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Star Wars musings and various considerations

post #1 of 84
9/20/11 at 11:50am
Thread Starter 


I think it might be good to have a dedicated Star Wars thread, not just related to the movies, but for "everything Star Wars". Hoping such discussion can go on in a civilized way and following the release of the saga on Blu-ray, I'm under the impression that there is always something to discuss for the Star Wars geek in all of us It could be a way to keep the Blu-ray thread on topic and bring the non-technical aspects of the discussion over here.

So I'll start by saying this: after someone once again pointing out his desire to get the original trilogy on Blu-ray on the other forum, I'm really not sure we'll ever see that day happen. There's no reason to NOT do it today, other than George Lucas simply not wanting to do it. There will always be money to be made with Star Wars. The 3D versions are underway, which means a new Blu-ray set most likely on the table as well, + many more anniversary editions to come. There will always be a reason to buy a new release of Star Wars, if anything the simple fact that home video technology continues to advance. So why not including the unaltered OT already... I think it's just that George Lucas really really wants us to forget about the initial, original version of these films. To him, Star Wars is now one big film split in 6 parts.
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post #2 of 84
9/21/11 at 5:22am
Glad you started this thread as I wanted to say my little peace. I've certainly read of peoples opinions regarding changes to the original trilogy and never commented myself because frankly, I never cared. I've always held the opinion that these are George's movies and he can do what he wants with them. I saw the originals in the theater and didn't mind the enhancements.

I picked up the complete saga and watched A New Hope with my wife the other night. She's never seen it. We got to where Luke and Kenobi ride into town looking for a ship. There's a few CGI creatures scattered about. My wife says "is that real?". "What do you mean?" "Those animals". I paused it because I knew what she meant and wanted to explain.

I explained and she was disappointed. She had never seen Star Wars and knew that it was a national phenomenon in 1977 and was intensely curious about what it was in the 1977 world of cinema that caused all of the fuss.

I'm still on the fence about it, but I definitely see her point and understand her disappointment.

It's ironic though that I saw the originals and didn't care about the enhancements but someone who did *not* see the originals was disappointed because she wanted to experience what we did in 1977 but couldn't.

I bet we'll see the originals someday soon. Why not? I'd buy them.

Cary
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post #3 of 84
9/21/11 at 6:39am
Thread Starter 
Besides, whatever changes he comes up with, nobody can forget these films were actually made 30+ years before the prequels, that's just how it is. My daughter is 10 and she prefers the prequels. The OT, while she does like it, feels like another era to her, not her time, so she can't, and will never relate to them the same way.

Changing or adding a few CGI creatures is one thing though, but adding lame elements that affect the storyline and dumbs it down is different, and wrong. What happened George???
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post #4 of 84
9/21/11 at 7:25am
Unlike some, I actually welcome the changes that bring technical cohesion. But, some of the other changes do seem highly arbitrary.

It is rare for an artist to be perfectly happy with his or her work, but I wonder when George is finally going to be done with the edits.
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post #5 of 84
9/21/11 at 7:29am
I have nothing against a few changes here and there. I think the problem is when the changes destroys pacing or even distract you from the story.

The Jabba scene in EP IV is reduntant since greedo has already given us the backstory.

Adding CGI creatures may work, but not like the "dinosaur" that almost has an accident in Mos Eisly. No need for it. On the other hand it doesnt bother me when you se it in the background a couple of seconds later. That scene fits in, the first didnt.

Vader screaming no in the end of EpVI was one of the primary reason why I didnt pick up the latest release. If it were in the middle of movie I wouldnt have been so bothered, but this is the ending. You dont mess with an ending. If it aint broke why fix it.

But that he fixed some of the low quality shots of X-wings just improved the movie.

And I dont have to mention the Han Solo shooting Greedo thing...

So George can go ahead and change stuff, he should just let an outside team approve the changes. That way he could create the best version ever of Star Wars.
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post #6 of 84
9/21/11 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Vader screaming no in the end of EpVI was one of the primary reason why I didnt pick up the latest release. If it were in the middle of movie I wouldnt have been so bothered, but this is the ending. You dont mess with an ending. If it aint broke why fix it.

