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Integra DHC-80.3 - Page 29

post #841 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Nope. That is not an exception at all. The differences among DACs certainly are real but they are small compared to the impact of good roomEQ in the typical listening/HT room.

Correct, but then even a small additional improvement is beneficial, even if Audyssey XT32 is overwhelmingly rewarding.
post #842 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

Correct, but then even a small additional improvement is beneficial, even if Audyssey XT32 is overwhelmingly rewarding.

All improvements are welcome, of course, but when one must choose among them, I go for the big ones.
post #843 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

All improvements are welcome, of course, but when one must choose among them, I go for the big ones.

Plus ^^^^ 1


Terry
post #844 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

+1 with a notable exception, the only time an in-player decoding solution is superior is if the player DACs are superior, such as the case with the AKM DACs in 6-8k Esoteric, Marantz, but also some humbler players, like my refurb Denon POA-A1HDCI. I have long used an Oppo DV-980H and believed firmly in DSD transmission to the processor, until the good people on www.sa-cd.net helped me see the light. The Oppo BD-95 uses almost identical to the Onkyo/Integra Burr Brown DACs. Bass
management in these players is exemplary as one would expect it in that price range.

The superior DACs are very unlikely to offer better sonic performance than XT32 brings. In fact, I'd go further and say it wouldn't happen.
post #845 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

Correct, but then even a small additional improvement is beneficial, even if Audyssey XT32 is overwhelmingly rewarding.

You're missing the point. If you use analogue to get the alleged benefit of the superior DACs in the player, then you bypass XT32. The point Kal and I are making is that while the DACs in the player *may* be better than the DACs in the AVP, by losing the unquestionable benefits of XT32, the sound overall will be worse.
post #846 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You're missing the point. If you use analogue to get the alleged benefit of the superior DACs in the player, then you bypass XT32. The point Kal and I are making is that while the DACs in the player *may* be better than the DACs in the AVP, by losing the unquestionable benefits of XT32, the sound overall will be worse.

OK, got it already. So no XT32 equalization on analog signals then? Doubt it though.

I got Kal's point too, i have to hear it with my own ears before i decide whether to keep or return the DVD-A1HDCI and reinstate the Oppo 980. Good thing the 80.3 has HDMI inputs
galore so A/B will be easy. Will post on impressions in a week or so.
post #847 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

OK, got it already. So no XT32 on analog signals then?

Correct. XT32, bass management etc is bypassed when you use the analogue circuits. The benefits of XT32 are so enormous that the small differences in DACs just fades into insignificance. As Kal said, if you have to choose, choose the one that makes the most difference. And it's XT32.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

So am i better off converting to PCM in the DVD-A1HDCI then sending it out?

You can bitstream the content and let the AVR/AVP decode it, or you can decode it in the player. It makes no difference where you do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

Or return the A1 and keep the old Oppo 980 and send DSD to the 80.3?

What do you say Kal?

Not Kal, but it depends on how the two compare in other ways. If you are going to use XT32 in the 80.3 - and this is one of the main reasons to have an 80.3 in the first place, then you can't use the analogue outs/ins from the player. In various other threads, people have tested endlessly which is better - analogue-analogue and no XT32 or XT32 and the answer always comes out the same.
post #848 of 4252
Hey guys,

70.3 owner here and I've noticed what I would refer to as the ominous 'random clicks'. My setup is a PS3 (Fat) going to the the 70.3 going to an Epson 5010. The last two blu-rays I've watched my wife and I have both heard clicks at random points during the movie. No audio dropout occurred during the clicks and the audio did not change formats - this was during the middle of the movie. I was running the receiver at about a volume setting of 70. I'm wondering if this was caused by heat since I noticed the unit was rather hot.

After I heard the last click I rewound the movie to slightly before the click happened and let it play to reproduce - nothing. I was not able to reproduce it and that's got me worried as far as finding the cause and getting it fixed.

I searched through this thread a little and though I'm using the 70.3 I'm thinking it shares enough in common with the 80.3 that someone here would be experiencing the same problem. My forum search-fu might not be up to par but it didn't look like anyone else is having the same issue as me.

