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JVC RS45 or Panasonic 7000...I'm SO CONFUSED!

post #1 of 827
Thread Starter 
I thought I was sold on the Panny 7000, but then conversed with Mike Garrett at AVScience and he said, "Both are nice projectors, but I like the JVC RS45 better. The 7000's contrast spec is a blown out meaningless spec. Looking at native contrast the RS45 is triple the 7000." Well, now I'm going with his recommendation, but the JVC doesn't come out till the end of November. I don't know if I can wait that long. I certainly don't want to jump the gun on a purchase of this magnitude. Any thoughts from you guys?

Wolfie
post #2 of 827
Its mostly speculation right now, but my prediction is the 45 will be better for 2d and the 7000 better for 3d due to the 480hz panels.
post #3 of 827
Also, if you can't wait, maybe the Sony HW30 would be an option? With these unreleased projectors it's all guessing at this point.
post #4 of 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post

I thought I was sold on the Panny 7000, but then conversed with Mike Garrett at AVScience and he said, "Both are nice projectors, but I like the JVC RS45 better. The 7000's contrast spec is a blown out meaningless spec. Looking at native contrast the RS45 is triple the 7000." Well, now I'm going with his recommendation, but the JVC doesn't come out till the end of November. I don't know if I can wait that long. I certainly don't want to jump the gun on a purchase of this magnitude. Any thoughts from you guys?

Wolfie

Wish I had your problem! You have to put things in perspective.. you are very luck to be able to purchase such a nice piece of equipment in today's economy, enjoy that fact and be patient!
In the mean time, how about an entry level or used projector to hold you over? That one could be used as a spare or for other functions like gaming or outdoor party night once you get your RS45.
If you can, you could even have both in your HT room, the entry level for everyday viewing news and TV and the High end for more important things, saving the lamp hours of the RS45
post #5 of 827
Like Mike had stated, the RS45 in the same price range has at least 5 times the native contrast ratio of the Panny 7000. I know that the Panny 4000 had a measured NCR of 6000:1. How much better the new 7000 model may be as far as NCR level? we don't really know. But I seriously doubt it will measure above 10,000:1. So bottom line, the JVC will produce a better 2D picture with the whitest whites, blackest blacks, and everything else in between on the same frame.


BUT I will play the devil's advocate here, and will tell you that the Panasonic AE7000 will likely have the smoother picture because of their ultra fast 240/480hz FI compared to the JVC which will more likely be just a slightly improved 120HZ FI over last year's models. So if you care for a more true film like picture and amazingly inky black levels and super high native contrast levels, go with the JVC. If you want a shiny ultra smooth motion go with the Panny.

The one thing I always liked about the JVC is that what you see, as far as specs, is what you end up getting (minus the obvious unpredicted lamp defects). But JVC's marketed lumens and NCR measurements are always right on with what the reviews conclude, give or take 10%. On the other hand, professional reviewers have in the past ripped into the highly inflated and purely marketed dynamic contrast ratio and lumens levels that manufacturers such as Epson had greatly exaggerated.

There is a reason JVC is such a great seller here, not because AVS sales continously recommends them, but it's because AVS members are more satisified with JVC's quality products, and now more than ever with the much lower street pricing competing head to head with the entry level 3D projectors from the likes of Epsons and Pannys.

Yes I said Pannys.
post #6 of 827
One of my considerations was also that the JVCs have sealed optics and light path, which means no dust getting onto the panels. The Panasonic 3000 & 4000 models had documented issues with "dust blobs" showing up in the image as dust got onto the LCD panels. Cleaning it out is a royal PITA. Some guys were even trying to rig up their own HEPA filters to prevent dust getting in, with limited success.

I believe the 7000 has some changes to prevent dust, but it still is not a sealed system.

I agree with Sam that the Panny will likely be better with fast motion, like sports and gaming, but I haven't heard many complaints from JVC owners about this being a problem. I would like it better if JVC had 240 Hz panels, but oh well, maybe next year.

