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Official Pioneer Kuro Reddish Tint Problem Thread - Page 37

post #1081 of 2557
To clarify, I have not had my panel swapped out. Only the Y, Logic and Main Boards.

I like the heat theory at the edges. I can add (guess) that since heat rises the pixels at the top of the panel are in a more uniformed theater as those in the center, hence they display only a 1" fade to black from the top edge down than the 3" fade to black from the bottom edge up.

Further, if voltage adjustments are being made by the driving side over time to compensate for age, who is dictating age other than the set's internal clock(s)? Is there data and/or measurements given back from the panel, or other, to dictate age or is is just a clock with an alarm that goes off at 10,000 hours? Or does it start at 1000 hours and decays from that point to were 10,000 hours starts exhibiting the red tint but the set itself doesn't know its doing such?

If said adjustments are being made, can we assume they are being made uniformly across every pixel because every pixel on the board was born the same day and, determined by the clock(s), are as old as the next?

While this uniform adjustment is occurring and compensating for the majority, those at the edges who need more help, or less, are the ones suffering. A manual adjustment of say the VOLYKNOFSA from 128 downward could then correct the edge issues yet create a potential mess in the field. Was its initial level @ 128 or was it more or less. Does anyone even know?
post #1082 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by metallicaband View Post

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's an easy problem to fix though, trying to fix it brings a whole bunch of issues that you'll have to go through trials and errors trying to eliminate them if that's even possible, will probably even require further tweaking as time progresses. It's annoying as hell.

I too got a new 500M not long ago, but I really need a larger set by now, 50" just doesn't cut it anymore. PS4 should be here by the end of the year and I hope there will be a nice large set that I can get by then or till mid 2014 at most, Kuro's PQ set some very high standards and I won't settle for something that doesn't at least match it.

65" set that matches the Kuro's PQ but produces even better blacks during low contrast scenes would be perfect, I honesty don't care much for 4K in a display panel because I'd like to have that on a 120"+ projector screen instead to actually see the resolution improvement.


Thing is.

I don't think tweaks (on their own) is the way to do it.

Pioneer in Germany reset and retweaked for a guy a few years ago. Probably for a good reason - ageing that has taken place previously the most likley candidate probably.

It's unlikely they would have sent back a panel with artefacts.

Yes bigger is better - but for me in a smallish bedroom sitting 5ft (average) sometimes closer sometimes a bit further 50" is plenty big enough for my surroundings otherwise i wouldn't bother. And well - it's a 500 after all wink.gif

PS4/720 is hopefully going to produce some 'real' 1080p gaming. Can't wait. And being sat at the usual 5ft ish distance - 4K 0MLL OLED, 51" to 55" screen size will be big enough to appreciate 4K. As long as my eyes don't fail me in the next five years anyway that is :laugh:
post #1083 of 2557
A guy on the UK version of this made an extremely good point - that there has been an example of a brand new panel replacement for this issue. I can remember reading it myself a good while back.

And without tweaks - the tint returned within ten minutes.

People are replacing components left, right, and centre with no change.

It's looking pretty tasty for a driving/algorithm issue.

New panel = Reset of pulse and hours regardless (or should)

I feel genuinely for people who have/had this issue with no (real) help. These displays cost a lot of money and it's a bitter pill
post #1084 of 2557
Mopar246

I posted this on the UK version not too long ago. It's from an older review, thermal imaging. I can't remember exactly what contrast used in the review was but perhaps it was around 35 and probably Pure mode. It explains i guess a lot of heat generated through voltage driving through the YSUS/drive component board. And down that side where the tint usually begins top right corner down the right hand side. But it doesn't really explain why the "tint" moves along the bottom edge and across the whole display eventually i suppose. But one thing is certain (pre reset) (tweaks only reductions) eliminates the red tint down that side when a couple or one voltage is lowered.
post #1085 of 2557
Makes me wonder why my fans never turn on??? When I bought mine, I actually purchased two which went to another family member . He does not have this issue and by comparison is no were near the 12,000 hours and his fans don't turn on either.rolleyes.gif
post #1086 of 2557
I bought a PRO-150FD during 2007, which appears to have no "red tint" issue.

