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Official Pioneer Kuro Reddish Tint Problem Thread - Page 75

post #2221 of 2557
Thanks , treading carefully sounds good to me!

I'll report back when I get the chance to test things out, prob this weekend!

Thanks again Guy's!
post #2222 of 2557
Another question or 2, whilst I thinking about this....

If the panel has aged and these settings are changed, this would put the panel out of sync?

I'm also wondering does hour meter have any impact on things if it was reset or is it only when the Pulse count is reset?
post #2223 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

Another question or 2, whilst I thinking about this....

If the panel has aged and these settings are changed, this would put the panel out of sync?

I'm also wondering does hour meter have any impact on things if it was reset or is it only when the Pulse count is reset?

I guess we'll find out in due time.
post #2224 of 2557
I am going to try these adjustments again on my 8G Kuro. I had a dabble a few months back to some decent results but put back to default and was going to attempt a reset. Never got around to it because I needed to buy cables etc. I recently bought a 65" VT60 for the main room and have moved my Kuro to the bedroom but since I do most of my bedroom viewing in the dark the red tint is killing me! If it's cool, I'll post my current settings and would love any suggestions you guys can offer smile.gif
post #2225 of 2557
I'm just curious... I've been following this thread off and on, out of curiosity and technical interest.

I recently retired an 8G Kuro, that was bought in June 2008, and which had 21,400 hours on the panel when I took it off the wall.

I'm a moderately critical viewer, and I never saw a hint of reddish tint problem with it. Over all the years, it always had a slight crush of the white detail, and I was never able to resolve that, but I never had any red tint.

Just curious, do different Kuros behave differently? Is it perhaps a function of the source material, and how it affects the algorithms in the firmware? Or is it a function of the individual panel?

Just wondering why mine never did this after 21,400 hours.
post #2226 of 2557
All Kuro's have a voltage issue that affects WTW. I found this out couple of years ago whilst watching a YouTube video and the great Kuro master D-Nice explained that if you are able to reduce contrast control on the (Blu-ray player) by one click then the Kuros are able to resolve the full range all the way up.

I will find the you tube link sometime tomorrow soon as I can and copy and paste the link

I was able to do this on my old 500A with the Denon Blu-ray player - but unfortunately unable to do it with my newish 500M because the PS3 doesn't have fine tuning like contrast control mad.gif

Able to get 95 or so percent by manipulation of source and display by putting the Kuro to output 'AUTO' and DRE LOW. And the PS3 outputting 'Limited' an with "Superwhite" to on
post #2227 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

Very interesting read you guy's, being a calibrator of course I love to tweak myself smile.gif

I may have a dabble at lowering my black level, which is a glow at the moment, no red tint but would love to get a better Mll.

Question is why change YKNOFS 1,3, 4 individually when "A" will change them all in sync anyway, I know when changing "A" it doesn't show the changes in 1,3,4 but wouldn't it be the same or is it because the results are better changing 4 out of synchronisation with 1 and 3?

My current untouched factory settings on a Jan 2009 KRP 600M are ...

VOL SUS 128
VOL OFFSET 68
VOL RST P 043
XPOFS1 105
XPOFS2 63
YKNOFS1 86
YKNOFS3 96
YKNOFS4 143
YKNOFSA 128
REST1ST_KSB 128
REST2ND_KSB 128
YSTL_1SF_KSB 128
YSTL_1SF_HZ 128
XSUS_1ST_B 128
XSUS_2ND_B 128
XSUS_3RD_B 128
YSUS_B 128

The only thing I notice is rst p 043 seems a little high from some of the reports for a 60" and do wonder if it has been set up rushed as has been speculated, any thoughts?

TIA.

It's possible it was set up quickly - it's possible for any 9G, or 9.5 like yours probably is (not just the ones pre Dec 08 that were not rushed IMO) I believe personally and the story goes it was the only volume guaranteed to be set up individually per Kuro plasma.

If it's that high to begin with then it was probably all that was required to get the panel running to factory specifications without lagging or misfires (or black for that size).

But never worry - that is a massive amount of headroom (or) scope for adjustment of that volume control - and that has to be a good thing.