I haven't seen this new addition to the scene in question yet.
Judging by its descriptions, I have to wonder if anyone has given thought to perhaps this "NO" has more than ONE meaning?


Quote:


he should just let an outside team approve the changes. That way he could create the best version ever of Star Wars.

You're kidding, right?
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post #7 of 84
9/21/11 at 11:10am
The CGI is mostly bad and pulls the viewer out of the immersion, especially when the hacked-in CGI is put in alongside 1977 practical effects.
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post #8 of 84
9/21/11 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post

Glad you started this thread as I wanted to say my little peace. I've certainly read of peoples opinions regarding changes to the original trilogy and never commented myself because frankly, I never cared. I've always held the opinion that these are George's movies and he can do what he wants with them. I saw the originals in the theater and didn't mind the enhancements.

I picked up the complete saga and watched A New Hope with my wife the other night. She's never seen it. We got to where Luke and Kenobi ride into town looking for a ship. There's a few CGI creatures scattered about. My wife says "is that real?". "What do you mean?" "Those animals". I paused it because I knew what she meant and wanted to explain.

I explained and she was disappointed. She had never seen Star Wars and knew that it was a national phenomenon in 1977 and was intensely curious about what it was in the 1977 world of cinema that caused all of the fuss.

I'm still on the fence about it, but I definitely see her point and understand her disappointment.

It's ironic though that I saw the originals and didn't care about the enhancements but someone who did *not* see the originals was disappointed because she wanted to experience what we did in 1977 but couldn't.

I bet we'll see the originals someday soon. Why not? I'd buy them.

Cary

This is exactly what people should think and feel about this monstricity. It's simply something that never, or "could" have existed. It causes audience to be drawn out of the film to question the effects. This is a problem.

The sad thing, is that ALL review sites, even including AVSforum, didn't even mention these changes...

Glad I'm not buying this hunk of crap. HDnet versions are free, and my version of A new Hope doesn't have the craptastic greedo scene.
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post #9 of 84
9/21/11 at 11:57am
That's a good point. My wife *knew* that the special effects she was seeing were definitely not "circa 1977" and it pulled her out. Everything was groovy when the film met her expectations of a film made in 1977 but went sour when the "cinematic anachronisms" were introduced.

Cary

PS. For what it's worth, she still enjoyed it very much, but harbors some disappointment in not seeing the original. At this point, more than 30 years later, there's some "historical curiosity" involved when watching this that goes unsatisfied.
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post #10 of 84
9/21/11 at 12:19pm
Technical changes are fine, though I am still a big fan of preserving history. The original films are a product of that time. Too many of the changes make the scene worse, not better. Jedi Rocks. REALLY?? Vader screaming noooooo at the end of Jedi? I figured out what was going on with Vader when I was ten, are you saying today's generation is too dumb and needs a verbal cue? How about having Luke scream as he falls in the 1997 versions, only to revert to the original where Luke doesn't scream in the 2004 DVD release? What is the point?!
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post #11 of 84
9/21/11 at 12:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FendersRule View Post

This is exactly what people should think and feel about this monstricity. It's simply something that never, or "could" have existed. It causes audience to be drawn out of the film to question the effects. This is a problem.

The sad thing, is that ALL review sites, even including AVSforum, didn't even mention these changes...

Glad I'm not buying this hunk of crap. HDnet versions are free, and my version of A new Hope doesn't have the craptastic greedo scene.

There's still a lot to like on the Blu-ray version though. As much as I despise some of the changes, I don't regret my purchase one bit. Why? Because it makes me enjoy watching these films again, the 6.1 mix is just insane at times, even the prequels I can appreciate them a little more than before or maybe I'm just getting used to them. Now I'll just press mute for a few seconds at the end of ROTJ and everything will be fine.
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post #12 of 84
9/21/11 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonyeuw View Post

Vader screaming noooooo at the end of Jedi? I figured out what was going on with Vader when I was ten, are you saying today's generation is too dumb and needs a verbal cue? How about having Luke scream as he falls in the 1997 versions, only to revert to the original where Luke doesn't scream in the 2004 DVD release? What is the point?!

