Experiencing audio dropouts on Star Wars? - Page 15

I think I'm gonna exchange my set at best buy just to be safe.

When you run PCM, what does your AVR say? Your AVR should have indicator lights to tell you what it's doing. It should be coming in as multi-channel 7.1. If it's coming in as 5.1 and you have PLIIx enabled, the sides are matrixed to the back but you aren't getting the discrete back channel.

It definitely reads multi-channel 7.1 when I'm using PCM. But for some reason I do seem to be getting a matrixed mix.

However, at this point there's no need for me to be using PCM, as I seem to be getting a discrete mix with the bitstreamed 6.1 track from Star Wars.

What has me miffed is that some people, like CAVX, say they are getting constant activity from their surround backs, including the music score mixed in; and others, like myself and RhythmX, are getting very little activity back there, but it sounds more like a discrete track with sporadic and exclusive sound effects that fill in the spatial area between the side surrounds. I get this same type of channel activity with Lord of the Rings. I hear sounds in the back surrounds that I don't hear in the sides.

So, either CAVX (and possibly my PCM stream) is correct. Or what I'm experiencing with bitstream (along with RhythmX) is the proper decode of this back surround track.

This has already been addressed, but I have a related question. As noted PCM is a great compromise in some set-ups since many older players do not support internal decoding of DTS-HD MA and in some cases not DDTHD or DD+ for that matter. Also in some cases older players can't bitstream either so you are stuck with at best the core DTS or required DD. Back in the days of HD-DVD those players and combo ones like the LG and Samsung were required to support DDTHD and DD+ internal decode since it was required by the specs of HD-DVD.

Anyhow. My question is this and I should probably check the PS3 thread, but are you sure that with a PS3 fat that it really does a full decode of DTS-HD MA when set to PCM? The reason I ask is that according to the PS3 secrets page feature tables PCM results in only 5.1 audio which would lead me to believe that you are only getting core DTS 1.5Mbps 5.1 audio. This is indicated for both the fat and the slim models. Of course bitstream is only available on the slim models. I sorta remember reading that there were updates for full decode, but since I'm only a novice on the PS3 I am unsure. Of course if you are bitstreaming from a slim and have an AVR that reports the inputted channels (or PCM for that matter) you know how many channels you are getting. I just bring this up based on all the talk about missing surround back content. I don't think any of you discussing this are using a PS3, but if you are that might be an issue (even with bitstream since it might not really be the full stream). DTS core is pretty darn good sounding after all back in the day it was the best your got in the theater and many folks without golden ears and equipment can't really tell a difference.

Anyhow, any information would be appreciated. The PS3 is an option for me to replace my aging Samsing player for BD uses and I've been dubious about it's capabilities so far esp. where it comes to the audio decode and bitstreaming capability. Too bad that the ability to play older PS games and SACDs have been removed from the platform.

Im pretty sure my fat PS3 decodes lossless as of o e of the firmware updates. You can check on the PS3 as a blu ray player thread for more info.

Although im deciding on a standalone player to give my PS3 a break. Gets real hot during viewings.

From the PS3 description webpage....


So it sounds like for DTS-HD MA, it outputs the regular/lossy DTS 5.1 via PCM. Kind of a raw deal considering everything else the PS3 does.

considering how old the PS3 design is, you must remember that DTS HD Master was not fully implemented or available back then and the designers could only work with what they know... It is not a fault of the PS3.

PS3 - it does almost everything.

This is what a software update listing is saying...

Yup, that would be bitstream, but I'm still pretty sure that PCM will only output core DTS, that is the only thing that would explain 5.1 only and obviously it is capable of 7.1 and has the pins for it in HDMI if they say that DDTHD 7.1 is supported. Or at least that is what I read into all this. A few have reported back surround sounds with the PS3 and I assume they are bitstreaming and not set to PCM. Those that are getting different results are probably using PCM and some sort of pro logic to matrix the rears or have there AVR set to some funky function/feature that is bypassing the normal way that 6.1/7.1 would behave. With my Denon I can't control the surround mode if it is being fed discrete info can only be changed for 2-channel content.

Hmmm now you would think the firmware update would have specified bitstream vs PCM if it only did bitstream, right? Anyone care to chime on what bit rate is displayed for their audio on DD True HD and DTS MA when bitstreaming so we can compare to PCM? This might give a clue as long as its the same blu ray disc and scene.

Maybe I can test this once my Panasonic 210 comes in, decided my PS3 needs a break from the heavy viewing I have been doing. Wont have it hooked up though until next week-ish.

"Blu-ray Disc playback now supports DTS-HD Master Audio and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio output.*" implies that it is bitstreaming DTS-HD HR and MA. Otherwise it would have to say that it supports decoding and output to PCM. You would not "output" it if it was already decoded.