I decided to go with the JVC RS45, and am very excited to see it.
post #7 of 827
Forgetting lenses and power supplies and everything else that makes up a projector, LCOS technology is superior over LCD when it comes to picture quality. Take the Epson 8700 and the JVC HD-250. You are comparing one of the better LCD projectors from last season and a Lcos projector whose technology came from machines 3 season ago. In almost every aspect, the JVC won. If you compare specs between the two, the Epson was superior, but in the real world that didnt happen. Dont get me wrong, the Epson is great machine and its also cheaper than the JVC but if you compared them the Lcos picture won
post #8 of 827
Two big advantages to the Panny from years past are now gone as well being price and lens memory. The 45 is now on par with the 7000 in both these areas.
post #9 of 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post

"The 7000's contrast spec is a blown out meaningless spec. Looking at native contrast the RS45 is triple the 7000."

Could be more like 7x to 10x (3200:1 vs around 20k:1 to 30k:1).

I'm a fan of Panasonic, but it has largely been based on what you get for the price. I had both the AE4000 and RS40, but at the same price I wouldn't have purchased the AE4000 over an RS40 without 3D (to make that part equal).

In the end it is always possible that the AE7000 wins a head-to-head (other than projectorcentral.com ), but with the street price of the AE7000 looking like it will be higher than the RS45 I would have a hard time buying a Panasonic this year (I've owned most of their models over the last 5 years or so). Part of that may be that it just feels wrong to me to buy the LCD model over the JVC LCOS model at even the same price when I think there have been good picture quality reasons to pay the premium to get the LCOS model.

Of course personal preference for what matters in images comes into this. For instance, if frame interpolation is very important to a person they may lean toward the AE7000 since I think it may be better on that projector given past experience and what each claims about when that can be enabled (like for 3D modes).

The Panasonic is available sooner, but this year I think the RS45 will retain resale value better than the AE7000 will.

--Darin
post #10 of 827
The Panny still has blanking features to offset light leaks and 6 memory settings vs 3 on the JVC.

I am also torn as to which one I want.
post #11 of 827
Now only if the RS45 had a CMS.
post #12 of 827
I also forgot to add the full CMS of the Panny compared to a limited/basic CMS on the JVC. That alone could be a huge win for the Panny.
post #13 of 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroyâ„¢ View Post

I also forgot to add the full CMS of the Panny compared to a limited/basic CMS on the JVC. That alone could be a huge win for the Panny.

I haven't looked at the reviews close enough, but did Panasonic add a CMS this year that they didn't have previously? One reason I ask is that I think people could have been fooled by what they did in the past. I used the feature where you could pick a color and modify it to move the primaries, but it turned out that it mostly just moved the colors right near there and didn't actually adjust things between white and that color like a real CMS should. This was evident in looking at Lightning McQueen in Cars. Modifying this would just change some of the red on him, but not all of him. If a person only measured the primaries, secondaries and grayscale they might have thought the Panasonic feature to pick a color and adjust it worked like a real CMS.

EDIT: I see that Panasonic talks about 2 different color correction modes with the AE4000 and AE7000, one being 6 color adjustment for the primaries and secondaries, but I don't know how well that worked.

--Darin
post #14 of 827
I don't know but:

Panny = Better Motion (most likely anyhow)
RS 45 = Better Contrast

Panny = Better in 3d?
RS 45 = Better in 2d (almost certainly)

Sharper? Who knows, but my guess is the RS45 might appear slightly sharper.

Contrast = We all know the Rs-45 will win this easy.

CMS or Calibration Accuracy = Who knows...
All I really care about is the end result, which one calibrates better with the controls you are given.

Epson 5010:
I'm still waiting to hear how the Epson 5010's pixel alignment feature works for convergence, if it works the same as Sony or JVC or differently. The Mits hc7800 still has my attention as well.