I just checked the service menu, which returned these values:

Temperature:

TEMP1 102.0 (F)
TEMP2 075.2 (F)

FAN1 STOP
FAN2 OFF

Hour Meter:

PANEL 009919H 51M

I have never heard the fan(s) running for this panel.
post #1087 of 2557
While I wait for the Z, as my no lemon warranty grantor's are allowing me to do so, I'd like to repeat something I've stated earlier in this thread. If you put the set on a blank input or pause a DVR in between a commercial and a show or whatever, you will see the red in all its glory. Wait about 30 seconds or so, poof gone, pure black. But start show again and it appears while pixels are active. Thoughts on what is transpiring here? Lends to the "its not then panel" theory.
Edited by mopar426 - 3/14/13 at 6:16pm
post #1088 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by mopar426 View Post

While I wait for the Z, as my no lemon warranty grantor's are allowing me to do so, I'd like to repeat something I've started earlier in this thread. If you put the set on a blank input or pause a DVR in between a commercial and a show or whatever, you will see the red in all its glory. Wait about 30 seconds or so, poof gone, pure black. But start show again and it appears while pixels are active. Thoughts on what is transpiring here? Lends to the "its not then panel" theory.
The Kuro models have several (2 or 3 IIRC) set up black levels that are brighter than MLL and are used on blank inputs, after the entire screen has been black too long and shuts off, and when first turning on the panel.

MLL is only reached when several conditions are met including having an active input.

AFAIK The reason for this is to activate the exoelectron process that enables stable operation with MLL.
post #1089 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Very well may be the case. My response was not to argue the cause of the red tint but to point out that the driving voltages and physical panel affect each other. Your post suggested they did not.
Not necessarily. The material thickness does vary across the panel (on purpose in some cases). Combine that with some very tight voltage thresholds and you can get unwanted non-uniformities. The KURO models had an ovel shape to the black level due to this phenomenon IIRC (see below). It can also cause non-uniformities in color as well as the RGB have seperate threshold

KURO black level non-uniformity profile


Poor assumption IMO. Again, the panel characteristics and the driving voltages must be matched. If either shift an image quality issue can arise. If the panel shifts then obviously tweeking the voltages (either manually or automatically) can solve the problem. Especially with regards to exoelectrons (priming). Don't assume the non-uniformity excludes this phenomenon. The thresholds can be tight.
Not equal at all. This is much greater evidence that the driving voltages may have shifted. But not proof.
If you look at discharge characteristics over panel usage time (found in patent literature) you will see the greatest changes happen in the beginning.

Raising some interesting points here. I like it.

I assume the non-uniformity of the panel is from the deposition process? I would anticipate this being a sputtered or even possibly a plasma deposition process. I guess for the substrate/superstate configuration of a panel of this size these would be the only suitable processes for high uniformity, but would still exhibit peak thickness in the center-zone (nature of the sputtering target location or plasma breakdown/precursor delivery). Driving characteristic would have to account for the variance in panel layer thickness. If this is the case, driving characteristic would likely be the same for the symmetrical area of comparable thickness. Otherwise you would gain red tint through panel degradation both left and right hand sides. I think you summed it up rather well in one sentence "Again, the panel characteristics and the driving voltages must be matched".

At some level we must assume a uniformity of panel otherwise displayed images would be skewed. With the way in which I understand these materials and panels to operate, if the panel had begun to fail, I don't think you would be able to tweak the driving characteristics to compensate for this. It would likely end in non-uniformity issues else where and other defects. Reports back from people are showing no red-tint and great calibration results. These eagle eyed people are likely to spot post tweak defects if they were able to spot the tint. Most likely people of perfection, hence owning a Pioneer in the first place.

I appreciate all the characteristic regarding ageing and initial wear of these panel. I would anticipate the bedding in time would typically be around the first few hundred hours for the plasma and likely be fairly stable in 1,000th hours. Its pretty pathetic to produce a panel that is only able on average to produce a stable image for the first few thousand hours giving its expected lifetime. I note I said 1% which is not right in the previous comment, but I think 100,000 hours is approximate lifetime.