I don't think it is an implied meaning, to the general consumer they need to be plain. Output should mean in either method, hell one could still say you are outputting after decoding. The sound has to come out right? ;-) Whenever I am in the display during playback it does show the PS3 using the lossless track w my settings to PCM.

We can agree to disagree, or probably this topic should continue in the PS3 thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=931796

Go down to the audio options area.

Connected an OPPO 93 via HDMI to my system yesterday and ran SW III at reference level (system calibrated to +75dB/CH) and no issues at all.

Reduced the volume back to -16dB and loaded TRANSFORMERS DARK OF THE MOON and then the fun began with a rather loud crackle (as if I had blown the speaker) in the left screen channel. I have since powered the system down, let it cool and re-fired it up with no issue. It was interesting though how I always seem to have issue with DDTrHD, not DTS HDMA.

Strange how with Wall E there wasn't any problems with the 6.1 DTS-HD MA....and that was from 2008...but this stuff suddenly came up now with movies like Star Wars and Golden Compass. What's changed?

There have been various encoding changes to recent DDTHD releases as well. My older DDTHD titles are fine, but those released from ~a year ago to now have various audio drops and crackles like you describe if I bitstream and decode with my AVR. If I set my player to internally decode all the problems go away. I'm starting to think it is my AVR and not my player that is at fault here (the code in it is way newer than on the AVR). Obviously it is something in the encoding or encoding software that has changes. All Anchor Bay/Starz DDTHD releases like The Walking Dead and the Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood series have these issues as well as How to Train Your Dragon and a few others. I think I recall someone on the Sammy BD-UP5000 list mentioning that they had audio drops etc. with "Bark at the moon" like you did.

Looked back at the posts and apparently there is a Transformers thread where the audio issue with DotM is being discussed. I don't know the link and havn't checked it out, but I'm sure it is easy to find.

Sounds like audio issues might be a common thing if they keep messing with the encoders and don't set things back the way they used to be?

The encoding software (or version thereof) used for the respective titles. Nice catch on Wall-e that is on that the BD Database has wrong. Highdefdigest lists it as 6.1 but the database has it listed as 5.1. Perhaps there were different versions? I will have to check mine when I have a chance. I have rarely if ever had audio issues with any Disney releases but have had playability issues and haven't had any issues at all with Sony releases. Everything else has had various loading, playing, navigating or audio issues, except for most small independent studios other than Anchor Bay. Many issues with WB, Paramount, and Universal releases of various magnitude.

Interesting.

As I mentioned earlier, the most recent firmware update for my Denon AVR-2809ci took care of all the audio issues on Star Wars as far as I can tell. I feel lucky that it was just that, and not something that forced me to get a new AVR or player before I was ready to.

Hi ALL,

Anyone have an update on the DTS Bomb on Onkyo AVRs? I put in a trouble ticket but have not heard anything back from them. Has anyone gotten any feedback from them?

Thanks,
Gerry

Very possible. I bought my AVR is Jan 2009 (it was a run out 2008) with HDMI 1.3 spec. I've never updated FW on this. I've changed out my player and until my recent bad experience with HANCOCK, was running both DTS HDMA and DDTrHD without issue.

I would think that HDMI spec 1.3 is well, 1.3 and that nothing has changed but maybe since the introduction of HDMI 1.4 and 3D, that both Dolby and DTS have had to modify their codecs. Because it seems player (when set to PCM) have no issues, we can assume that the software and the players are fine, that the decoders in our AVRs are the weak link.

I really don't think it has anything to do with HDMI 1.3/1.3a or any other flavor for that matter, but issues and bugs with encoders/decoders.

Fortunately my Denon is good with DTS-MA and I have had little problems with it with my player or AVR except for some Paramount/Universal titles if you play them at 60fps. I always play at 24fps so I can avoid those issues. That I think is for sure a problem on Samsungs end and not the AVR since those drops persist even with the latest firmware (and on other AVRs that don't have the DTS-HD MA issues, or had patches for it).

I doubt the AVR-1909 will ever see another update, so if the recent DDTHD issues are it's fault then I will have to rely on the player to decode those problematic titles. Good think it can do the work, or I would be SOoL.

From the sounds of it, it seems to be a new encoding version of DTS-HD MA (and maybe others) that causes bugs in mainly on-board decoders on receivers...especially those prior to 2010-production. If hi forum doesn't suffice, there should probably be a site dedicated to just this issue, with whatever firmware updates provided by manufacturers or at least news thereof.

