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7.1 Speakers for $4,000 - 5,000?

post #1 of 76
9/12/11 at 11:38am
Thread Starter 
Hi,

I am getting ready to buy the speakers for my home theater and was hoping to get some advice as to a short list of ones to consider.

Some background:

- The $4,000 price point would be preferable but I might be able to persuade the wife to go for a few extra bucks if we get to a position where "if only you could spend $5k; you would get speakers that sound twice as good".

- The receivers have been short listed to the Marantz SR6006 and Denon AVR-3312CI, but am open to other suggestions around the $1k - $1,200 mark.

- The room is about 23' x 17' x 9' (it is 23' from back wall to screen). It is very well insulated and has very few reflective surfaces other that a wood floor which will have large carpets on it and a couple of doors. Therefore, despite the quietness, it may need a little extra "oomph" to not have the sound get lost in the space.

- I am placing the speakers behind the screen in front, and behind fabric panels on the rear and side walls. I am looking at the SMX CineWeave screen.

- That also means that since you won't see them, I am not that fussed on type of finish.

- I want good movie sound performance, but also want the speakers to do very well for music purposes.

- I was looking at the B&W CM8 Home Theatre package, but at around $8k it is simply just too much for the budget.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions!
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2 of 76
9/12/11 at 11:40am
Look at some Klipsch KL-650s across the front. They make a handful of other speakers you can use for surrounds (more 650s, the slightly smaller 525, and a couple of in-wall and dipole speakers). These are Klipsch's THX Ultra 2 line and, from what I understand, they're pretty amazing in a dedicated theater.

The MSRP is high, but I keep reading you can find them for almost half that. You could also use the 525s everywhere.

Or you can put 3 RB-81s behind the screen. I mention those because the floorstanding units are rear-ported.

You also have a pretty large space, so you're going to want at least two quality subs. I'd consider a pair of VTF-3s.
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post #3 of 76
9/12/11 at 11:53am
Thread Starter 
Thanks Jonny, I appreciate the reply!

But at about $1,500 each, the 2 main front ones would be $3,000, leaving me with only $1,000 of my $4k budget to buy the center, the sub, and 4 surrounds.

I did see that Klipsch makes a RF-82 II Home Theater System (5.1 for about $3,500, and a second pair of the surrounds in that package would run about $850 so the whole deal would be about $4,300 which is squarely at the price point I was hoping to be.

Does anyone have any experience with that setup?
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post #4 of 76
9/12/11 at 12:00pm
Sorry, I edited the post. I keep reading that you can find the 650s for way below MSRP, like half of that. Go read the rest I added to the post as well.

As for the RF-82, it's definitely a good system, but there are a few things I don't like about it for your setup. First, the floorstanders are rear-ported, and that might be a pain when your speakers will be behind a screen and probably very near the back wall. Also, why deal with a horizontal MTM center when it's hidden behind the screen? Horizontal MTM centers are compromises made for aesthetics. Don't bother using one if you don't have to.

The "ideal" is three identical speakers across the front. That's why I like the idea of three RB-82s or KL-525s/650s. Will be cheaper, and even the RB-82s won't leave you wanting for volume. Also, with no bundled sub it leaves you free to get a superior sub or subs.
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post #5 of 76
9/12/11 at 12:04pm
Sample setup:

3x RB-81: $1200
2x RB-61: $529
2x RS-42: $540
2x HSU VTF-3 Mk4: $1400

Total $3,699
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post #6 of 76
9/12/11 at 12:30pm
KEF Q900 x 2 @ $570ea (total $1140):
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...er-Each/1.html

KEF Q600c x 1 @ $400ea:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...Speaker/1.html

KEF Q300 x 4 @ $400/pr (total $800):
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...rs-pair/1.html

Rythmik FV15 x 2 @ $2128 total shipped:
http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/pro...subs/fv15.html

Total = $4,468

2 Reviews of the KEF Q900:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-q900-loudspeaker

http://www.hometheater.com/content/k...speaker-system

Denon AVR-3312CI for $1099 (BRAND NEW):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&condition=new

Denon AVR-3312CI for $992 (LIKE-NEW FULL WARRANTY AMAZON DIRECT):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used

Denon AVR-3311CI for $681 (LIKE-NEW FULL WARRANTY AMAZON DIRECT):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used
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post #7 of 76
9/12/11 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

KEF Q900 x 2 @ $570ea (total $1140):
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...er-Each/1.html

KEF Q600c x 1 @ $400ea:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...Speaker/1.html