The information with regards to the location of the tint is just a collection of what people have reported, and seems to be fairly consistent. I see over on the UK forum's they have started to take a survey of information about these panel. I wonder whether this will give any more information? I'll copy it over here for interest.

I like the points you are raising here xrox, keep them coming, good to be kept on your toes. Can I ask, are you of a technical/scientific background?
post #1090 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

The Kuro models have several (2 or 3 IIRC) set up black levels that are brighter than MLL and are used on blank inputs, after the entire screen has been black too long and shuts off, and when first turning on the panel.

MLL is only reached when several conditions are met including having an active input.

AFAIK The reason for this is to activate the exoelectron process that enables stable operation with MLL.

Possibly awaits the electron avalanche to initiate the process, then reduces the discharge voltage to stabilise the plasma current. Or something like that, pretty tired at the moment to think straight.
post #1091 of 2557
I have made a thread for the data collection. Borrowed the information from the AVForums. Here's the link for everyone; http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463416/pioneer-kuro-9th-gen-service-menu-settings
post #1092 of 2557
Hi!

I am not sure if you (metallicaband) are still following this thread but anyways..
I have the european version lx5090 and I realized that my set has exactly the same voltage values as yours, except for RSTP which is at 001.

I discovered the same problem with decreasing YKNOFSAD from 128 to 80: Blotches on blank screen just before the screen turns itself of.

Did you manage to solve this issue? Maybe there is a way to adjust YKNOFS1, 3 and 4 independently?

Best regards
Andreas Nordin

Pictures taken with YKNOFSAD: 128 vs 80 5090_128_1.jpg 289k .jpg file 5090_80_1.jpg 271k .jpg file
post #1093 of 2557
So it sounds like there's a bunch of theories as to what causes the reddish blacks, but are there concrete answers? And is there an actual fix to the problem?
post #1094 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooldude45 View Post

I would assume that the localisation of electric field is greater at the edge where the components are situated. These area's coincidently show the increased area's of temperature when operating. Elevated temperatures can affect the plasma conditions affecting the discharge parameters. Plasma is the ionization of atoms from a gas molecule, and the increase in temperature and you increase the energy given to the dissociated ions. More energetic ions for a given gas density would affect the electrical parameters within the plasma region and through the plasma.

The panel itself is a physical stack of materials, each owning to a particular property (DBD, TCO, Filters etc). Natural ageing of the panel which results in the degradation of phosphors from plasma ignition. This degradation is assumed to be uniform across the panel with each RGB having an associated decay rate from exposure. Images despite being non-uniform and rapidly altering which would allow us to assume through watching a host of mixed material as we do to age evenly. Only would be experience uneven wear from burn in if the panel was used permanently with a logo in place. In normal operation, nothing should change in the panel composition apart from this natural ageing.

Obtaining the red tint defect is a non-uniform discharge that is localised to the hottest area's of the panel. As the panel is the "non-active" part of the device and is only excited by the "active" driving side, it indicates the driving side of the panel is defective or in abnormal operation. Voltage tweaking has proven this to be the case. If the panel was defective, it would be a permanent feature despite the "active" input, just like burn-in.



Mopar, I assume the fact your panel still exhibits this defect that the appropriate adjustments have not been made (hours/pulse cleared, voltage adjustment etc). It is possibly likely that individual components have memory for storing specific discharge functions. I hope you get it sorted soon. If not the the ZT60 / F8500 are only around the corner, and looks like the F8500 is going to be an excellent set.

Could this be the reason why my 151 color temp has a green push when my room gets warm? Image retention gets crazy too. In normal room temperature and below everything is fine. Weird.
post #1095 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Could this be the reason why my 151 color temp has a green push when my room gets warm? Image retention gets crazy too. In normal room temperature and below everything is fine. Weird.


Really?


Never heard of this before tbh.


Imagine retention - the voltage driving your panel could be incredibly off.


Kuro's with all the hours on them as nowadays should not have serious image retention issues.


Your screen sounds very faulty indeed
post #1096 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watcher12 View Post

So it sounds like there's a bunch of theories as to what causes the reddish blacks, but are there concrete answers? And is there an actual fix to the problem?


