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Official Pioneer Kuro Reddish Tint Problem Thread - Page 36

post #1051 of 2557
What is IIRC?
post #1052 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by mopar426 View Post

What is IIRC?
If I remember correctly
post #1053 of 2557
Oh da, and here I thought it might mean Interlaced Image Reflection Calibration.

Yes, I'm joking now.
post #1054 of 2557
Imo i think it is genuinely a waste of much needed spare parts for ageing display models that might genuinely need them for something else.

If a voltage re-adjustment/reset/both - remedies the issue then that (should) be Pioneers approach.

It does no harm as far as calibration accuracy afterwards - according to some who calibrated their plasma after tweaks and or resets.
post #1055 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

If a voltage re-adjustment/reset/both - remedies the issue then that (should) be Pioneers approach.

I want to agree with this statement but have no backing to do so other than this thread. On the contrary Pioneer wanted nothing to do with Voltage adjustment to the point of arguing with the Tech that one doesn't exist in the 111. (As absurd as that sounds)
I paid for a warranty and its paying for these parts four years later. If Pioneer is directing this show and wishes to put new parts in this set then I will allow such. At this point the only waste for me is my time...and only time will tell if the maker of this set actually can fix this issue.
post #1056 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by mopar426 View Post

I want to agree with this statement but have no backing to do so other than this thread. On the contrary Pioneer wanted nothing to do with Voltage adjustment to the point of arguing with the Tech that one doesn't exist in the 111. (As absurd as that sounds)
I paid for a warranty and its paying for these parts four years later. If Pioneer is directing this show and wishes to put new parts in this set then I will allow such. At this point the only waste for me is my time...and only time will tell if the maker of this set actually can fix this issue.

Consider yourself lucky Pioneer is even doing something other than stick their heads in the sand and claim its normal. I've been dealing with their avoidance for over 2 years, and over that time my set has become progressively worse, to the point the red has invaded the picture itself. Displaying near black test patterns, there is red at 0, 1, 2, 3, and a little at 4. I've given up on Pioneer Canada's attitude and unwillingness to address this issue, and have filed a small claims court suit against them.

Keep us up to date with your replacement board, and hopefully it will correct the problem.
Edited by vega509 - 3/2/13 at 12:49pm
post #1057 of 2557
Main Board was replaced Friday afternoon. It was a "repaired" board though. I asked if it would be contain the factory settings as if new and was told yes. No proof though. After it was installed the tech was unable to show me the hours of operation. I'm skeptical to say the least. As you may be able to concluded, it did nothing to fix the problem. Even at the setup screen when it asks "Home " or "Store", there it was along the bottom and top bezel as if there was a red back-light seeping out around the frame. As far as I know that board could have been pulled from another 111 that had the same problem. Yeah that's me being paranoid I guess.

Tech says its the panel. Said it before he even put the Main Board in but "that's what Pioneer said to do". The next step is a new panel, but wait, they state they cant get one. So three surgeries later and time off work I'm exactly were I started. 1515.96 in parts and 430.00 in labor, all covered by my warranty, I'm now faced with a decision; Keep it or Trade it in? My options are to trade it now for Panasonic V series, w 5 year warranty and calibration or see how long I can hold out for the Panasonic Z coming out April or May and I'll probably have to throw in a little cash to get there. I currently believe the PRO-111FD is the best but as my wife said "Yours isn't if you have a red tint you cant get rid of".

What to do? Thoughts? Suggestions? Can I live with a the Second Best "V" or wait for the potential new King Z created by those engineers who made the Kuro as bad ass as it is...well not mine. I see 111's on E-bay for Two Grand but I'm getting more than that on the swap out.

Below is the Main Board



Model #

Edited by mopar426 - 3/9/13 at 4:44pm
post #1058 of 2557
It's really retarded from Pioneer's side to not want to try adjusting the voltages, we all know they're there and it's pretty much the only thing that help make changes to the red tint.

