Official Pioneer Kuro Reddish Tint Problem Thread - Page 37

Size is very important. If the 9G black level can at least be matched by either aforementioned set and one has the resources in this shattered economy, that will be a worthy upgrade for many who feel hampered by 50". Not ideal, mind you, but doable.

Both the physical structure and the electrical properties of the cells change with usage.

In other words, the voltages needed to discharge the cells properly shift with usage time and this shift is caused by the physical changes within the cell.

IIRC here are a few physical changes that cause electrical shifts within a cell.

• MgO is sputtered off of the top electrode and onto the walls, adjacent cells, and phosphors.
  
• MgO surface morphology and impurity concentration change with discharge time.
  
• Phosphors age due to solarization.

For black level, the required reset voltage (aka – initialization voltage) definitely shifts with usage time due to all the above processes. This is because all of the above processes change the exoelectron and secondary electron properties of the cells.

I appreciate my post may not be completely clear. The aspects you discuss would contribute to across the entire panel, if we assume uniform ageing of the panel (from average viewing content we can assume this to be case). As the tint is a defect that affect routinely one area and spreads across the panel, it indicate a change in the driving side of the discharge characteristics. If the panel was the failing component, voltage tweaking would not reduce the tint. Equally it has been said previously a panel swap without reset showed the red tint in the same fashion. Sputtering the panel materials would occur evenly through age, image retention/burn would emanate from area's of persistent localised discharge, red tint from abnormal driving characteristics.

I understand these to be case when the panel ages, its a natural occurrence with how they operate. However though these panels are in their infancy with regards to the hours accumulated in their life the projected lifetime of the panel until half brightness is met. Its not feasible that the discharge characteristics have shifted so significantly when the panel has operated typically for 10,000 hours. This is a 1% of the projected lifetime of these panel given a 100,000 hours.

My post is just emphasising the fact it would not be an issue with the panel.

Very well may be the case. My response was not to argue the cause of the red tint but to point out that the driving voltages and physical panel affect each other. Your post suggested they did not.
Not necessarily. The material thickness does vary across the panel (on purpose in some cases). Combine that with some very tight voltage thresholds and you can get unwanted non-uniformities. The KURO models had an ovel shape to the black level due to this phenomenon IIRC (see below). It can also cause non-uniformities in color as well as the RGB have seperate threshold

KURO black level non-uniformity profile


Poor assumption IMO. Again, the panel characteristics and the driving voltages must be matched. If either shift an image quality issue can arise. If the panel shifts then obviously tweeking the voltages (either manually or automatically) can solve the problem. Especially with regards to exoelectrons (priming). Don't assume the non-uniformity excludes this phenomenon. The thresholds can be tight.
Not equal at all. This is much greater evidence that the driving voltages may have shifted. But not proof.
If you look at discharge characteristics over panel usage time (found in patent literature) you will see the greatest changes happen in the beginning.

To clarify, I have not had my panel swapped out. Only the Y, Logic and Main Boards.

I like the heat theory at the edges. I can add (guess) that since heat rises the pixels at the top of the panel are in a more uniformed theater as those in the center, hence they display only a 1" fade to black from the top edge down than the 3" fade to black from the bottom edge up.

Further, if voltage adjustments are being made by the driving side over time to compensate for age, who is dictating age other than the set's internal clock(s)? Is there data and/or measurements given back from the panel, or other, to dictate age or is is just a clock with an alarm that goes off at 10,000 hours? Or does it start at 1000 hours and decays from that point to were 10,000 hours starts exhibiting the red tint but the set itself doesn't know its doing such?

If said adjustments are being made, can we assume they are being made uniformly across every pixel because every pixel on the board was born the same day and, determined by the clock(s), are as old as the next?

While this uniform adjustment is occurring and compensating for the majority, those at the edges who need more help, or less, are the ones suffering. A manual adjustment of say the VOLYKNOFSA from 128 downward could then correct the edge issues yet create a potential mess in the field. Was its initial level @ 128 or was it more or less. Does anyone even know?

Thing is.

I don't think tweaks (on their own) is the way to do it.

Pioneer in Germany reset and retweaked for a guy a few years ago. Probably for a good reason - ageing that has taken place previously the most likley candidate probably.

It's unlikely they would have sent back a panel with artefacts.