Did you understand at 10 Anakin's long descent to the darkside as portrayed in Episodes 1-3?
No?
Well, no one could.
The prequels didn't exist then.

Yes, we knew Darth was a fallen Jedi, but we didn't anything beyond that.

The prequels are the story of Anakin's fall from grace, his embrace of the darkside of the force.
And the emperor who represented it and seduced him with empty promises and deceit.

"Noooooo" by Anakin, in that scene, would mean a heckuva a lot more than simply "no."
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post #13 of 84
9/21/11 at 1:11pm
Anybody else find the "NOOOOOOO" humorous?--considering George is, in a way, "raping" the films/our childhoods/etc.?
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post #14 of 84
9/21/11 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post

Anybody else find the "NOOOOOOO" humorous?--considering George is, in a way, "raping" the films/our childhoods/etc.?

Uh, NOOOOooooo.....
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post #15 of 84
9/21/11 at 1:27pm
I think so much of the charm of older films ,whether they be 1977 or 1927, is in what they did with what they had. The constant revision ,especially with effects that are now dated, adds nothing and is in fact distracting.

Art
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post #16 of 84
9/21/11 at 1:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

"Noooooo" by Anakin, in that scene, would mean a heckuva a lot more than simply "no."


Star Wars is a sci-fi romance!

...I have yet to watch ROTJ btw. I agree with you about the 'no'. Adding it gives more signification to the scene, it's not just about his son or redeeming himself, it's about Padme and his love for her, which the Emperor is about to terminate, Luke being the tangible proof of that love. So one thing never died during all those years, Anakin's love for Padme. THAT SAID......it's difficult to adapt to the updated scene after 30 years of silence
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post #17 of 84
9/21/11 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Did you understand at 10 Anakin's long descent to the darkside as portrayed in Episodes 1-3?
No?
Well, no one could.
The prequels didn't exist then.

Yes, we knew Darth was a fallen Jedi, but we didn't anything beyond that.

The prequels are the story of Anakin's fall from grace, his embrace of the darkside of the force.
And the emperor who represented it and seduced him with empty promises and deceit.

"Noooooo" by Anakin, in that scene, would mean a heckuva a lot more than simply "no."

I understood at 10, that Vader was in conflict. In the scope of what we knew about Star Wars at that point, it didn't require an audio cue to 'get' what was going on his head. And even with the prequels behind us now and the story fleshed out, an audio cue still wasn't needed. The ingenuity of the scene was in knowing how Vader felt even though we couldn't see his face. And not a single syllable needed to be uttered.

I mean, in all the times you've watched that scene, were you sitting there thinking 'Hmmmm this scene lacks.....something. Ah, a big ole NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO as he's lifting up Palpatine would improve the scene 10-fold!!'
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post #18 of 84
9/21/11 at 3:19pm
The "NOOOOOOOO!!" in Episode III was when he fully embraced the dark side and became Darth Vader. The "NOOOOOO!!" in ROTJ is when he rejected the dark side.

Still completely unneeded, but I can see why he put it in there.
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post #19 of 84
9/21/11 at 4:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post

The "NOOOOOOOO!!" in Episode III was when he fully embraced the dark side and became Darth Vader.

Because Padme died. See... love story all the way.
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post #20 of 84
9/21/11 at 5:58pm
There is one very important factor that today's audiences will never be able to truly appreciate about the original trilogy, with or without Lucas's changes.

They will never know what a totally mindblowing experience it was to walk into a theater in 1977 and sit down and watch Star Wars for the very first time. Watching that Star Destroyer fly overhead in the opening scene was one of the most awe-inspiring moments in the history of cinema. It was a worldwide phenomena because no one had ever seen anything like it. Every frame represented something no one had ever seen before. It may have lost some of its luster over the last 34 years, but no one can take away the feeling I had back in 77.
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post #21 of 84
9/21/11 at 11:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

There is one very important factor that today's audiences will never be able to truly appreciate about the original trilogy, with or without Lucas's changes.