I say wait, next gen consoles will come out by the end of the year and more sets will be available and features that could be helpful (such as HDMI 2.0 and stuff like that). I am looking to upgrade to a bigger display myself and the options out there suck hard at the moment, is there any word on Sharp producing another Elite model? Because that would have potential to finally match the Kuro or exceed it in terms of PQ.
post #1059 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by mopar426 View Post

Main Board was replaced Friday afternoon. It was a "repaired" board though. I asked if it would be contain the factory settings as if new and was told yes. No proof though. After it was installed the tech was unable to show me the hours of operation. I'm skeptical to say the least. As you may be able to concluded, it did nothing to fix the problem. Even at the setup screen when it asks "Home " or "Store", there it was along the bottom and top bezel as if there was a red back-light seeping out around the frame. As far as I know that board could have been pulled from another 111 that had the same problem. Yeah that's me being paranoid I guess.

Tech says its the panel. Said it before he even put the Main Board in but "that's what Pioneer said to do". The next step is a new panel, but wait, they state they cant get one. So three surgeries later and time off work I'm exactly were I started. 1515.96 in parts and 430.00 in labor, all covered by my warranty, I'm now faced with a decision; Keep it or Trade it in? My options are to trade it now for Panasonic V series, w 5 year warranty and calibration or see how long I can hold out for the Panasonic Z coming out April or May and I'll probably have to throw in a little cash to get there. I currently believe the PRO-111FD is the best but as my wife said "Yours isn't if you have a red tint you cant get rid of".

What to do? Thoughts? Suggestions? Can I live with a the Second Best "V" or wait for the potential new King Z created by those engineers who made the Kuro as bad ass as it is...well not mine. I see 111's on E-bay for Two Grand but I'm getting more than that on the swap out.

Below is the Main Board



Model #
so say it is the panel, have just read over on the uk av forums, from a well know calibrator.
post #1060 of 2557
Are you stating this well known calibrator agrees that it is the panel? Evidence is mounting but what exactly is going on? D-Nice had stated it was set up wrong at the factory. Is it ruined? Does it get worse? Mine has spread (viewable) about 3" from bottom.
post #1061 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by mopar426 View Post

Are you stating this well known calibrator agrees that it is the panel? Evidence is mounting but what exactly is going on? D-Nice had stated it was set up wrong at the factory. Is it ruined? Does it get worse? Mine has spread (viewable) about 3" from bottom.
from what i have read over on that forum yes, take a look yourself
post #1062 of 2557
Just did a quick search. read a couple interesting things about an lx5090 and Pioneers take. I clearly don't understand why this only effects the bottom and top of my panel and not the rest of the viewable area?
post #1063 of 2557
I'm not sure if all red tint issues behave the same, but my 5020FD had very very little red tint near the top and bottom bezel, I was barely able to notice it even in a completely dark room when I first caught the issue, but as time progressed it became A LOT worse, it was easy to notice it even in a semi dark room because the red tint was covering pretty much half of the screen.
post #1064 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigyboy View Post

from what i have read over on that forum yes, take a look yourself

Oh not you as well wink.gif

It's not the panel. The panel needs to be driven by something - something adjusted clears the tint.

It's not the panel. It's a get out clause because they aren't made anymore.

= Saves money.

Techs i spoke to swore on their pets life - it's not the panel.

Someone is lying then. smile.gif
post #1065 of 2557
I read recently a service manual of the last monitors before the KRP's.

Plenty interesting stuff in there. And (the importance) of (correctly) setting up each of the voltages in conjunction with waveforms etc etc and a whole lot more.

In fact there is far more information in the older manuals than is in the 8 & 9G's.
Edited by Stu03 - 3/11/13 at 7:41am
post #1066 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

It's not the panel. The panel needs to be driven by something - something adjusted clears the tint.

I have new Y Board, New Logic Board and New Main Board. If its not any of those boards and its not the panel, as you state, then what is it?
Is there information that the panel gives back, that makes the Logic board try to correct (for age?) thus creating this issue?

IF its simply a voltage adjustment then for a Pro-111FD, what is said adjustment? Give a step by step on how to get to that part of the service menu. I could try it before I trade it for a Panasonic V or Z.
post #1067 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Oh not you as well wink.gif

It's not the panel. The panel needs to be driven by something - something adjusted clears the tint.