HAS this been reported before (even with previous models)? Was there a resolution?

What do you guys think, do I have a defective unit or is this just something that happens during break-in?

Thanks for any help in advance - I'm rather concerned about this.
post #849 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyraxus View Post

What do you guys think, do I have a defective unit or is this just something that happens during break-in?

Thanks for any help in advance - I'm rather concerned about this.

It shouldn't happen. Is the click you hear in the unit itself or is it reproduced through the speakers? Does it happen on more than one source or more than one DVD or BD?
post #850 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It shouldn't happen. Is the click you hear in the unit itself or is it reproduced through the speakers? Does it happen on more than one source or more than one DVD or BD?

The click is internal to the unit itself. It sounds much like the initial click when a new audio format is selected. There is no interruption of signal to the speakers and if the receiver was in an equipment room or something I probably wouldn't even be aware of it.
post #851 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyraxus View Post

The click is internal to the unit itself. It sounds much like the initial click when a new audio format is selected. There is no interruption of signal to the speakers and if the receiver was in an equipment room or something I probably wouldn't even be aware of it.

In that case it sounds like the relays are clicking. They should only click if the data stream is interrupted, eg when changing from one audio format to another. You mentioned that the unit was quite hot - this is simply speculation on my part as I have never had the fans come on in my unit, but could it be a relay that is operating the cooling fans? You shouldn't hear the fans themselves operating but you may well hear the relay. Perhaps someone can chime in here who has direct experience of the Onkyo fans switching on and off?

Most people operate these Onkyo units with one or two 4 inch PC fans on the rear half to ensure they run cooler (I do the same). Most of the heat is generated by the HDMI board at the rear right (looking from the front).

If it isn't the heat/fans then I'm afraid it looks as if it may need service.
post #852 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

In that case it sounds like the relays are clicking. They should only click if the data stream is interrupted, eg when changing from one audio format to another. You mentioned that the unit was quite hot - this is simply speculation on my part as I have never had the fans come on in my unit, but could it be a relay that is operating the cooling fans? You shouldn't hear the fans themselves operating but you may well hear the relay. Perhaps someone can chime in here who has direct experience of the Onkyo fans switching on and off?

Most people operate these Onkyo units with one or two 4 inch PC fans on the rear half to ensure they run cooler (I do the same). Most of the heat is generated by the HDMI board at the rear right (looking from the front).

If it isn't the heat/fans then I'm afraid it looks as if it may need service.

The fan theory seems plausible. If that is truly the case it seems a little crazy that the relay would be that loud.

Has anyone else had the similar experiences with hearing the fans switch on?

Any ideas on how to best replicate the scenario and see if that is truly what is happening?
post #853 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyraxus View Post

The fan theory seems plausible. If that is truly the case it seems a little crazy that the relay would be that loud.

Agreed. It's just speculation on my part and is probably wrong. Worth checking out though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyraxus View Post

Any ideas on how to best replicate the scenario and see if that is truly what is happening?

I'd choose a movie I want to watch, or a TV programme, turn up the volume and wait for it to happen. If and when it does, check the temperature of the unit and see if it is hot. Turn off, let the unit cool and try again - this should tell you if it is heat-related as you thought it may be. If the click occurs at random, then it has to be a fault I'm afraid.
post #854 of 4252
^^^^

My 5009 produces random clicks as well... usually only one every couple of times in usage, usually within 15-20 minutes of power up...

Don't have any speculation to add... other than that "anomaly" it has been flawless.

7.1 setup.
post #855 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If you are going to use XT32 in the 80.3 - and this is one of the main reasons to have an 80.3 in the first place, then you can't use the analogue outs/ins from the player..

What seems to be getting lost in this discussion is the distinction between multichannel and stereo. The choice between applying the 80.3's room equalization and using analog output from a source only needs to be made for multichannel audio.

I am using an Oppo 83SE with my 80.3, and definitely get the best stereo performance using the dedicated stereo analog output of the player to the processor in Stereo listening mode, applying both EQ and bass management. I also very definitely get the best multichannel performance using bitstream output over HDMI, including DSD, with EQ, rather than analog or PCM from the player.