When I fist got the Star Wars Blu-Rays, I thought something had to be wrong with the discs, and I was going to exchange them. But I remember back in the earlier DVD days, there were certain discs that had problems for everyone in the same spots...so for the heck of it, I did a search for 'audio dropouts on Star Wars BluRays', and sure enough, I ended up at helpful places like this. It helped me get the firmware update and fix not only this but potential other ones down the road...even though the Star Wars BuRays are the first ones that I've encountered such issues with.

This is not a new problem. There are many products that do not decode various codecs as well as others. The differences are not always this great, but they have existed for years. I believe much of it is caused by the complexity of the data along with the efficiency/capability of the product doing the decode. Some older decoders would display the percent CPU being consumed so you could see this happening.

I suspect if this was displayed today you would see certain sound segments hit the limit of some products capacity to decode and do the other functions it is handling. When this happens they must do something to avoid falling behind. This something is what I believe can be heard as noise or dropouts in some products.

no word... they actually called me back and said my updated firmware broke the receiver since i got it from a non-Onkyo source...

When you talk of 'complexity' of the data, does it apply to the final delivery format and actual encoding...like trying to fit/compress more bitrate or fidelity into a limited space? I'd like to think that it's because they're trying to make the final format better and some machines need to catch up...and not because they're trying to save/skimp on encoding costs/time, etc..

I am say that decompressing the data can take more effort depending on the information contained. Various products do a this at different levels of quality. This includes receivers, preamp processors and Blu-Ray players. The Oppo BD-83 for example is pretty flawless at this.

Various products have different DSP's and software which results in varying performance.

The sound mix on A New Hope sounds horrible on my system. Yet none of the other five movies have problems and sound exactly as I'd expect them to.

Specifically, the opening theme over the crawl sounds like 200% timpani in the center for a good portion of it, and brass way off at the sides sort of as an afterthought. The strings seem better, but still not as loud as that timpani thundering away!

Then the Star Destroyer attacks the Rebel cruiser, and the sound effects are LOUD! So much so that I can barely hear any of the music, and have to turn down the volume after the opening theme to not go deaf.

Throughout the assault on the Rebel cruiser, I hear faint music in the background that I always remember being front an center. (Frankly, throughout the whole movie the music seems far too quiet.)

And in the scene with the trash compactor, especially when Luke is yelling at C3PO through the comlink, I hear distortion as if the vocal track was recorded at too high a gain and clipped.

I should note that the opening 20th Century Fox Home Video fanfare (the new one that plays before both the movie and the original fanfare) does not exhibit the same issues as the Star Wars theme played over the crawl.

I find it hard to believe that such a bad mix would slip through quality control, so I'm hoping that my disc is somehow defective...as unlikely as that seems.

I have a Panasonic DMP-BD310 and an Onkyo TX-SR805 with a Sharp Elite PRO-70X5FD. I'm using the dual HDMI out on the Blu-ray player (i.e., video to TV and audio to amplifier). I have the Blu-ray player set to PCM, although I did try it with Bitstream and it sounded the same.

And again, where/what do the variables originate from? The parts where Star Wars drops out aren't all exactly the most complex or lush parts of the mix (e.g.: crackling in the beginning during what's supposed to be silent?). If a DTS-HD track plays fine from one disc, and has problems from another on the same plater/receiver, then it must come down to variances in encoding/printing to disc or changing some specs in that encoding....combined with how decoders in various players or receivers handle it.

And in regards to the title in question here, Star Wars, there have been cases of various makes and models of receivers/players that have experienced problems (all of varying DSP/software/performance/etc.). So yeah, there have always been the chance of having issues.....but then, there are titles that use Dolby Digital/DTS/Dolby True HD/DTA-HD MA and so on that seem to work on every player and receiver without a problem. Unless the issues with encoding comes from trying to improve upon where the ones that work more universally fall short, then there shouldn't be these issues...they should be all standardized to the same specs that the ones do work well have.

But if current encoding types are somehow different than ones from just 2-3 years ago....again...why is that? What are they doing/using different...and why? Is it to improve the sound/fidelity/bitrate and push the rest of the industry to measure up with their hardware, to deal with disc capacities, or to save money? Because some encodings on some titles work on everything...so maybe everyone should look to them and jot down everything they did right. Or...is the encoding the same, and decoders in players and receivers have lowered in quality?

I'm certainly no expert on blu-ray replication but I believe as long as there aren't any visible defects to your disc I don't think exchanging disc will be much help. with vinyl records probably but optical media not the same. Using a simple toshiba bdx1100 into denon 4310ci. Dropouts in all but tpm, switch to internal decode no problems.

Just checked the Panasonic site and the new firmware (V2.4) for the BD35 is out and available for download! Got my CD burned - will install it tonight and give Episode II a whirl to make sure those video glitches are gone. Good job Panasonic - right on the schedule they gave to Chris!

Speaking of Chris, as usual, thanks for all your help!