Some have much lower than that by default to begin with = less scope for adjustments.

Pioneer obviously didn't need to lower yours too much for a good couple of reasons smile.gif

The need for a pulse reset with a default number like that will be highly unlikely imo.

It's the people who have a factory default under 10 will be struggling imo - especially if tint was there (reset only city wink.gif)

My default isn't great (13) - but the depth of black is -and grey is super uniform.

But your RSTP at 43...

Happy days :grin:
Edited by Stu03 - 2/19/14 at 5:37pm
post #2228 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

It's possible it was set up quickly - the story goes that RSTP was the only volume guaranteed to be at up individually per Kuro plasma. If it's that high to begin with then it was probably all that was required to get the panel running to factory specifications without lagging or misfires (or black for that size).

But never worry - that is a massive amount of headroom (or) scope for adjustment of that volume control - and that has to be a good thing.

Some have much lower than that by default to begin with = less scope for adjustments.

Pioneer obviously didn't need to lower yours too much for a reason smile.gif

A reset with a number like that will be highly unlikely.

It's the people who have a factory default under 10 will be struggling imo - especially if tint was there (reset only city wink.gif)

My default isn't great (13) - but the depth of black is -and grey is super uniform.

But your RSTP at 43...

Happy days :grin:

One of the reasons why I'm going to try to find a sweet spot for RSTP - reduce black lag and black rain. I'm thinking it will be in the 10-15 range.
post #2229 of 2557
My latest kuro tweaking session consisted of setting everything back to default and manipulating a few voltages individually to see their effects. Below are my findings:

Yknofsa4 has no bearing on black level or black rain. The separation between it and s3 needs to be just right to reduce most magenta sparkles.

Yknofsa3 seems to have the biggest impact on black level, followed closely by rstp. Rstp seemed to reduce red tint and eliminate any glow from black.
Yknofsa3 seems to make blacks more inky. The bad news is that setting these too low causes black rain and lag. The separation between s3 and s4 needs to be just right to reduce magenta sparkles. Increasing rstp eliminated black rain, but i had to raise it to about 11 to eliminate all of it and at that point, the rise in black level was dramatic.

Yknofsa1 has an effect on black level, but not as much as s3 and rstp. In fact, when using the 5% grey window pattern from avshd 709, the rectangle would look brighter when increasing s1. Increasing s1 reduced black rain, but it had to be increased close to factory default to completely eliminate it. At that level, the increase in black level is very noticeable.

Finally, after settling on a good separation between s3 and s4 that eliminated about 90 percent of magebta sparkles, i reduced vol offset to minimum to eliminate the rest of the sparkles. I have 0 sparkles on all patterns. Might be the reason why vol offset is the other voltage that needs to be adjusted after replacing the panel, according to the service manual.

I went through all the recommended patterns that the service manual references for setting up volyknofsad and vol offset and saw no artifacts whatsoever.

Black rain is still there but very minor, as i had to sacrifice some black level to get rid of it. I might go back and tweak rstp, s1 and s3 to eliminate black rain if it becomes bothersome.
Edited by makaveddie81 - 2/20/14 at 1:44am
post #2230 of 2557
How are you testing for black rain? Images on a black field scrolling up shows it the worst. Activating a menu on a black field will show it too.
post #2231 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

It's possible it was set up quickly - it's possible for any 9G, or 9.5 like yours probably is (not just the ones pre Dec 08 that were not rushed IMO) I believe personally and the story goes it was the only volume guaranteed to be set up individually per Kuro plasma.

If it's that high to begin with then it was probably all that was required to get the panel running to factory specifications without lagging or misfires (or black for that size).

But never worry - that is a massive amount of headroom (or) scope for adjustment of that volume control - and that has to be a good thing.

Some have much lower than that by default to begin with = less scope for adjustments.

Pioneer obviously didn't need to lower yours too much for a good couple of reasons smile.gif

The need for a pulse reset with a default number like that will be highly unlikely imo.

It's the people who have a factory default under 10 will be struggling imo - especially if tint was there (reset only city wink.gif)

My default isn't great (13) - but the depth of black is -and grey is super uniform.