KEF Q300 x 4 @ $400/pr (total $800):
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...rs-pair/1.html

Rythmik FV15 x 2 @ $2128 total shipped:
http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/pro...subs/fv15.html

Total = $4,468

2 Reviews of the KEF Q900:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-q900-loudspeaker

http://www.hometheater.com/content/k...speaker-system

Denon AVR-3312CI for $1099 (BRAND NEW):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&condition=new

Denon AVR-3312CI for $992 (LIKE-NEW FULL WARRANTY AMAZON DIRECT):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used

Denon AVR-3311CI for $681 (LIKE-NEW FULL WARRANTY AMAZON DIRECT):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...condition=used



Bookshelf are sold out.

Djoel
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post #8 of 76
9/12/11 at 1:05pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the updated info Jonny. I hadn't considered 3 identical fronts as I guess I was sort of under the impression that the dedicated center channel sort of speaker would be better for some reason (i.e.- one of the reasons I heard was that that is where dialogue is "located" so the dedicated centers are designed to do that well). I will read up on it.

And also thanks for the KEF recommendation, AcuDefTechGuy. Lots to read there too. I was familiar with the name but hadn't done any research and will do so now.
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post #9 of 76
9/12/11 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djoel View Post

Bookshelf are sold out.

Djoel

Or he may want a different color cabinet.

Or KEF Q100:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...rs-pair/1.html
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post #10 of 76
9/12/11 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesBFree View Post

Thanks for the updated info Jonny. I hadn't considered 3 identical fronts as I guess I was sort of under the impression that the dedicated center channel sort of speaker would be better for some reason (i.e.- one of the reasons I heard was that that is where dialogue is "located" so the dedicated centers are designed to do that well). I will read up on it.

And also thanks for the KEF recommendation, AcuDefTechGuy. Lots to read there too. I was familiar with the name but hadn't done any research and will do so now.

IMO, the IDEAL system is having 5 identical speakers - perfect match and all.

3 identical fronts would be great.
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post #11 of 76
9/12/11 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

IMO, the IDEAL system is having 5 identical speakers - perfect match and all.

3 identical fronts would be great.

Especially with an AT screen. Three Q900 across the front would be sweet!
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post #12 of 76
9/12/11 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

IMO, the IDEAL system is having 5 identical speakers - perfect match and all.

3 identical fronts would be great.

Yup looks that wasy

A bit OT

Acu did you get rid of the Revel Salon2?


Thanks


Dan
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post #13 of 76
9/12/11 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesBFree View Post

Hi,

I am getting ready to buy the speakers for my home theater and was hoping to get some advice as to a short list of ones to consider.

Some background:

- The $4,000 price point would be preferable but I might be able to persuade the wife to go for a few extra bucks if we get to a position where "if only you could spend $5k; you would get speakers that sound twice as good".

- The receivers have been short listed to the Marantz SR6006 and Denon AVR-3312CI, but am open to other suggestions around the $1k - $1,200 mark.

- The room is about 23' x 17' x 9' (it is 23' from back wall to screen). It is very well insulated and has very few reflective surfaces other that a wood floor which will have large carpets on it and a couple of doors. Therefore, despite the quietness, it may need a little extra "oomph" to not have the sound get lost in the space.

- I am placing the speakers behind the screen in front, and behind fabric panels on the rear and side walls. I am looking at the SMX CineWeave screen.

- That also means that since you won't see them, I am not that fussed on type of finish.

- I want good movie sound performance, but also want the speakers to do very well for music purposes.

- I was looking at the B&W CM8 Home Theatre package, but at around $8k it is simply just too much for the budget.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions!

The Klipsch suggestion is a good one since you should be looking at high efficiency designs for reference HT, especially if using an AVR for amplification. For your budget, choices for speakers that will fill your room with reference level sound is limited. My suggestion would be to look at a CHT 5.2 package and the eD Cinema Series.

5 SHO-10's and the 18.2 dual subs by CHT or 3 eD[c]12's(front stage) and 2 eD[c]6's(sides) and dual eD subs would provide an absolutely killer HT experience in your room. I own the CHT's and they are great speakers, the eD's are new and I haven't read any reviews but they appear to be very well designed.

There are certainly better speakers out there but IMO these represent the best performance/dollar speaker packages on the market for HT.