It's not the panel. It's a get out clause because they aren't made anymore.

= Saves money.

Techs i spoke to swore on their pets life - it's not the panel.

Someone is lying then. smile.gif
LOL LOL,
post #1068 of 2557
The well known calibrator that stated this on the AVForums is talking about matters he does not know anything about. Routinely his advice is countered by well thought out arguments and is several times made incorrect statements about calibration which were corrected by other members. I begs the question if we can trust any information regarding technical aspects.

As Stu03 has already stated here, the panel is driven which is causing the issue. As this occurred over time and can be adjusted out, shows that the nature of the red tint does not emanate from the panel. Several generations have seen these issues, which use different panel types. Even other manufacturers have seen the same problem. I think D-Nice has accurately observed the problem and conducted experiments accordingly. All the evidence points towards the driving side of the panel.

This forum is much more open to the concept of the red tint, and seems like the AVForums is rather stunted because of the continuous negative comments made.

I hope you get things sorted ASAP Mopar, its said to see that they are unable to pull their finger out and fix it.
post #1069 of 2557
So it is possible the refurb Main Board is trying to drive the panel the same way as the old Main Board, with the same result. What is making it do that? That's why I ask if the panel itself has any data (hours of operation) that could tell any Main board or Logic Board or Y Board to do what they are doing. "Hey, I've got over 10,000 hours, I need this to be done to help me cause someone three years ago though I would".

Also, why is it only along the bottom (fades to black within 3 inches) and top (faded to black within 1"). The only logic (and boy I'm finding I don't have much left on this one) I can come up with is the clustering of the pixels in rows at the bottom and top experience more or less elements; heat, vibration, magnetic waves or whatever, as they are associated with an edge, than those in the center of the panel who's environment is as that of its neighbor therefore acting the same. Stupid I know but this really has me baffled.
post #1070 of 2557
I would assume that the localisation of electric field is greater at the edge where the components are situated. These area's coincidently show the increased area's of temperature when operating. Elevated temperatures can affect the plasma conditions affecting the discharge parameters. Plasma is the ionization of atoms from a gas molecule, and the increase in temperature and you increase the energy given to the dissociated ions. More energetic ions for a given gas density would affect the electrical parameters within the plasma region and through the plasma.

The panel itself is a physical stack of materials, each owning to a particular property (DBD, TCO, Filters etc). Natural ageing of the panel which results in the degradation of phosphors from plasma ignition. This degradation is assumed to be uniform across the panel with each RGB having an associated decay rate from exposure. Images despite being non-uniform and rapidly altering which would allow us to assume through watching a host of mixed material as we do to age evenly. Only would be experience uneven wear from burn in if the panel was used permanently with a logo in place. In normal operation, nothing should change in the panel composition apart from this natural ageing.

Obtaining the red tint defect is a non-uniform discharge that is localised to the hottest area's of the panel. As the panel is the "non-active" part of the device and is only excited by the "active" driving side, it indicates the driving side of the panel is defective or in abnormal operation. Voltage tweaking has proven this to be the case. If the panel was defective, it would be a permanent feature despite the "active" input, just like burn-in.



Mopar, I assume the fact your panel still exhibits this defect that the appropriate adjustments have not been made (hours/pulse cleared, voltage adjustment etc). It is possibly likely that individual components have memory for storing specific discharge functions. I hope you get it sorted soon. If not the the ZT60 / F8500 are only around the corner, and looks like the F8500 is going to be an excellent set.
post #1071 of 2557
Ok, great read. Thank you.

So, if the voltages are adjusting to compensate for age thats based on hours/pulse, then what were they in the beginning and is this so basic that anyone who hits the right amount of hours will begin this dreaded downgrade from black to red?

I have not adjusted one setting in the service menu to date. Just looked at it when she was under the knife. I would like to try to adjust a VOL and see. I do recall seeing the VOL YKNOFSA at 128...I think. I've read someone dropped theirs to 88 and have their KURO again. My issue is I don't have the dang service remote anymore. I have also seen the attempts made with a hyper-terminal but that seams a bit shaky. I do have a Universal Remote MX-7??. if i could get codes that would be awesome.

