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Integra DHC-80.3 - Page 24

post #691 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

O wow a science paper LOL. Just proves you got nothing my man, first hand experience trumps "science papers" every time. Go post this on the DIY thread and see what you get. We only have sub designers, room experts and a ton of people that lead the field in subsonic's. Let me know how your paper you googled works out for you LOL

If you know anything on the subject you should know that these are the leading folks on the issue of subwoofer placement in the room and the use of multiple subwoofers for low frequency optimization. Their work is based on both scientific theory and considerable experimentation (actual measurements in real rooms), as everyone who knows the subject (or actually reads the paper) also knows.
post #692 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Goff View Post

If you know anything on the subject you should know that these are the leading folks on the issue of subwoofer placement in the room and the use of multiple subwoofers for low frequency optimization. Their work is based on both scientific theory and considerable experimentation (actual measurements in real rooms), as everyone who knows the subject (or actually reads the paper) also knows.

Good for them, room and SP still is the biggest factor for SQ and SPL. Not saying the paper is wrong, it was just funny that he googled it. As an owner of 10 subs in my HT and numerous setups, I can tell you without a doubt that, you can take a very capable sub, put it in the wrong spot in a room and it will sound like complete garbage at seating position no matter how you EQ it. Sure most people like to have their subs up front but for some people, it's not possible because of room config. Some are using just one small section of an entire basement (like myself) with rest of the area being open to the entire basement. It's not a rule where a sub will sound best at seating position. It's trial and error, bass crawling, waterfall charts. Movement of inches can be a significant difference in SPL at seating pos. Owners of multiple subs have been through this time and time again. You can just take 4 subs, put them in 4 corners and expect them to be perfect, it doesn't work like that I'm afraid. For best response at seating pos, you could have 2 up front, 1 on half wall and one facing backwards in the back 3/4 wall. You can't just say, this is the corner so it will be best here.
Sometimes placement is limited and you have to make do but that doesn't mean they are setup properly.
Go ahead, get a few and try it out. Nodes, nulls, peeks and dips keep some up at night, trying to get as flat a possible but in the end.
I've got mine as good as I can. I'm out of space so I make do. It's a fun hobby though.
post #693 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

As an owner of 10 subs in my HT and numerous setups, I can tell you without a doubt that, you can take a very capable sub, put it in the wrong spot in a room and it will sound like complete garbage.

However, sometimes less is more when it comes to subs.
post #694 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

However, sometimes less is more when it comes to subs.

That's very true. In my case it's all about not stressing out my equipment. More subs = better SQ at high volumes because of less distortion, plus when you really want to crank it up, you don't have to worry about hurting your equipment, which happens a lot at my place
post #695 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

It's not referred to as "steering" anymore. In the days of Dolby Pro Logic that would have been a good question. But steering went out with matrixed surrounds. All channels these days are discrete ... no pumping, amigo.

Jeff

Jeff,

Hey buddy I guess I won't get into the Pro section here.

So does that mean that all the processors basically operate the same as far as sending the information to each individual speaker?

If one is viewing a BD that has 7.1 channels encoded on it and the processor can decode that information
all the new processors are going to be equal?
(As far as sending the information to each speaker)

I may be doing a POOR job of asking the question but I think you know what I am asking.

Just wondering if there is really all that much difference really between the Integra versus say the Denon AVP-A1HDCI.

All of them in the same price range going to do basically the same thing with more or less features.

Terry
post #696 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

That's very true. In my case it's all about not stressing out my equipment. More subs = better SQ at high volumes because of less distortion, plus when you really want to crank it up, you don't have to worry about hurting your equipment, which happens a lot at my place

But using more subs creates more acoustic issues..

The general consensus is that more than 4 is not needed, and actually not helpful.

That is according to Floyd Toole.. who knows a thing or two about such things..

While you are correct that you don't want to push your equipment past it's operating parameters, IMO, throwing more speakers to do so isn't the first way of doing it right.

Just my .02
post #697 of 3703
Hi Terry,

As far as sending each channel's respective content to it, they are all the same. However, there are still audio quality differences. Based on what you've posted so far, you will likely want an Onkyo/Integra flagship pre/pro or maybe the Denon. Denon, though, is vewy, vewy .. ahem, proud of their flagship pre/pro.

Another feature/function that changes as you go up the product lines is the inboard video processing. I'd imagine the Runco has that covered though.

I apologize if my answer is short on explanation, but I am thumbing it in from my iPhone lying in bed. I'll be back at a realmkeyboard tomorrow morning if you have a followup question and no one else has answered you.