But your RSTP at 43...

Happy days :grin:

Cheers mate, makes it all the more interesting, I must start tweaking soon smile.gif

I had a little play with rstp and I think I've seen the black rain on a large scale, feeding a 0% (ire) stimulus, correct me if I'm wrong but when I got into low numbers the panel looked liked it was bleeding black from the top, like someone had poured black paint on it and it was slowly running down the screen, this was jet black, the actual mll was incredibly low but this was even darker - no pixel luminance close up, gave me the impression of being under powered with a very slow discharge response, put it back for now until I get more time with it although I was thinking of waiting until I got another sensor (i1d3) to measure how low I could get as my i1pro struggles below 30% stimulus and my dtp-94 is far too old to confirm accuracy.
post #2232 of 2557
[qorries te name="-Hitman-" url="/t/1361871/official-pioneer-kuro-reddish-tint-problem-thread/2240_40#post_24384657"]
Cheers mate, makes it all the more interesting, I must start tweaking soon smile.gif

I had a little play with rstp and I think I've seen the black rain on a large scale, feeding a 0% (ire) stimulus, correct me if I'm wrong but when I got into low numbers the panel looked liked it was bleeding black from the top, like someone had poured black paint on it and it was slowly running down the screen, this was jet black, the actual mll was incredibly low but this was even darker - no pixel luminance close up, gave me the impression of being under powered with a very slow discharge response, put it back for now until I get more time with it although I was thinking of waiting until I got another sensor (i1d3) to measure how low I could get as my i1pro struggles below 30% stimulus and my dtp-94 is far too old to confirm accuracy.[/quote]

No worries mate.

What did you lower it to? - changing values with the remote whilst viewing internal patterns - pressing enter - you can see real world results... Although of course the values won't be saved until the monitor is put to standby after pressing enter when values been changed... Any confusion at all leave alone for ten minutes with factory mode still displayed - and the adjustments made on screen cancel themselves out to default or what they were. Like cfan has said in the past - best to use remote rather than commands - as remote method can be undone unlike a confusing incorrect press on the keyboard sent to the CPU.


Keep in touch
Edited by Stu03 - 2/20/14 at 11:03am
post #2233 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by VidPro View Post

How are you testing for black rain? Images on a black field scrolling up shows it the worst. Activating a menu on a black field will show it too.

I'm activating menus on a black field.
post #2234 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_ice View Post

I saw the same effect when i raised s1.
Rasing s1 changes gamma near black but only to one point.
Over that point nothing was changed.

I had s1 at 112 before and thats outside the adjustment range.
Rasied it to 121 and the details near black got cleaner and brighter.

To low s1 and you will get dirty details with a red tone to them near black.
Just put up a full rgb test pattern for the lower blacklevels and you will see what s1 does when changing it.

download original



If someone change s1 a new gamma calibration is almost a must.

Good info . So I essentially need to find a value where the rectangle stop getting brighter and stick to that value?
post #2235 of 2557
Makaveddie81 - that Combi pattern 7, 72/75 VS 1&2 image along with accompanying explanation post on the reset guide thread you requested with default FS4 misfires
post #2236 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Makaveddie81 - that Combi pattern 7, 72/75 VS 1&2 image along with accompanying explanation post on the reset guide thread you requested with default FS4 misfires

But they go away (most of them in my case) by increasing S3 or reducing S4 correct?

I also had to reduce offset to get rid of the remaining misfires.
Edited by makaveddie81 - 2/20/14 at 12:23pm
post #2237 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

No worries mate.

What did you lower it to? - changing values with the remote whilst viewing internal patterns - pressing enter - you can see real world results... Although of course the values won't be saved until the monitor is put to standby after pressing enter when values been changed... Any confusion at all leave alone for ten minutes with factory mode still displayed - and the adjustments made on screen cancel themselves out to default or what they were. Like cfan has said in the past - best to use remote rather than commands - as remote method can be undone unlike a confusing incorrect press on the keyboard sent to the CPU.


Keep in touch

Can't remember, it was late biggrin.gif

I prefer to use the remote as you say you can't keep a logical track otherwise, I've not tried the internal patterns yet but will do so to track any anomalies.