Problem is the Mits and Epson don't have lens memory or motorized controls, but the Mits has that sharper DLP picture, and the Epson has the super-ridiculous 1500+ lumen mode that should be accurate enough for 3D.
post #15 of 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I don't know but:

Panny = Better Motion (most likely anyhow)
RS 45 = Better Contrast

Panny = Better in 3d?
RS 45 = Better in 2d (almost certainly)

Sharper? Who knows, but my guess is the RS45 might appear slightly sharper.

Contrast = We all know the Rs-45 will win this easy.

CMS or Calibration Accuracy = Who knows...
All I really care about is the end result, which one calibrates better with the controls you are given.

Sounds about right......

Benito
post #16 of 827
I'm debating this as well. I feel like the JVC will have a higher calibrated lumen output than the panny which will be great for 2d, but the JVC will be dimmer in 3d and maybe not as good for gaming. I'm late to the projector game but i read through the last 20 pages or so of the JVC rs40 thread and got turned off by all the bulb issues. Supposedly this has been addressed but who knows for sure. Then again, the panasonic ae4000 had dust blob problems and supposedly this has been addressed with a new "sealed" light path. It is impossible to pick a perfect projector at this price point. You simply have to choose which will be best for your situation and you will most likely be pleased with any choice. I just can't wait till i finish building my theater room and actually purchase a projector so i can stop reading this thread everyday!!
post #17 of 827
Thread Starter 
damnsam77 wrote: "Like Mike had stated, the RS45 in the same price range has at least 5 times the native contrast ratio of the Panny 7000. I know that the Panny 4000 had a measured NCR of 6000:1. How much better the new 7000 model may be as far as NCR level? we don't really know. But I seriously doubt it will measure above 10,000:1. So bottom line, the JVC will produce a better 2D picture with the whitest whites, blackest blacks, and everything else in between on the same frame."

darinp2 wrote: "Could be more like 7x to 10x (3200:1 vs around 20k:1 to 30k:1)."

reading up on the 7000, Panasonic states that it's CR is 300,000:1, but that's probably not native, correct? I'm confused by these CR specs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Killroy wrote: "I also forgot to add the full CMS of the Panny compared to a limited/basic CMS on the JVC. That alone could be a huge win for the Panny."

Ever since I've had projectors, I've always trusted my own eyes to balance the colors. It's just about me being able to get the right colors eyeballin'.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I'm going with the JVC, since y'all say the LCOS beats LCD. I remember seeing last years JVCs perform at CEDIA and they put out fabulous pictures. I just couldn't afford them then. I do mostly 2D watching anyway, so that's an edge towards the JVC. Now that the new RS45 will have a reasonable MSRP and a better minimum price, I wll go with them. I can wait until November.

Great posts, guys! Greatly appreciated.
Wolfie
post #18 of 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post

reading up on the 7000, Panasonic states that it's CR is 300,000:1, but that's probably not native, correct? I'm confused by these CR specs.


Wolfie,
That's a highly marketed Dynamic Contrast Ratio, not any different than when Epson and Samsung claim Eleventy Billion to 1 contrast ratios - they can put whatever they want and they do not have to prove that. You are lucky enough to know a bunch of good knowedgable folks at AVS to tell you the difference. No one has been able to come close to JVC's IRIS-FREE native contrast ratios, and chances are no one will in the next 5 years.

SONY at least, unlike Samsung, Panasonic, and Epson, doesn't just pull 6 and 7 digit dyanmic contast levels out of their arse. Sony's dynamic numbers are far more believable. If I were forced not to ever buy a JVC (not sure why this would ever happen to me) I would immediately go with a comparable Sony.

LCOS will beat LCD any day of the week in 2D picture quality. Of course, a 3 chip DLP will trump just about everything, at least until True 4K projectors are more affordable.

P.S: Hurry up and order if you want to be included on these early shipments in Nov/Dec.
post #19 of 827
I wouldn't say no one, I hear the new Epson R-LCD have JVC blacks.
post #20 of 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post

I wouldn't say no one, I hear the new Epson R-LCD have JVC blacks.