Jeff
post #698 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Hi Terry,

As far as sending each channel's respective content to it, they are all the same. However, there are still audio quality differences. Based on what you've posted so far, you will likely want an Onkyo/Integra flagship pre/pro or maybe the Denon. Denon, though, is vewy, vewy .. ahem, proud of their flagship pre/pro.

Another feature/function that changes as you go up the product lines is the inboard video processing. I'd imagine the Runco has that covered though.

I apologize if my answer is short on explanation, but I am thumbing it in from my iPhone lying in bed. I'll be back at a realmkeyboard tomorrow morning if you have a followup question and no one else has answered you.

Jeff

Jeff,

I do have a follow up question or so.

Before I go there though I have went back reading all different post from members on different processors here on AVS.
You do get around and from reading your replies it seems to me you do know what you are talking about.
(That's a compliment)

Man it is hard to get a simple straight forward reply sometimes here on AVS from members.
Even though I might butcher the terminology a bit in my questions.

I'm not referring to you in the above comment.
Thank goodness you are on this Thread and don't mind talking to us that are not as informed as yourself.

If you don't mind saying which models of the Integra and Denon you speak of that will do what I need.
More towards the Audio processing than Video.
I'm really not in the market for a Plus $4K dollar processor.

My incoming Runco VX-11d will handle all video processing.
Waiting for install date on the Runco.

I'm thinking you are referring to the Integra 80.3 that this Thread is covering as one of the units.

Your input on this is valued.

Terry
post #699 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

But using more subs creates more acoustic issues..

The general consensus is that more than 4 is not needed, and actually not helpful.

That is according to Floyd Toole.. who knows a thing or two about such things..

While you are correct that you don't want to push your equipment past it's operating parameters, IMO, throwing more speakers to do so isn't the first way of doing it right.

Just my .02

It only creates acoustic issues if they are not setup properly. I don't have 10 subs scattered around the room. I have a IB with 4 x 18's and 2 sealed 18's as well as 2 sealed 21's. I recently sond my last set of 18's to make room for my custom made 21's I'm getting. As for making them all work together thats what the DCX2496 is for, timings, phase, eq etc. These are all DIY 18 and 21' subs powered by bridged ep4000's for each driver, not some sub you buy in any store.
It for sure is not the general consensus among people that actually do it. You guys should actually try it, instead of just telling me what people in papers say. There are TONS of us that have 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 etc. adding extra drivers can make a world of difference and I'm not sure how you could think otherwise (other than improper room setup of course). Your theory would apply to all speakers then if thats the case, not just subs.
You telling me that if you have a 4000cf room and 4 x 10" subs are going to be better than 8 in that room? the extra 4 aren't going to make any difference? not helpful in filling a room that big with bass? common man, thats just silly. With proper setup, you can make anything worth while.

You guys have got to get out of your head a traditional setup. There are lots of us that have multiple's of everything. Have you ever felt 135dB's @ 20HZ? how about 145 @ 40hz? in a home? It's something man.
It's built big and bad for one reason only, for fun
post #700 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

Jeff,

I do have a follow up question or so.

Before I go there though I have went back reading all different post from members on different processors here on AVS.
You do get around and from reading your replies it seems to me you do know what you are talking about.
(That's a compliment)

Man it is hard to get a simple straight forward reply sometimes here on AVS from members.
Even though I might butcher the terminology a bit in my questions.

I'm not referring to you in the above comment.
Thank goodness you are on this Thread and don't mind talking to us that are not as informed as yourself.

If you don't mind saying which models of the Integra and Denon you speak of that will do what I need.
More towards the Audio processing than Video.
I'm really not in the market for a Plus $4K dollar processor.

My incoming Runco VX-11d will handle all video processing.
Waiting for install date on the Runco.

I'm thinking you are referring to the Integra 80.3 that this Thread is covering as one of the units.

Your input on this is valued.

Terry

The Denon, is the 4311. It's a great unit.
post #701 of 3703
I only have 6 subs! Four are MTX Loltias that you mainly feel instead of hear and one nice Pinnacle corner (back) and Pinnacle subsonic anchoring the front.
post #702 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by nohjy View Post

Uh, let's see.... there is currently a $700 difference between buying the 80.3 and getting a new Onkyo 5508. For the $700 I get 4K upscaling when 4k displays in any affordable form and sources to feed it (other than PC) are at least 2 years out. So, we have 4K upsampling when it isn't fully realized. Not, to mention, that displays and the sources themselves will offer upscaling and will do so likely better than this chip when 4K is ready for primetime. Finally 4K will almost certainly have a new HDMI revision associated with it which the 80.3 will not be able to process.

Yeah, so it would be a waste of $700...