Sure...


But it won't be Pioneer who would fix it. They basically pretend the issue is normal.


A qualified person could fix it for you.


Or yourself, but it's a lot of hassle with more than one way and inconsistency due to different ageing of the phosphor. There unfortunately isn't a one fixes all set of settings.


Definitely asking a qualified/experienced professional would be the best bet if warranty wasn't a concern anymore imho.
post #1097 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Sure...


But it won't be Pioneer who would fix it. They basically pretend the issue is normal.


A qualified person could fix it for you.


Or yourself, but it's a lot of hassle with more than one way and inconsistency due to different ageing of the phosphor. There unfortunately isn't a one fixes all set of settings.


Definitely asking a qualified/experienced professional would be the best bet if warranty wasn't a concern anymore imho.

I'd actually like to sell the unit in the coming months. Not sure what is worse in that case, having reddish blacks or a voided warranty. Of course, if the warranty is non-transferable that that's a moot point.
post #1098 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Really?


Never heard of this before tbh.


Imagine retention - the voltage driving your panel could be incredibly off.


Kuro's with all the hours on them as nowadays should not have serious image retention issues.


Your screen sounds very faulty indeed

What would the voltage do if it was messed up?

I don't really know what the problem is. Sometimes, for example, when an image is on screen of a person and i change to a blank input to get a full black screen, i can the ghosting of the person. Like a lot.

Right now the room is pretty cool so no green push. I dread the coming warm months. lol.
post #1099 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watcher12 View Post

I'd actually like to sell the unit in the coming months. Not sure what is worse in that case, having reddish blacks or a voided warranty. Of course, if the warranty is non-transferable that that's a moot point.


Hope whoever buys it doesn't mind a red tint - perhaps you could advertise it as a limited edition 'Kuro Rouge' wink.gif


A very world famous Kuro calibrator on these forums could probably fix it for you, then calibrate it afterwards. Which would be like having a new tv.


But if you have made your mind up to sell then that's that i guess, but warranty with these Pioneers isn't as relevant as other manufacturers makes - the build and quality of components means they are built to last. Chances are a Kuro a few years old (will probably) last longer than a new tv today. They aren't made/built like these anymore and never will be, unless talking about pro plasmas.
post #1100 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

What would the voltage do if it was messed up?

I don't really know what the problem is. Sometimes, for example, when an image is on screen of a person and i change to a blank input to get a full black screen, i can the ghosting of the person. Like a lot.

Right now the room is pretty cool so no green push. I dread the coming warm months. lol.


Don't need to worry much about overly warm weather here in Scotland/UK :laugh:


Have you had your 151 calibrated saprano ?, i can't remember. :Edit: No worries, just realised no after reading a very recent post on another Kuro thread.


Can cause sparkles,retention, "red tint" and colour issues etc
Edited by Stu03 - 3/25/13 at 9:55am
post #1101 of 2557
Should I buy a Kuro or a ST60?

Sounds like Kuro set doesn't last but a few years before falling apart
post #1102 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSIG1001 View Post

Should I buy a Kuro or a ST60?

Sounds like Kuro set doesn't last but a few years before falling apart[/quote



I'm sure there are more than enough threads to discuss Panasonic's - where pink elephants roam and lead balls bounce.
post #1103 of 2557
I'm sorry can you elaborate
post #1104 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Hope whoever buys it doesn't mind a red tint - perhaps you could advertise it as a limited edition 'Kuro Rouge' wink.gif


A very world famous Kuro calibrator on these forums could probably fix it for you, then calibrate it afterwards. Which would be like having a new tv.


But if you have made your mind up to sell then that's that i guess, but warranty with these Pioneers isn't as relevant as other manufacturers makes - the build and quality of components means they are built to last. Chances are a Kuro a few years old (will probably) last longer than a new tv today. They aren't made/built like these anymore and never will be, unless talking about pro plasmas.