Yes bigger is better - but for me in a smallish bedroom sitting 5ft (average) sometimes closer sometimes a bit further 50" is plenty big enough for my surroundings otherwise i wouldn't bother. And well - it's a 500 after all

PS4/720 is hopefully going to produce some 'real' 1080p gaming. Can't wait. And being sat at the usual 5ft ish distance - 4K 0MLL OLED, 51" to 55" screen size will be big enough to appreciate 4K. As long as my eyes don't fail me in the next five years anyway that is :laugh:

A guy on the UK version of this made an extremely good point - that there has been an example of a brand new panel replacement for this issue. I can remember reading it myself a good while back.

And without tweaks - the tint returned within ten minutes.

People are replacing components left, right, and centre with no change.

It's looking pretty tasty for a driving/algorithm issue.

New panel = Reset of pulse and hours regardless (or should)

I feel genuinely for people who have/had this issue with no (real) help. These displays cost a lot of money and it's a bitter pill

Mopar246

I posted this on the UK version not too long ago. It's from an older review, thermal imaging. I can't remember exactly what contrast used in the review was but perhaps it was around 35 and probably Pure mode. It explains i guess a lot of heat generated through voltage driving through the YSUS/drive component board. And down that side where the tint usually begins top right corner down the right hand side. But it doesn't really explain why the "tint" moves along the bottom edge and across the whole display eventually i suppose. But one thing is certain (pre reset) (tweaks only reductions) eliminates the red tint down that side when a couple or one voltage is lowered.

Makes me wonder why my fans never turn on??? When I bought mine, I actually purchased two which went to another family member . He does not have this issue and by comparison is no were near the 12,000 hours and his fans don't turn on either.

I bought a PRO-150FD during 2007, which appears to have no "red tint" issue.

I just checked the service menu, which returned these values:

Temperature:

TEMP1 102.0 (F)
TEMP2 075.2 (F)

FAN1 STOP
FAN2 OFF

Hour Meter:

PANEL 009919H 51M

I have never heard the fan(s) running for this panel.

While I wait for the Z, as my no lemon warranty grantor's are allowing me to do so, I'd like to repeat something I've stated earlier in this thread. If you put the set on a blank input or pause a DVR in between a commercial and a show or whatever, you will see the red in all its glory. Wait about 30 seconds or so, poof gone, pure black. But start show again and it appears while pixels are active. Thoughts on what is transpiring here? Lends to the "its not then panel" theory.
Edited by mopar426 - 3/14/13 at 6:16pm

The Kuro models have several (2 or 3 IIRC) set up black levels that are brighter than MLL and are used on blank inputs, after the entire screen has been black too long and shuts off, and when first turning on the panel.

MLL is only reached when several conditions are met including having an active input.

AFAIK The reason for this is to activate the exoelectron process that enables stable operation with MLL.

Raising some interesting points here. I like it.

I assume the non-uniformity of the panel is from the deposition process? I would anticipate this being a sputtered or even possibly a plasma deposition process. I guess for the substrate/superstate configuration of a panel of this size these would be the only suitable processes for high uniformity, but would still exhibit peak thickness in the center-zone (nature of the sputtering target location or plasma breakdown/precursor delivery). Driving characteristic would have to account for the variance in panel layer thickness. If this is the case, driving characteristic would likely be the same for the symmetrical area of comparable thickness. Otherwise you would gain red tint through panel degradation both left and right hand sides. I think you summed it up rather well in one sentence "Again, the panel characteristics and the driving voltages must be matched".

At some level we must assume a uniformity of panel otherwise displayed images would be skewed. With the way in which I understand these materials and panels to operate, if the panel had begun to fail, I don't think you would be able to tweak the driving characteristics to compensate for this. It would likely end in non-uniformity issues else where and other defects. Reports back from people are showing no red-tint and great calibration results. These eagle eyed people are likely to spot post tweak defects if they were able to spot the tint. Most likely people of perfection, hence owning a Pioneer in the first place.

I appreciate all the characteristic regarding ageing and initial wear of these panel. I would anticipate the bedding in time would typically be around the first few hundred hours for the plasma and likely be fairly stable in 1,000th hours. Its pretty pathetic to produce a panel that is only able on average to produce a stable image for the first few thousand hours giving its expected lifetime. I note I said 1% which is not right in the previous comment, but I think 100,000 hours is approximate lifetime.