The 700 dollar difference forgot to include the new Vida 1900 chip (HQV) for scaling. Not to mention a bonus with DTS Neo X. 4K scaling (Marvell) will be used shortly here for me so it might be worth it. Not to mention the 5508 is so last year!
post #703 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

It for sure is not the general consensus among people that actually do it. You guys should actually try it, instead of just telling me what people in papers say.

The part of your frenetic posts that amuses me the most is the part where you keep saying "just try it". Do you really think that the PhD professional acousticians mentioned so far in this discussion have not "tried it"? Do you think that people like Toole 'don't know what they are talking about' or 'haven't tried it'? Or do you think that you are perhaps better qualified than they are and know more about the subject than they do? If so, that is wonderful but it would be helpful in that case to provide some links to your own peer-reviewed research findings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post



You guys have got to get out of your head a traditional setup. There are lots of us that have multiple's of everything. Have you ever felt 135dB's @ 20HZ? how about 145 @ 40hz? in a home? It's something man.
It's built big and bad for one reason only, for fun

I'm guessing you don't know what FilmMixer's qualifications are, nor what equipment he listens to on a daily basis? To help you with this, the clue is in his user name....
post #704 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post


If you don't mind saying which models of the Integra and Denon you speak of that will do what I need.
More towards the Audio processing than Video.
I'm really not in the market for a Plus $4K dollar processor.

I'll mention the previous models as there is virtually no difference that you would experience. Onkyo 5508 and the twin sister Integra 80.2 are "last year's" models. Onkyo can be bought online while Integra is sold only through the dealer/installer channel. The new model ... and this thread .. is about the 80.3. joerod's post just before mine mention the main difference - video processing. And another post before that mentions that the Onkyo 5509 will be released here in the US. Hopefully, I won't break the rules by saying that these are approximately "$2K" units.

Quote:


My incoming Runco VX-11d will handle all video processing.

Thought so. I have some familiarity with Runco.

Jeff
post #705 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

It only creates acoustic issues if they are not setup properly. I don't have 10 subs scattered around the room. I have a IB with 4 x 18's and 2 sealed 18's as well as 2 sealed 21's. I recently sond my last set of 18's to make room for my custom made 21's I'm getting. As for making them all work together thats what the DCX2496 is for, timings, phase, eq etc. These are all DIY 18 and 21' subs powered by bridged ep4000's for each driver, not some sub you buy in any store.

It for sure is not the general consensus among people that actually do it. You guys should actually try it, instead of just telling me what people in papers say. There are TONS of us that have 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 etc. adding extra drivers can make a world of difference and I'm not sure how you could think otherwise (other than improper room setup of course).

Because I've heard what happens when you have too many drivers (even when they are not scattered..)

BTW.. we just replaced the 12 18" subs on my stage with a 4 x 18" cabinet.... guess what? It got better.. and not by a small amount. (using multiple subs can indeed smooth out the response over a wider area, but I don't think the size of most home theaters requires more than 4 to do that..)

I think the science and research is fairly clear....

Quote:
Your theory would apply to all speakers then if thats the case, not just subs.

How is that the case? As the wavelength shortens and directionality increases, there is less need for more drivers to decrease room modes, etc...

Quote:
You telling me that if you have a 4000cf room and 4 x 10" subs are going to be better than 8 in that room? the extra 4 aren't going to make any difference? not helpful in filling a room that big with bass? common man, thats just silly. With proper setup, you can make anything worth while.

No.... but it would be silly to use 10" subs for that size room, and expect to get prodigious LF output.

IMO, you'd get more output and better extension for that same cost of 2 higher quality 15" subs in most cases...

You need to put the right equipment in first, not try get something not designed for the purpose to work at it's operational limits (i.e. a 10" sub in a large listening space...)

But perhaps the biggest issue is that the only way to integrate multiple subs in said space is expensive.

My point being is that if you are using so many drivers without proper correction, or using Audyssey to correct them, you are forcing a lowest common denominator onto that part of the B-Chain, and I suspect again, that 2 or 4 decent subs properly equalized would yield a more desirable (i.e. accurate) output.

Not to mention time alignment, etc...

Quote:
You guys have got to get out of your head a traditional setup.

To what end? If you are trying to enjoy films as intended, there is no reason to go out side of studied and proven techniques.

Quote:
There are lots of us that have multiple's of everything. Have you ever felt 135dB's @ 20HZ? how about 145 @ 40hz? in a home? It's something man.
It's built big and bad for one reason only, for fun

I've hard a lot of things, and felt large rooms shake... and I've heard similar in some pretty impressive home theaters.

However, I have no interest in producing that kind of output for two reasons.