Cheers mate!
post #2238 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Makaveddie81 - that Combi pattern 7, 72/75 VS 1&2 image along with accompanying explanation post on the reset guide thread you requested with default FS4 misfires

Why use the non 60vs modes?


I don't think the others are a true representation of a 24/25p feed hence the detailed service info stating to use 60vs, which to me would be the medium of all frame rates, if you find anomalies with the others I bet you won't reproduce them with a HD feed of the same FR.
post #2239 of 2557
Thought I'd add what I've found to the pool of knowledge. My panel is a AU 600M with 2 pulse resets and approx 8000 total hours. Never noticed the red tint on mine, has always been about keeping the blacks as black as possible for me.

Currently at 150hrs after second reset and I have S1 at 101 which is 15 above original. And RSTP at 15 down from 18. The rise in S1 was necessary to eliminate magenta misfires when pixels were switching from black to dim colours (ie. 5-15% gray). Any more and the black levels would be affected. Important thing I found with this was that none of the internal patterns would show these missfires. Only showed when viewing the right material.

Not sure if the reduction in RSTP is necessary yet, just playing with different things at the moment.

Also found the best pattern for detecting most magenta missfires is the combi pattern with the moving white crosshatch on black background, can't remember the exact number at the moment.

My next project is to play with the blue degradation correction setting RBL. As every time I reset the pulse meter and calibrate I need more blue high to achieve white balance, currently around +22 which doesn't seem normal. Was about +5 orignaly and about +15 after first reset.
post #2240 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyskip View Post

My next project is to play with the blue degradation correction setting RBL.

i have tried those as well
i couldnt see any saturation/ color luminance changes at all.
post #2241 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyskip View Post

Thought I'd add what I've found to the pool of knowledge. My panel is a AU 600M with 2 pulse resets and approx 8000 total hours. Never noticed the red tint on mine, has always been about keeping the blacks as black as possible for me.

Currently at 150hrs after second reset and I have S1 at 101 which is 15 above original. And RSTP at 15 down from 18. The rise in S1 was necessary to eliminate magenta misfires when pixels were switching from black to dim colours (ie. 5-15% gray). Any more and the black levels would be affected. Important thing I found with this was that none of the internal patterns would show these missfires. Only showed when viewing the right material.

Not sure if the reduction in RSTP is necessary yet, just playing with different things at the moment.

Also found the best pattern for detecting most magenta missfires is the combi pattern with the moving white crosshatch on black background, can't remember the exact number at the moment.

My next project is to play with the blue degradation correction setting RBL. As every time I reset the pulse meter and calibrate I need more blue high to achieve white balance, currently around +22 which doesn't seem normal. Was about +5 orignaly and about +15 after first reset.

try combi pattern 10 . it will show magenta misfires,
if there are any
post #2242 of 2557
how to you access the patterns? Where do I need to go inside the sm or what are the rs232 commands?
post #2243 of 2557
it's in the service menu, just arrow down with the remote , it's is about 10 pages down , combi mask pattern , pattern 10 is a moving pattern with black and grey boxes separated by white lines
post #2244 of 2557
Given that I could only get close to bezel blending blacks on the 5% and 10% grey window patterns from the avshd709 calibration disc by lowering S1, S3 and S4 to 20 below the minimum factory specification, I decided to reset my display.

After the reset, all I had to was set RSTP to 1 to get bezel blending blacks on those two patterns. I did not have to adjust any other voltage. I am not experiencing any artifacts on any internal pattern or real world content. I went through all the internal patterns with no issues whatsoever. No black rain, no IR, no lazy blacks, no misfires or trails. My KURO has never looked this good. Plus I have TONS of headroom on S1, S3 and S4, since they are at factory default.

Below is the process that I applied.

1. Set all voltages to factory default. For 101-FD and KRP-500M, these can be found on page 195 of the service manual. For the rest of the models, it is also located around page 195 (give or take 3 pages).