You are assuming any calibrator on here can fix it. I have emailed numerous "world famous" calibrators and not one could guarantee they could eliminate the red tint. Not worth paying someone $400 for a maybe but not sure..
post #1105 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by neo22 View Post

You are assuming any calibrator on here can fix it. I have emailed numerous "world famous" calibrators and not one could guarantee they could eliminate the red tint. Not worth paying someone $400 for a maybe but not sure..


Eh... I am not assuming anything.


I didn't say (any) calibrator could or would.


I never posted these words.
post #1106 of 2557
How would you notice the difference between the red tint and the normal purple idle luminance glow D-Nice was talking about?

I don't think i have the red tint, but i do notice a very faint purple-ish color around the screen. The middle of the TV is normal in color. It's definitely not distracting but something you can notice if you pay attention hard. This is with a full black screen. Regular content is perfect.

So i'm good right?
Edited by saprano - 4/10/13 at 9:36pm
post #1107 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

How would you notice the difference between the red tint and the normal purple idle luminance glow D-Nice was talking about?

I don't think i have the red tint, but i do notice a very faint purple-ish color around the screen. The middle of the TV is normal in color. It's definitely not distracting but something you can notice if you pay attention hard. This is with a full black screen. Regular content is perfect.

So i'm good right?

Your issue sounds like the same issue which I had (KRP-500A): a thin stripe of red color at the right edge of the panel, color gaining strength towards the panel edge.

Resetting the pulse counter (page 6 solution) fixed the problem but received pink sparkles as a byproduct. Clearing up those pink sparkles required VOL SUS value change, atm VOL SUS is at 154 (originally 128) where I see no pink sparkles, the rest of the values are at their defaults (same values what other European users have reported). VOL RST P was no help with the pink sparkles.

As far as the original problem goes afterwards a fellow forumer told me that I should have left the pulse counter alone and should have tried changing VOL RST P.
Edited by Maxi_TK96 - 4/15/13 at 3:10am
post #1108 of 2557
It's not a thin stripe. It's a full purple glow with the middle of the screen normal. I'd say about 30% normal.

It definitely isn't deep red like others on here. The purple is very light. So i'm going to go with what D-Nice said most people are experiencing- http://www.avsforum.com/t/1361871/official-pioneer-kuro-reddish-tint-problem-thread/450#post_21333422
post #1109 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxi_TK96 View Post

Your issue sounds like the same issue which I had (KRP-500A): a thin stripe of red color at the right edge of the panel, color gaining strength towards the panel edge.

Resetting the pulse counter (page 6 solution) fixed the problem but received pink sparkles as a byproduct. Clearing up those pink sparkles required VOL SUS value change, atm VOL SUS is at 154 (originally 128) where I see no pink sparkles, the rest of the values are at their defaults (same values what other European users have reported). VOL RST P was no help with the pink sparkles.

As far as the original problem goes afterwards a fellow forumer told me that I should have left the pulse counter alone and should have tried changing VOL RST P.

Hi, are you from the UK?.

The RSTP isn't a fix whoever told you that. All it would do is disguise the tint depending on what your default factory setting for that voltage is/was. If it was one of the lower ones it wouldn't have had enough scope anyway. And the thing about re-setting the reset pulse is it knocks out the previously supposedly accurate algorithms from the factory. Ahem.

But what i mean is by re-setting anything in the menus to do with ageing and things must be re-adjusted again. It's in the service manuals.
Edited by Stu03 - 4/24/13 at 3:24am
post #1110 of 2557
I have a 5080HD with red tint. I just started to research this issue by reading this thread. I noticed one member with 1150HD with VOL RST P = 109. My set has the same value. Last night, reduced RSTP from 109 to 50. I just lowered the value by 5 until there were more sparkle than normal for a dark scene. Yes, the red tint is significantly lowered.

Looking at the service manual for 5080HD:
RSTP=109 is 190V
RSTP=50 is 157V.

It looks like 15% reduction in voltage. I will probably push it back up to RSTP=55 which is 160V and just watch see how it is for the next couple of weeks.

I just found it interesting that both 768P 8G panels had the exact same RSTP which is labeled factory tuned and this value happens to be the "mid" voltage value listed in the service manual. It is like someone got lazy setting this value and just picked the mid one that would work for all panels.
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