts-10 which ends up being more money and potentially more cash spent on upgrading you home electrical system.
Let me also add that th 50 hz and up point isn't as valid as it seems. I am limited to 100 hz due to my ancient receiver. It plays fine to 100 hz. When I have had other receivers I prefered 60-80 hz depending on sub placement and other speakers I had at the time, but at the same time this is with any sub I have had in the room, not just the dts-10.