2. Execute the below commands.

CHM
CHR
CNG
CMT
CPC
CPD
CPM
CSD

3. Turn off KURO and unplug for 5 minutes.

4. Plug back and turn on KURO.

5. Set RSTP to 1.

6. Done.

7. I performed this procedure 3 times on my display to make sure it worked. It seems like the 3rd reset gave me the best results, though it might just be me.

I know everyone that has reset their displays have had to play with almost all voltages to get an artifact free image. Am I the only one who has set the voltages to factory default prior to the reset? If not, then perhaps the fact that my panel had only about 900 hours at the time of reset is the reason why my reset was headache free.

Thoughts?

PG_ICE, since you are always down to reset your display (and are quite the expert at it), can you give this method a whirl an report back? Thanks in advance.

I have attached captures from before the reset, after the reset and after adjustment for your perusal. These were generated with my Kuro Kapture program that is still in development that captures all of the KURO's regular and service menu settings.

P.S. This thing is looking better and better as time passes, I can't tell the bezel and screen apart on an all black field!

BeforeReset.txt 8k .txt file

AfterReset.txt 8k .txt file

AfterAdjustment.txt 8k .txt file
post #2245 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post

try combi pattern 10 . it will show magenta misfires,
if there are any

Yeah combi 10 was the pattern I was referring to. Although this pattern does not show all missfires. Even when you clear this pattern you could still have missfires when pixels transition from black to low luminance.
post #2246 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

Why use the non 60vs modes?


I don't think the others are a true representation of a 24/25p feed hence the detailed service info stating to use 60vs, which to me would be the medium of all frame rates, if you find anomalies with the others I bet you won't reproduce them with a HD feed of the same FR.

Hi,

The misfires were visible on COMBI pattern 7 at 60vs also (I mentioned this earlier on a thread) but once FS4 was reduced by ten on my otherwise untouched display it cleared up the misfires on 72 1&2vs and 75 1&2vs 99.9 percent. But at the same time cleared up 100% of the misfires on 60vs.

That pattern was 100% clear on 50vs and 60p (before) a slight lowering of that one voltage anyway.

Unfortunately there is no mention that I can find anywhere in service manuals that misfires are normal on that pattern with these driving modes.

But I feel happy that these aren't there now - if for no other reason than logic says misfires on the right upper side of Pioneers own internal test pattern doesn't "seem" normal to me.

If you get a chance could you look at combi pattern 7 at different vs and see if its on the 60" too please mate...

Be interesting to find out if it is or not
Edited by Stu03 - 2/22/14 at 2:37am
post #2247 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Hi,

The misfires were visible on COMBI pattern 7 at 60vs also (I mentioned this earlier on a thread) but once FS4 was reduced by ten on my otherwise untouched display it cleared up the misfires on 72 1&2vs and 75 1&2vs 99.9 percent. But at the same time cleared up 100% of the misfires on 60vs.

That pattern was 100% clear on 50vs and 60p (before) a slight lowering of that one voltage anyway.

Unfortunately there is no mention that I can find anywhere in service manuals that misfires are normal on that pattern with these driving modes.

But I feel happy that these aren't there now - if for no other reason than logic says misfires on the right upper side of Pioneers own internal test pattern doesn't "seem" normal to me.

If you get a chance could you look at combi pattern 7 at different vs and see if its on the 60" too please mate...

Be interesting to find out if it is or not

No Problem mate,

Checked C-pattern 7 on all modes and they're all normal, no anomalies and all clear!
post #2248 of 2557
Quote:
name="-Hitman-" url="/t/1361871/official-pioneer-kuro-reddish-tint-problem-thread/2240_40#post_24393156"]
No Problem mate,

Checked C-pattern 7 on all modes and they're all normal, no anomalies and all clear!

Wow - that is cool.

Wonder if that is significant in the way set up in the factory buddy...

Good it's clean though by default
post #2249 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post

No Problem mate,

Checked C-pattern 7 on all modes and they're all normal, no anomalies and all clear!

What exactly did you do to your display?
post #2250 of 2557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Wow - that is cool.

Wonder if that is significant in the way set up in the factory buddy...

Good it's clean though by default


Does look like quite a bit of margin to play with mate, could be also a beefer PSU?
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