I'd encourage anyone using a player with a high-quality analog section to give a separate stereo connection a try if you play CDs much.
post #856 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicophile View Post

What seems to be getting lost in this discussion is the distinction between multichannel and stereo. The choice between applying the 80.3's room equalization and using analog output from a source only needs to be made for multichannel audio.

I am using an Oppo 83SE with my 80.3, and definitely get the best stereo performance using the dedicated stereo analog output of the player to the processor in Stereo listening mode, applying both EQ and bass management. I also very definitely get the best multichannel performance using bitstream output over HDMI, including DSD, with EQ, rather than analog or PCM from the player.

I'd encourage anyone using a player with a high-quality analog section to give a separate stereo connection a try if you play CDs much.

You will find quite a few here that consider Audyssey room correction so much a part of reproducing music accurately that they would not consider dropping it to use an analog stereo input even from something with highly regarded DAC's like the Oppo SE.

Or are you redigitizing to apply bass management and Audyssey? If so, you don't need an Oppo SE. IMO.

Jeff
post #857 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicophile View Post

What seems to be getting lost in this discussion is the distinction between multichannel and stereo. The choice between applying the 80.3's room equalization and using analog output from a source only needs to be made for multichannel audio.

I am using an Oppo 83SE with my 80.3, and definitely get the best stereo performance using the dedicated stereo analog output of the player to the processor in Stereo listening mode, applying both EQ and bass management. I also very definitely get the best multichannel performance using bitstream output over HDMI, including DSD, with EQ, rather than analog or PCM from the player.

I'd encourage anyone using a player with a high-quality analog section to give a separate stereo connection a try if you play CDs much.

You would get even better performance from your stereo listening if you used XT32 room correction. The idea that stereo doesn't need any form of electronic EQ is an old-school philosophy for the 'purist'. The room is the most significant component in any system and MultEq (especially XT32) makes a huge difference - far outweighing the benefits of any DACs in the player and their possible small superiority over those in the AVR or AVP.

When you say you use the analogue outs on the Oppo and "apply EQ and bass management", where are you doing that? it can't be in the AVR so it must be in the Oppo. The EQ and bass management capabilities of the Oppo are exceptionally crude by comparison with XT32 EQ and bass management and certainly won't be correcting for room problems in the time and frequency domain. Usually all you can do in a source unit is set the levels of the channels and the distances (delays).

I'd definitely recommend anyone who uses the stereo mode to also use it with Audyssey enagaged. This also assumes of course that the user has full range L & R speakers for use in a two channel mode. Personally, I think that has had its day too and that better results are always achieved using competent L&R speakers along with one or two competent subs. Not least because the latter arrangement allows the L&R to be placed where they work best for imaging and soundstage and the sub(s) where it/they work best for the bass - which is rarely in the same spot as the L&R speakers are standing.

I am not knocking stereo 'purists' - I am one myself and have a separate stereo system in a different room to my HT, using good 'full range' speakers and a very nice Class A amp along with a Naim CD player. But that room needs substantial treatments in order for it approach the flatness of response that I get in the HT, using XT32.
post #858 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

You will find quite a few here that consider Audyssey room correction so much a part of reproducing music accurately that they would not consider dropping it to use an analog stereo input even from something with highly regarded DAC's like the Oppo SE.

Or are you redigitizing to apply bass management and Audyssey? If so, you don't need an Oppo SE. IMO.

Jeff

Darn it Jeff - can you slow down? I just spent 10 minutes typing in a (typically lengthy) reply, saying more or less the same thing as you did, but in more words

Are you here as a refugee from the 'Official Dynamic EQ Thread"
post #859 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Darn it Jeff - can you slow down? I just spent 10 minutes typing in a (typically lengthy) reply, saying more or less the same thing as you did, but in more words

I managed to slip that reply in between margaritas.

Quote:


Are you here as a refugee from the 'Official Dynamic EQ Thread"

Struggling to follow that one, indeed. Soon I'll trade a 6-10 Mbps connection for a 6-10 Gbps one. Unfortunately, along with that comes a swap of 25 Celsius for 25 Fahrenheit ...