1. It has no bearing on accurate playback...

2. I value my hearing as I need it to make a living. (and, btw, continuous exposure at those SPL's is not good for the inside of your body either.)

To each their own.. but I stand by the research and my personal experience.
post #706 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

The Denon, is the 4311. It's a great unit.

Thanks for the input.
I will go check out the Denon 4311.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I'll mention the previous models as there is virtually no difference that you would experience. Onkyo 5508 and the twin sister Integra 80.2 are "last year's" models. Onkyo can be bought online while Integra is sold only through the dealer/installer channel. The new model ... and this thread .. is about the 80.3. joerod's post just before mine mention the main difference - video processing. And another post before that mentions that the Onkyo 5509 will be released here in the US. Hopefully, I won't break the rules by saying that these are approximately "$2K" units.

Thought so. I have some familiarity with Runco.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff for the information.

Appreciate it guys,
Terry
post #707 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

Thanks for the input.
I will go check out the Denon 4311.



Thanks Jeff for the information.

Appreciate it guys,
Terry

The Denon 4311 *is* a great unit. It is also a "receiver" i.e. it has amps. If you are looking for a pre/pro ...

Jeff
post #708 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

BTW.. we just replaced the 12 18" subs on my stage with a 4 x 18" cabinet.... guess what? It got better.. and not by a small amount.

The last time it was great!
post #709 of 3703
[quote=...

2. I value my hearing as I need it to make a living. (and, btw, continuous exposure at those SPL's is not good for the inside of your body either.)...

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but handy to have a home lithotripter, on occasion.

Thank you very much

Fury
post #710 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

The Denon 4311 *is* a great unit. It is also a "receiver" i.e. it has amps. If you are looking for a pre/pro ...

Jeff

I did go check it out.
In my case it is not a good fit for my needs.
(Don't need amps)

Terry
post #711 of 3703
a whole lotta ego in here. can anyone give an opinion on proper hdmi or speaker cables to use?
post #712 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

I did go check it out.
In my case it is not a good fit for my needs.
(Don't need amps)

Terry

I know you are paying for them, and they do generate some heat, but using the 4311 in preamp mode (it actually has one that turns off the amp section (still powered, but not being fed signal) is the best bang for the buck product out there....

IMO, there is not another <2k product with the AV quality and feature set, of the 4311 (it is also Audyssey pro ready, which is amazing at this price point these days...)

I currently run the 5009 (which I love), but if I had amps, I would've gone with the 4311 + Audyssey pro kit in a second. (and I used to own a 4311, so I can vouch for it's audio quality.)
post #713 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaddeussmith View Post

a whole lotta ego in here. can anyone give an opinion on proper hdmi or speaker cables to use?

I've used Blue Jeans Cable products exclusively for 5 years...

A lot of people like Monoprice also..

Both AVS sponsors.. see their links at the top of most pages here on AVS.
post #714 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I've used Blue Jeans Cable products exclusively for 5 years...

A lot of people like Monoprice also..

Both AVS sponsors.. see their links at the top of most pages here on AVS.

ya, i was just trolling to be a smartass because i have nothing of value to add to the argument - which, put into perspective, is a VERY 1st world type of argument to be having. really? who's right over the perfect number of speakers?

monoprice hdmi cables and a single cat6 cable to each of my speakers does the trick just fine to my ears and needs.
post #715 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I know you are paying for them, and they do generate some heat, but using the 4311 in preamp mode (it actually has one that turns off the amp section (still powered, but not being fed signal) is the best bang for the buck product out there....

IMO, there is not another <2k product with the AV quality and feature set, of the 4311 (it is also Audyssey pro ready, which is amazing at this price point these days...)

I currently run the 5009 (which I love), but if I had amps, I would've gone with the 4311 + Audyssey pro kit in a second. (and I used to own a 4311, so I can vouch for it's audio quality.)

Thanks for additional input and recommendation.
I'm right now into the research mode so no hurry on this end.

Thanks again,
Terry
post #716 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'm guessing you don't know what FilmMixer's qualifications are, nor what equipment he listens to on a daily basis? To help you with this, the clue is in his user name....

Hummmm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it say Picture Mixer?


dbl
post #717 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The part of your frenetic posts that amuses me the most is the part where you keep saying "just try it". Do you really think that the PhD professional acousticians mentioned so far in this discussion have not "tried it"? Do you think that people like Toole 'don't know what they are talking about' or 'haven't tried it'? Or do you think that you are perhaps better qualified than they are and know more about the subject than they do? If so, that is wonderful but it would be helpful in that case to provide some links to your own peer-reviewed research findings.