IMO, the KEF's are too low in efficiency for your room size.
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post #14 of 76
9/12/11 at 2:18pm
take a look at the Paradigm Monitor series.
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post #15 of 76
9/12/11 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesBFree View Post

Thanks for the updated info Jonny. I hadn't considered 3 identical fronts as I guess I was sort of under the impression that the dedicated center channel sort of speaker would be better for some reason (i.e.- one of the reasons I heard was that that is where dialogue is "located" so the dedicated centers are designed to do that well). I will read up on it.

Nope. Dedicated centres are a compromise for people who's space will not allow them to have three identical speakers across the front (which is almost everybody).
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post #16 of 76
9/12/11 at 2:27pm
Thread Starter 
The Denon AVR-3312CI and Marantz SR6006 appear to have pretty much identical specs except that the Denon puts out 125 amps per channel compared to the Marantz' 110. Is there any other difference between the two? How much of the guts are shared (since they are owned by different companies)? I read one review that said the Marantz just sounded better, but if the guts are pretty much the same I would not think so. (My personal preference was for the Marantz since I tested an earlier model out about 3 years ago and really liked it, plus I used to own a pre-amp and amp in the late '70s from them, but the technology and company have changed so much since then...)
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post #17 of 76
9/12/11 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

The Klipsch suggestion is a good one since you should be looking at high efficiency designs for reference HT, especially if using an AVR for amplification. For your budget, choices for speakers that will fill your room with reference level sound is limited. My suggestion would be to look at a CHT 5.2 package and the eD Cinema Series.

5 SHO-10's and the 18.2 dual subs by CHT or 3 eD[c]12's(front stage) and 2 eD[c]6's(sides) and dual eD subs would provide an absolutely killer HT experience in your room. I own the CHT's and they are great speakers, the eD's are new and I haven't read any reviews but they appear to be very well designed.

There are certainly better speakers out there but IMO these represent the best performance/dollar speaker packages on the market for HT.

IMO, the KEF's are too low in efficiency for your room size.

+1000!!!!!

Do this and you'll never regret it. They come in well below your budget you'll have more to spend on some other stuff.

http://www.chasehometheater.com/inde...art&Itemid=122
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post #18 of 76
9/12/11 at 3:00pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Gooddoc and flying_fool. I wasn't familiar with CHT but am reading their site now. It looks like most of their 2011 models are sold out but the 2012s will be out in a few weeks.
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post #19 of 76
9/12/11 at 4:23pm
Thread Starter 
Any experiences with the Aperion Verus Grand system? Looks like it would be around $3,700, and got good reviews.
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post #20 of 76
9/12/11 at 8:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesBFree View Post

Any experiences with the Aperion Verus Grand system? Looks like it would be around $3,700, and got good reviews.

They're going to be hidden, why spend money on such a nice finish? Also, you're using an AVR to power them and they are 92 dB efficient. That's not terrible, but consider that a 98 dB efficient speaker will require 1/4 the wattage to achieve the same volume.

So using your 100w AVR to power 98 dB speakers is equivalent to using a 400w amp to power your 92 dB efficient speakers.

Just food for thought.
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post #21 of 76
9/12/11 at 8:37pm
I forgot about that new eD Cinema line. Hearing good things about them.
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post #22 of 76
9/13/11 at 3:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

They're going to be hidden, why spend money on such a nice finish? Also, you're using an AVR to power them and they are 92 dB efficient. That's not terrible, but consider that a 98 dB efficient speaker will require 1/4 the wattage to achieve the same volume.

So using your 100w AVR to power 98 dB speakers is equivalent to using a 400w amp to power your 92 dB efficient speakers.

Just food for thought.

+1, Owning the Aperion Verus grand Towers and centers. Part of the joy of listening for my brood also involves looking at the cherry finish--which would seem to be wasted behind screens. Regarding efficiency, however, using a Marantz 6005 AVR in a larger room, I don't have any problems powering them to being subjectively too loud but admittedly mine is 5.1 system with a smaller old SVS sub
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post #23 of 76
9/13/11 at 4:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

I forgot about that new eD Cinema line. Hearing good things about them.

Nobody has actually heard them yet have they?
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post #24 of 76
9/13/11 at 4:54am
kl-650's for your front stage...from a home theater ear you would not be dissapointed.
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post #25 of 76
9/13/11 at 6:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcoyne View Post

+1, Owning the Aperion Verus grand Towers and centers. Part of the joy of listening for my brood also involves looking at the cherry finish--which would seem to be wasted behind screens. Regarding efficiency, however, using a Marantz 6005 AVR in a larger room, I don't have any problems powering them to being subjectively too loud but admittedly mine is 5.1 system with a smaller old SVS sub

I'm not surprised you don't have a problem powering them "to being subjectively too loud." In fact, if you were to use an AVR with less power or increased the room size the likelihood of the system being "subjectively too loud" increases since the cause of that subjective perception of loudness is caused by amplifier clipping/distortion and/or speaker compression/distortion.