Jeff
post #860 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicophile View Post

What seems to be getting lost in this discussion is the distinction between multichannel and stereo. The choice between applying the 80.3's room equalization and using analog output from a source only needs to be made for multichannel audio.

I am using an Oppo 83SE with my 80.3, and definitely get the best stereo performance using the dedicated stereo analog output of the player to the processor in Stereo listening mode, applying both EQ and bass management.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You would get even better performance from your stereo listening if you used XT32 room correction. The idea that stereo doesn't need any form of electronic EQ is an old-school philosophy for the 'purist'. XT32.

You pulled the trigger too fast. Note the underlining I added above which implies that he prefers to have the analog stereo output from the player (re)digitized by the processor in order to enjoy "both EQ and bass management." Weird but possible.
post #861 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

You pulled the trigger too fast. Note the underlining I added above which implies that he prefers to have the analog stereo output from the player (re)digitized by the processor in order to enjoy "both EQ and bass management." Weird but possible.

Don't know about "implies" ... suggests maybe. But also suggested is that the OP may not be .. aware of the signal path being used.

Jeff
post #862 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Don't know about "implies" ... suggests maybe.

Accepted.

Quote:


But also suggested is that the OP may not be .. aware of the signal path being used.

Mebbe but I think we are.
post #863 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

You pulled the trigger too fast. Note the underlining I added above which implies that he prefers to have the analog stereo output from the player (re)digitized by the processor in order to enjoy "both EQ and bass management." Weird but possible.

Ah right. Never even entered my head anyone would want to do that! Seems pointless to me.
post #864 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I managed to slip that reply in between margaritas.

There isn't a smiley for green with envy, so this one will have to do:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Struggling to follow that one, indeed. Soon I'll trade a 6-10 Mbps connection for a 6-10 Gbps one. Unfortunately, along with that comes a swap of 25 Celsius for 25 Fahrenheit ...

Jeff

Brrrrrrrrr..... of course, I'm totally used to 25 Farenheit... unfortunately.
post #865 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicophile View Post

What seems to be getting lost in this discussion is the distinction between multichannel and stereo. The choice between applying the 80.3's room equalization and using analog output from a source only needs to be made for multichannel audio.

I am using an Oppo 83SE with my 80.3, and definitely get the best stereo performance using the dedicated stereo analog output of the player to the processor in Stereo listening mode, applying both EQ and bass management. I also very definitely get the best multichannel performance using bitstream output over HDMI, including DSD, with EQ, rather than analog or PCM from the player.

I'd encourage anyone using a player with a high-quality analog section to give a separate stereo connection a try if you play CDs much.

You and I need to move this Sabre/AKM DAC spiel over to sa-cd.net or these Burr-Brown/XT32 piranhas will gut us
post #866 of 4252
Having read all the threads, I'm still happy with my B&K reference 70
post #867 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Agreed. It's just speculation on my part and is probably wrong. Worth checking out though.

Funny thing - last night to get just a few more minutes of Skyrim in I was playing while standing up (because I was supposed to be leaving to get food instead ) and I heard the click while being very close to the unit. Turns out you were right - it is the fans coming on. This was the perfect scenario to hear exactly what happened and I just stumbled into it on accident. There was perfect quiet in the room at the time and I could isolate the receiver's fans easily. They weren't there, then *click*, then they were.

I'm surprised that the relay to engage them is that loud - that's a little disappointing. I guess I'm going to have to come up with some cooling solution.

On that note - is it better to blow cool air into the receiver or pull warm air away? I'm not sure what I can implement with my rack and location of the equipment. I might have to break out some of my neighbors carpentry skills. Perhaps one fan blowing across the unit and the other pulling (from side to side).

Thanks for the help!
post #868 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyraxus View Post

I heard the click while being very close to the unit. Turns out you were right - it is the fans coming on. This was the perfect scenario to hear exactly what happened and I just stumbled into it on accident. There was perfect quiet in the room at the time and I could isolate the receiver's fans easily. They weren't there, then *click*, then they were.