I'm guessing you don't know what FilmMixer's qualifications are, nor what equipment he listens to on a daily basis? To help you with this, the clue is in his user name....

I say "just try it" because you actually have to do it, before you can have a real opinion on weather it works or not.

I'm not saying that filmmixer isn't right that some of the time it's true but it's not an absolute that any more than 4 subs will not make a difference. A studio and a room in some guys basement are not going to be the same I'm afraid.
post #718 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Because I've heard what happens when you have too many drivers (even when they are not scattered..)

BTW.. we just replaced the 12 18" subs on my stage with a 4 x 18" cabinet.... guess what? It got better.. and not by a small amount. (using multiple subs can indeed smooth out the response over a wider area, but I don't think the size of most home theaters requires more than 4 to do that..)

I think the science and research is fairly clear....



How is that the case? As the wavelength shortens and directionality increases, there is less need for more drivers to decrease room modes, etc...



No.... but it would be silly to use 10" subs for that size room, and expect to get prodigious LF output.

IMO, you'd get more output and better extension for that same cost of 2 higher quality 15" subs in most cases...

You need to put the right equipment in first, not try get something not designed for the purpose to work at it's operational limits (i.e. a 10" sub in a large listening space...)

But perhaps the biggest issue is that the only way to integrate multiple subs in said space is expensive.

My point being is that if you are using so many drivers without proper correction, or using Audyssey to correct them, you are forcing a lowest common denominator onto that part of the B-Chain, and I suspect again, that 2 or 4 decent subs properly equalized would yield a more desirable (i.e. accurate) output.

Not to mention time alignment, etc...



To what end? If you are trying to enjoy films as intended, there is no reason to go out side of studied and proven techniques.



I've hard a lot of things, and felt large rooms shake... and I've heard similar in some pretty impressive home theaters.

However, I have no interest in producing that kind of output for two reasons.

1. It has no bearing on accurate playback...

2. I value my hearing as I need it to make a living. (and, btw, continuous exposure at those SPL's is not good for the inside of your body either.)

To each their own.. but I stand by the research and my personal experience.

You are assuming that I don't know how to properly setup up all those subs, which I do. I already stated that I use a DCX2496. You should be familiar with these units or similar units I'd imagine right? It has 8 separate channels for doing exactly what you said. Timing, eq, phase etc. I've setup that with REW and about 30 hours of tweaking.

As for the playback of movies, it's 100% preference on how someone listens to movies. I generally listen at reference at all times, it's great and my JTR's do this laughing all day long. Have you never heard a movie and though the mix sucked? whats stopping you from adding some bass or whatever you want to make it sound as you please. Who cares if the director wanted it to sound a certain way, makes no difference, all that matters is that you/I/anyone enjoys what they are watching, no matter how strange it seem to anyone else.

For the record, I don't listen to anything at 140dB's but it's the same thing as a fast car. It's there is ya need it
post #719 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

The general consensus is that more than 4 is not needed, and actually not helpful.

That is according to Floyd Toole.. who knows a thing or two about such things..

There is no such general consensus and Dr Toole et al have never made such a claim. Although N8 is wrong, so are you. Pepar got it right in his post. It is not about the number of subs, it is about location. To merely state 4 subs is sufficient is totally meaningless. If they are co-located then they are exciting the room (i.e. interacting with the room) in the same manner and they are not smoothing out the bass response. The number of subs required is dependent on the size of the room, the extension required, the output of the sub, among other things. I.e. 4 10" subs placed mid wall at each wall in a rectangular room (a caveat that must be stated with regards to location) will smooth out the bass, but regardless of the subs, in a 25x37x8 room, they are not going to produce reference level bass to 10 Hz (yes, there are movies with output at the frequency). One may need to co-locate 2 subs (with bigger drivers, proper x-max and FS, proper cabinet and a decent amp) at each location to reach the frequency extension and output required to play the movie at reference level, and to smooth out the bass in the room (and will probably need to be eq'd).

Dr. Toole et al's research is not about how many subs are needed, but about how many locations are necessary. 4 locations (corner or mid-wall) appear to be sufficient to smooth out the bass in a room with parallel walls and 90 degree corners.
post #720 of 3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

BTW.. we just replaced the 12 18" subs on my stage with a 4 x 18" cabinet.... guess what? It got better.. and not by a small amount.

I am really dissapointed FilmMixer. I don't care what your qualifications are, you can't make subjective comments like that w/o measurements..

(and, btw, continuous exposure at those SPL's is not good for the inside of your body either.)

Again, show me the clinical data to support this assertion.


To each their own.. but I stand by the research and my personal experience.

Sorry, not even you get a pass without the facts.
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