For your speakers and AVR, at a listening distance of 9 ft., your amplifier would be clipping and/or experiencing high distortion attempting to reach reference level. In my personal listening experience I have found that distortion/compression artifacts are difficult to distinguish if there is not significant listening experience with systems that have very little of either. In other words, you don't realize it's there until it's gone. The brain simply tells you it's "too loud", but not WHY.

Comparing a system relatively free of distortion/compression with one that is not, the former will play far louder before the subjective sense of "too loud" kicks in.
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post #26 of 76
9/13/11 at 6:34am
I would highly suggest that you look into buying a set of used speakers rather than drop all that money on new ones. You could end up with a pretty killer home theater if you buy used. Much better than a klipsch Rf-82ii or Rb-81ii front trio. I will never buy new speakers again as there are much much better deals on used ones.

Oh and btw- I would go with the Denon.
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post #27 of 76
9/13/11 at 7:51am
Thread Starter 
OK, so I got out and listened to the Klipsch RF-82 IIs, and found them to be a bit... harsh. Is that something I would likely find in the KL-650s too, i.e.- if my ears don't like the one Klipsch speaker, that will likely be how they all sound to me?

Which Paradigm Monitor speakers would be recommended? I saw the Monitor 9s and 11s look like they would be sort of equivalent to others I am considering, but couldn't find prices.

I will do some research on the eD speakers too.

With respect to the Aperions, they are rated 6 ohm impedence, which may help offset the 92 dB sensitivity (compared to others at 8 ohms)?

And thanks to Marty on the used idea - I have been checking out Audiogon, eBay, etc. as well.
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post #28 of 76
9/13/11 at 8:15am
Miles,

Using an AT screen is ideal, the other thing that is ideal for matching the front 3 speakers is using 3 identical speakers. Center speakers are a compromise due to typical placement with TVs, with an AT screen a different center should not even be considered!

Surrounds are a different issue. Ideally, 7 identical speakers would be best but not always practical for the application. The problem with having the surrounds being identical is placement. If you have seating that is close to these speakers a monopole is probably not a good solution and I would look at dipole/bipole solution. Having a speaker "in your ear" does not make a good presentation for listeners that are too close to the surround speakers. I'd say they should be at least 6' feet away for monopoles but other HT designers would suggest even further as a minimum.

Subs- Budget at least 2!

Room treatments - I'm not sure if this was factored in your budget but it should be! The room plays a huge role in acoustics! I believe AVS has a very reasonably priced room layout plan with Dennis Erskine's company. You can get all the equipment opinions you like but knowing what to do with it will make your system shine. This should be step one. I'd highly suggest getting it!
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post #29 of 76
9/13/11 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesBFree View Post

OK, so I got out and listened to the Klipsch RF-82 IIs, and found them to be a bit... harsh. Is that something I would likely find in the KL-650s too, i.e.- if my ears don't like the one Klipsch speaker, that will likely be how they all sound to me?

Which Paradigm Monitor speakers would be recommended? I saw the Monitor 9s and 11s look like they would be sort of equivalent to others I am considering, but couldn't find prices.

I will do some research on the eD speakers too.

With respect to the Aperions, they are rated 6 ohm impedence, which may help offset the 92 dB sensitivity (compared to others at 8 ohms)?

And thanks to Marty on the used idea - I have been checking out Audiogon, eBay, etc. as well.

A lot of people think Klipsch sounds harsh. You have to go pretty far up their line to smooth that out.

Like these: http://www.klipsch.com/thx-ultra2

But they're way out of your price range. Horns done well can sound fantastic. That why we recommended the CHT SHO-10's. You could start with two, listen to them, and then return them if you didn't like the sound. That way shipping wouldn't be so bad.

The Paradigm Studio 100's are really nice. Here's a pair for sale on Audiogon:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ull&1319746237
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post #30 of 76
9/13/11 at 8:54am
I really like my Definitive Technology setup for movies. I'v had the upgrade bug for a while, but have been unable to find anything that I like better for home theater without spending over 10 grand. With that being said, I think you should look into those. You could pick up a pair of bp2000's for around $1000, a clr2000 for around $225 and four Procinema 100's under $400. that would leave over $2300 bucks for receiver and sub. I think you would be pretty hard pressed to find anything that would beat that.
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