No 3d though, and probably at twice the price of an RS45 that will probably end up having better contrast anyway.
post #21 of 827
The Panny 4000's didn't have a dust blob problem, they had a dust blob "fear". People actually having the dust blobs and people claiming to know someone that does, are 2 very different things.
post #22 of 827
My projector mount is about 5 feet above my head. Besides picture quality, I want to know which projector is quieter? Does the Panasonic auto-iris make much noise in action?
post #23 of 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

...The one thing I always liked about the JVC is that what you see, as far as specs, is what you end up getting (minus the obvious unpredicted lamp defects). But JVC's marketed lumens and NCR measurements are always right on with what the reviews conclude, give or take 10%...

I don't have a dog in this fight but this statement is at best an urban legend. If you are talking calibrated specs JVC has been no more reliable than any other company just check last year and the year before all the way to the RS1.

I agree that for the same price the RS45 will likely be better in 2D so I will bet on that dog!
post #24 of 827
If you have sound on, you will not hear the auto iris unless you fail to lube it after 25 years of operation. If you fail to do so. it will then sound like a Sherman Tank going over broken rocks. Seriously, with sound any diminmus noise will be masked.
post #25 of 827
I've gone thru a whole gamut of DLP, LCD and LCoS projectors, from 480p days to 720 to 1080. Among projectors, I've had BenQ, Optoma, Infocus, Mitubishi, Panny, Sanyo, Sony and JVC.

Of all of them, I was happiest with JVC RS1, RS2 and the Sony HW10 & HW15, all LCoS. The most disappointing was the Sanyo z4000 in its pedestrian contrast. The Mitus hc3800 threw a great picture (but so so contrast) but I've to returned it 3x for repair, sort of took the fun out.

My backup Ae900 has a small dust blob, no big deal. Bottom line, I would prefer the RS45 over the ae7000, especially they both have the same MSRP, a no brainer.

BTW, I do not care or have the need for 3D. Movie viewing is my top choice or bias.

Lastly, I found LCD contrast specs are meaningless, i.e., Epson, Panny and Sanyo.

Good luck to all.
post #26 of 827
I measured the z4000's native pretty high for an LCD, but yah it's no match for an LCOS and it's too dim. It was certainly much higher than the Mits hc4000 (and I had both of them side by side for hours).
Only the 8700ub gets a little closer to those LCOS levels (well matches the low-end Sony's nearly).

For contrast, yes you can't compare with LCOS, but then again they all have issues for certain things.

One disadvantage to LCD is some people are more sensitive to the "digital look" more than others, so you might not really see the SDE from normal seating distances, but theoretically it can still affect the perceived image.

It'll be curious to see how much the D9 panels have changed the look of the LCD image, because they have reduced SDE a little supposedly. Then again if we're back to contrast, LCD mise well hang it up (but DLP too for that matter).
post #27 of 827
This is not an easy decision this year. I'm fairly certain I will get the JVC45 but I also am keeping an open mind and wanting some details.

Like others I have no doubt the RS45 will likely best the Panasonic and the Sony HW30(which I also have an interest in) when it comes to 2D with the exception of FI.

However, I'm getting the feeling that 3D will look better on the Panasonic and the Sony. I also am sensitive to flicker and if the Panny and Sony are better in that area that's a definite plus. But the more I think about it and look at my blu-ray collection I see a handful of 3D blu-rays and 170 or so 2D blu-rays. This kind of puts things in perspective even though I know I'll be buying more 3D blu-rays as they come along.

Still a tough call though.
post #28 of 827
Probably the 3D will be better on the Sony and Panny is my guess, but still just a guess.

I think for now most of us should still consider 3D as dessert and not as the main course
post #29 of 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Probably the 3D will be better on the Sony and Panny is my guess, but still just a guess.

I think for now most of us should still consider 3D as dessert and not as the main course

Agreed.
post #30 of 827
yeah it's a tough call. I think the Sony is better at 3D and motion than RS45. I demoed the Sony at Magnolia and I am pleased with the blacks, contrast, and sharpness. It blew my Pro8100 away in dark scenes.
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