The fact that I can basically swap this PRO-111RT (RT for Red Tint) for a VT50, get it calibrated and get 5 more years of a warranted set seams a no-brainer....slightly different story on the Z as I may have to dig in the wallet a bit.

I just want to know
post #1072 of 2557
I started noticing a reddish hue in black material a few months ago in my 5020. I have no idea how many hours I've used it but I purchased it in Feb. 2009, four years and one month ago. I don't think I will spend any time or money in trying to fix it, will probably go with a ZT60 or F8500 in the coming months and be done with it.
post #1073 of 2557
I, too, wonder if it's an inevitability on all 9G panels, eventually. I purchased my 111FD around the same time as you and have not much over 2000 hours with no sign of creeping redness. Relatively light usage after 4 years, with it mostly being reserved for Blu-ray (and the occasional TV serials earlier in its life; say, the first 2 years).
post #1074 of 2557
I would guess it affects 10% of Kuro's.

It's an easily fixable issue. Just needs care most of all - and a bit of patience.

The only upgrade in a F8500 over 60" or ZT will be size.

I have a new 500M sat waiting for me with fourteen months Pioneer warranty remaining.

Couldn't ask for more until 4K res 0MLL (pro) display is here few years in the future.
post #1075 of 2557
I would guess it affects 10% of Kuro's.

It's an easily fixable issue. Just needs care most of all - and a bit of patience.

The only upgrade in a F8500 over 60" or ZT will be size.

I have a new 500M sat waiting for me with fourteen months Pioneer warranty remaining.

Couldn't ask for more until 4K res 0MLL (pro) display is here few years in the future (hopefully)

Can't see how it can be an upgrade otherwise
post #1076 of 2557
I wouldn't go as far as saying it's an easy problem to fix though, trying to fix it brings a whole bunch of issues that you'll have to go through trials and errors trying to eliminate them if that's even possible, will probably even require further tweaking as time progresses. It's annoying as hell.

I too got a new 500M not long ago, but I really need a larger set by now, 50" just doesn't cut it anymore. PS4 should be here by the end of the year and I hope there will be a nice large set that I can get by then or till mid 2014 at most, Kuro's PQ set some very high standards and I won't settle for something that doesn't at least match it.

65" set that matches the Kuro's PQ but produces even better blacks during low contrast scenes would be perfect, I honesty don't care much for 4K in a display panel because I'd like to have that on a 120"+ projector screen instead to actually see the resolution improvement.
Edited by metallicaband - 3/14/13 at 2:14am
post #1077 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

The only upgrade in a F8500 over 60" or ZT will be size.

I have a new 500M sat waiting for me with fourteen months Pioneer warranty remaining.

Couldn't ask for more until 4K res 0MLL (pro) display is here few years in the future.
Size is very important. wink.gif If the 9G black level can at least be matched by either aforementioned set and one has the resources in this shattered economy, that will be a worthy upgrade for many who feel hampered by 50". Not ideal, mind you, but doable.
post #1078 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooldude45 View Post

I would assume that the localisation of electric field is greater at the edge where the components are situated. These area's coincidently show the increased area's of temperature when operating. Elevated temperatures can affect the plasma conditions affecting the discharge parameters. Plasma is the ionization of atoms from a gas molecule, and the increase in temperature and you increase the energy given to the dissociated ions. More energetic ions for a given gas density would affect the electrical parameters within the plasma region and through the plasma.

The panel itself is a physical stack of materials, each owning to a particular property (DBD, TCO, Filters etc). Natural ageing of the panel which results in the degradation of phosphors from plasma ignition. This degradation is assumed to be uniform across the panel with each RGB having an associated decay rate from exposure. Images despite being non-uniform and rapidly altering which would allow us to assume through watching a host of mixed material as we do to age evenly. Only would be experience uneven wear from burn in if the panel was used permanently with a logo in place. In normal operation, nothing should change in the panel composition apart from this natural ageing.