They will never know what a totally mindblowing experience it was to walk into a theater in 1977 and sit down and watch Star Wars for the very first time. Watching that Star Destroyer fly overhead in the opening scene was one of the most awe-inspiring moments in the history of cinema. It was a worldwide phenomena because no one had ever seen anything like it. Every frame represented something no one had ever seen before. It may have lost some of its luster over the last 34 years, but no one can take away the feeling I had back in 77.

+1

I was there too.
At the Grauman's Chinese Theater, during a midnight showing, the entire audience actually STOOD UP and cheered.
I have never seen anything comparable before nor since.
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post #22 of 84
9/21/11 at 11:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonyeuw View Post

And even with the prequels behind us now and the story fleshed out, an audio cue still wasn't needed.

For me, an audio cue WASN'T needed.

However, I rather doubt GL put the audio in for someone like me.
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post #23 of 84
9/22/11 at 1:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

For me, an audio cue WASN'T needed.

However, I rather doubt GL put the audio in for someone like me.

Then who do you reckon it was put in for??
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post #24 of 84
9/22/11 at 10:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonyeuw View Post

Then who do you reckon it was put in for??

George Lucas himself?
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post #25 of 84
9/22/11 at 10:34am
Here they compare the changes between the versions, with added info of the BD.

http://www.dvdactive.com/editorial/a...-part-one.html

I have just started to read it, but i got even more sceptical of the new release.
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post #26 of 84
9/22/11 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonyeuw View Post

Then who do you reckon it was put in for??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post

George Lucas himself?

Like I said earlier, to help complete the circle of Anakin Skywalker and his journey in the Force (as laid out in the prequels).

Also, perhaps for newer generations who are not as familiar with the story and its history.
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post #27 of 84
9/22/11 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Like I said earlier, to help complete the circle of Anakin Skywalker and his journey in the Force (as laid out in the prequels).

Also, perhaps for newer generations who are not as familiar with the story and its history.

If future generations watch the series from episode 1-6, they can reconcile the journey from Anakin's fall to his redemption without superficially adding in dialogue. Anakin/Vader's actions during his fall( killing children, turning on the Jedi) and his redemption( turning on the emperor) aren't sufficient enough for the viewer? What more do you need than his actions, which as is often said, speak louder than words?

I mean seriously, was Vader screaming NOOOOOOO at the end of ROTS the moment when the average person is supposed to be clued into his fall from grace? We couldn't have figured that out when he pulled the lightsaber on the children? We need a mirroring 'NOOOOOO' at the end of ROTJ to get clued into his redemption? Lifting the emperor over his head, the image of him looking back and forth at Palpatine and Luke, the climaxing music, wasn't enough?
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post #28 of 84
9/22/11 at 11:33am
Is this "NOOOOOOO" thing really such a big deal? I don't think so. Sure it's DIFFERENT, but it's not so illogical that it leaves me dumbfounded, going "why the hell is THAT in there??!!" like some of the other changes. Last night was the first time I had seen Christensen as Anakin's ghost, and THAT had me going WTF???--Much like the added Jabba scene or especially the damned song and dance scene in Jabba's palace ::shudder::

I'm not sure what Lucas was going for with the Christensen ghost but any positive reasons are overshadowed by negative backlashes.

Maybe he wanted to show Anakin when he was still good? Well, that's nice and all George, but if he didn't become bad, he could've never overTHROWN (har har har) the emperor. So, in this case, it's good to be bad.

Maybe he wanted to give us a familiar face to connect with? Well, George that face totally turned the most fearsome and recognizable villains in film history into a sniveling weakling.
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post #29 of 84
9/22/11 at 11:40am
Han shoots first in the Hyperspace Collection. Just sayin.
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post #30 of 84
9/22/11 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post

Is this "NOOOOOOO" thing really such a big deal? I don't think so.

Like all the changes, it's a big deal when the edited movies continue to be released and made widely available, while the originals are being discarded or left to inferior formats( VHS, LD, Non-anamorphic DVD). Lucas releasing the originals would kill off the backlash immediately. Otherwise I hope he makes Luke and Han brothers for the 3D release, for those who 'don't care' about the changes.
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