The information with regards to the location of the tint is just a collection of what people have reported, and seems to be fairly consistent. I see over on the UK forum's they have started to take a survey of information about these panel. I wonder whether this will give any more information? I'll copy it over here for interest.

I like the points you are raising here xrox, keep them coming, good to be kept on your toes. Can I ask, are you of a technical/scientific background?

Possibly awaits the electron avalanche to initiate the process, then reduces the discharge voltage to stabilise the plasma current. Or something like that, pretty tired at the moment to think straight.

I have made a thread for the data collection. Borrowed the information from the AVForums. Here's the link for everyone; http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463416/pioneer-kuro-9th-gen-service-menu-settings

Hi!

I am not sure if you (metallicaband) are still following this thread but anyways..
I have the european version lx5090 and I realized that my set has exactly the same voltage values as yours, except for RSTP which is at 001.

I discovered the same problem with decreasing YKNOFSAD from 128 to 80: Blotches on blank screen just before the screen turns itself of.

Did you manage to solve this issue? Maybe there is a way to adjust YKNOFS1, 3 and 4 independently?

Best regards
Andreas Nordin

Pictures taken with YKNOFSAD: 128 vs 80 5090_128_1.jpg 289k .jpg file 5090_80_1.jpg 271k .jpg file

So it sounds like there's a bunch of theories as to what causes the reddish blacks, but are there concrete answers? And is there an actual fix to the problem?

Could this be the reason why my 151 color temp has a green push when my room gets warm? Image retention gets crazy too. In normal room temperature and below everything is fine. Weird.

Really?


Never heard of this before tbh.


Imagine retention - the voltage driving your panel could be incredibly off.


Kuro's with all the hours on them as nowadays should not have serious image retention issues.


Your screen sounds very faulty indeed

Sure...


But it won't be Pioneer who would fix it. They basically pretend the issue is normal.


A qualified person could fix it for you.


Or yourself, but it's a lot of hassle with more than one way and inconsistency due to different ageing of the phosphor. There unfortunately isn't a one fixes all set of settings.


Definitely asking a qualified/experienced professional would be the best bet if warranty wasn't a concern anymore imho.

I'd actually like to sell the unit in the coming months. Not sure what is worse in that case, having reddish blacks or a voided warranty. Of course, if the warranty is non-transferable that that's a moot point.

What would the voltage do if it was messed up?

I don't really know what the problem is. Sometimes, for example, when an image is on screen of a person and i change to a blank input to get a full black screen, i can the ghosting of the person. Like a lot.

Right now the room is pretty cool so no green push. I dread the coming warm months. lol.

Hope whoever buys it doesn't mind a red tint - perhaps you could advertise it as a limited edition 'Kuro Rouge'


A very world famous Kuro calibrator on these forums could probably fix it for you, then calibrate it afterwards. Which would be like having a new tv.


But if you have made your mind up to sell then that's that i guess, but warranty with these Pioneers isn't as relevant as other manufacturers makes - the build and quality of components means they are built to last. Chances are a Kuro a few years old (will probably) last longer than a new tv today. They aren't made/built like these anymore and never will be, unless talking about pro plasmas.

Don't need to worry much about overly warm weather here in Scotland/UK :laugh:


Have you had your 151 calibrated saprano ?, i can't remember. :Edit: No worries, just realised no after reading a very recent post on another Kuro thread.


Can cause sparkles,retention, "red tint" and colour issues etc
Edited by Stu03 - 3/25/13 at 9:55am

Should I buy a Kuro or a ST60?

Sounds like Kuro set doesn't last but a few years before falling apart

I'm sorry can you elaborate

You are assuming any calibrator on here can fix it. I have emailed numerous "world famous" calibrators and not one could guarantee they could eliminate the red tint. Not worth paying someone $400 for a maybe but not sure..

Eh... I am not assuming anything.


I didn't say (any) calibrator could or would.


I never posted these words.

How would you notice the difference between the red tint and the normal purple idle luminance glow D-Nice was talking about?

I don't think i have the red tint, but i do notice a very faint purple-ish color around the screen. The middle of the TV is normal in color. It's definitely not distracting but something you can notice if you pay attention hard. This is with a full black screen. Regular content is perfect.

So i'm good right?
Edited by saprano - 4/10/13 at 9:36pm