Obtaining the red tint defect is a non-uniform discharge that is localised to the hottest area's of the panel. As the panel is the "non-active" part of the device and is only excited by the "active" driving side, it indicates the driving side of the panel is defective or in abnormal operation. Voltage tweaking has proven this to be the case. If the panel was defective, it would be a permanent feature despite the "active" input, just like burn-in.
Both the physical structure and the electrical properties of the cells change with usage.

In other words, the voltages needed to discharge the cells properly shift with usage time and this shift is caused by the physical changes within the cell.

IIRC here are a few physical changes that cause electrical shifts within a cell.
  • MgO is sputtered off of the top electrode and onto the walls, adjacent cells, and phosphors.
  • MgO surface morphology and impurity concentration change with discharge time.
  • Phosphors age due to solarization.

For black level, the required reset voltage (aka – initialization voltage) definitely shifts with usage time due to all the above processes. This is because all of the above processes change the exoelectron and secondary electron properties of the cells.
post #1079 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Both the physical structure and the electrical properties of the cells change with usage.

In other words, the voltages needed to discharge the cells properly shift with usage time and this shift is caused by the physical changes within the cell.

IIRC here are a few physical changes that cause electrical shifts within a cell.
  • MgO is sputtered off of the top electrode and onto the walls, adjacent cells, and phosphors.
  • MgO surface morphology and impurity concentration change with discharge time.
  • Phosphors age due to solarization.

For black level, the required reset voltage (aka – initialization voltage) definitely shifts with usage time due to all the above processes. This is because all of the above processes change the exoelectron and secondary electron properties of the cells.

I appreciate my post may not be completely clear. The aspects you discuss would contribute to across the entire panel, if we assume uniform ageing of the panel (from average viewing content we can assume this to be case). As the tint is a defect that affect routinely one area and spreads across the panel, it indicate a change in the driving side of the discharge characteristics. If the panel was the failing component, voltage tweaking would not reduce the tint. Equally it has been said previously a panel swap without reset showed the red tint in the same fashion. Sputtering the panel materials would occur evenly through age, image retention/burn would emanate from area's of persistent localised discharge, red tint from abnormal driving characteristics.

I understand these to be case when the panel ages, its a natural occurrence with how they operate. However though these panels are in their infancy with regards to the hours accumulated in their life the projected lifetime of the panel until half brightness is met. Its not feasible that the discharge characteristics have shifted so significantly when the panel has operated typically for 10,000 hours. This is a 1% of the projected lifetime of these panel given a 100,000 hours.

My post is just emphasising the fact it would not be an issue with the panel.
post #1080 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooldude45 View Post

I appreciate my post may not be completely clear.
Very well may be the case. My response was not to argue the cause of the red tint but to point out that the driving voltages and physical panel affect each other. Your post suggested they did not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooldude45 View Post

The aspects you discuss would contribute to across the entire panel
Not necessarily. The material thickness does vary across the panel (on purpose in some cases). Combine that with some very tight voltage thresholds and you can get unwanted non-uniformities. The KURO models had an ovel shape to the black level due to this phenomenon IIRC (see below). It can also cause non-uniformities in color as well as the RGB have seperate threshold

KURO black level non-uniformity profile


Quote:
Originally Posted by cooldude45 View Post

As the tint is a defect that affect routinely one area and spreads across the panel, it indicate a change in the driving side of the discharge characteristics. If the panel was the failing component, voltage tweaking would not reduce the tint.
Poor assumption IMO. Again, the panel characteristics and the driving voltages must be matched. If either shift an image quality issue can arise. If the panel shifts then obviously tweeking the voltages (either manually or automatically) can solve the problem. Especially with regards to exoelectrons (priming). Don't assume the non-uniformity excludes this phenomenon. The thresholds can be tight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooldude45 View Post

Equally it has been said previously a panel swap without reset showed the red tint in the same fashion.
Not equal at all. This is much greater evidence that the driving voltages may have shifted. But not proof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooldude45 View Post

Its not feasible that the discharge characteristics have shifted so significantly when the panel has operated typically for 10,000 hours. This is a 1% of the projected lifetime of these panel given a 100,000 hours.
If you look at discharge characteristics over panel usage time (found in patent literature) you will see the greatest changes happen in the beginning.
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