Good news then. It's operating the way it was intended. And some more useful information to add to the knowledge bank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyraxus View Post

I'm surprised that the relay to engage them is that loud - that's a little disappointing. I guess I'm going to have to come up with some cooling solution.

It depends on the type of relay Onkyo are using. I suspect they are using relays of fairly high quality and they are clearly the electromagentic type not the so-called solid state type. With an electromagentic relay, some form of mechanical noise is inevitable but the good news is that the relays in your Onkyo are probably of good quality design and construction.

I also suspect that FilmMixer's report of a click after 20 minutes or so of using his unit is the same thing - I know he likes to listen at loud levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyraxus View Post

On that note - is it better to blow cool air into the receiver or pull warm air away? I'm not sure what I can implement with my rack and location of the equipment. I might have to break out some of my neighbors carpentry skills. Perhaps one fan blowing across the unit and the other pulling (from side to side).

Thanks for the help!

The best results have been achieved by the many Onkyo owners who have implemented a fan cooling solution by placing two 4 inch computer fans on the top rear half of the AVR, arranged so that they are sucking air out of the Onkyo. Having them push air in is not a good idea because a) it works against the principle that hot air rises and b) it can force dust into the unit.

There are various ways of arranging that the fans turn on and off with the AVR. You can use USB 4 inch PC fans, connected to the USB port on the rear of the unit. Or you can use 12 volt fans connected to a transformer (two fans can be connected to one transformer - just make sure the transformer (wall wart type) is rated for the right current draw of the fans). The wall wart can be plugged into one of those 'smart strips' slave sockets with something that is always on when the system is on connected to the master socket (I use the screen - you can use the Onkyo itself if you wish). Make sure the smart strip is rated for the use you intend to put it to.

When you look for fans, be sure to look for fans that have a very low dB rating - you don't want to hear them when they are running. Also check that they can be operated in the horizontal position - and check that the type of bearing is suitable for that. Don't buy the cheapest fans you can find - they will be noisy and probably have a short life when operated horizontally.

I use Noctua fans which have been running on my Onkyos for years and are still going strong.

Finally, make sure that the extracted warm air has somewhere to go! You will need space above the AVR to place the fans but you will also need space for the warm air to be evacuated, or it will pool above the unit and the cooling result will not be satisfactory.

I would strongly advise that you use fans to cool your Onkyo regardless of the issue of the relay activating the internal fans. Most of the heat generated in the Onkyos comes from the HDMI board (rear right corner) and excessive heat can seriously reduce the life of this component. It is not a cheap replacement if the unit is out of warranty!

I'm glad we have identified the cause of the clicks - great stuff.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyraxus View Post

On that note - is it better to blow cool air into the receiver or pull warm air away? I'm not sure what I can implement with my rack and location of the equipment. I might have to break out some of my neighbors carpentry skills. Perhaps one fan blowing across the unit and the other pulling (from side to side).

Note that this cooling solution we are discussing here is nothing to do with the fans already inside the Onkyo and those little vents each side of the unit. Those fans and vents are to provide cooling to the output transistors. The main heat problem is not there, where there are already fans, but with the HDMI board. It is the latter that causes your unit to get red hot to the touch. By cooling the HDMI board, you will also reduce the entire internal temperature of the unit and that in itself should prevent the internal fans from switching on.

I suspect you do not have the recommended 8 inches of clearance above the AVR and 4 inches to each side, as per the manual. In those circumstances it is vital to cool the HDMI board. In almost two years or running a 5007 at very high SPLs for hours on end, I have never once known the internal fans to operate!
post #869 of 4252
Anybody here have some pictures of their fan setup? Good info. I just got the DHC-80.3 last week myself. I had an Integra DTC-9.8 before
post #870 of 4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Bechtold View Post

Anybody here have some pictures of their fan setup? Good info. I just got the DHC-80.3 last week myself. I had an Integra DTC-9.8 before

I went the cheap/easy route. This is actually a laptop cooler but has the unique characteristic of exhausting out the back. I lay it upside down on top of the 80.3 and it draws power from the usb port on the 80.3. It is also very thin, quiet and has a lifetime warranty.

It is $8

http://www.microcenter.com/single_pr...uct_id=0317773
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