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The "I Want it Done" Build Thread

post #1 of 127
9/21/11 at 8:00pm
Thread Starter 
Hi everyone - I've posted several times to get input on designs and various items of concern, but I am ready to get my build started.

Here is the layout:



Existing Room:

I have spent hours researching and planning here, mostly around:

1. Screen Size
2. Chairs - narrow but comfortable for my 6' 3" frame
3. Projector throw and placement
4. Fabric wall techniques
5. Sound containment
6. Acoustic Treatment
7. Riser Height for 2nd row of chairs in a low ceiling room (6' 9")

All of the planning got me to a decent point on all of those things, but I really felt like I needed to get some stuff here and test it out before I spent any more time worrying about it.

So, I ordered a whole bunch of stuff and rigged it up temporarily. This has been great for learning because alot of problems/questions I was struggling with are solved, but some others are going to be more challenging.

Here is the room:


Stuff to go in it









I rigged up the Epson 8700 on top of a few boxes shooting on a white sheet and the speakers with my Onkyo SR707 temporarily and watched several hours of a few different movies (Star Wars I & IV, Avatar, Miracle)...

HOLY CRAP - love it! I could probably watch this and be happy for months. I knew this might happen...

Anyway... here's what I've learned on my main issues:

1. Screen Size - I thought 106" might be the max given the room size, but I found that I was VERY comfortable with around that size and wanting it bigger. WAF high on going bigger too. Son AF very very high . Will go up to around 120" depending on the riser issue coming up. Also very comfortable I will be able to move my chairs up from the 10' viewing distance shown in the layout.

2. Chairs - narrow but comfortable for my 6' 3" frame. Palliser Pacifcos are AWESOME. Got the power recline which is a million times better than manual. LOVE THEM. WAF high. Also, was worried about the aisle room on the right side, but no problems! One of the reasons this chair is so good for me is that it has a 43" height, which fits me well... See riser issue coming up.

3. Projector throw and placement - Epson 8700 did great with max zoom in my temp rig, absolutely stunned at how great the picture looked on a wrinkly sheet held up by a few push pins with hardly any tension. My brother could not believe how good it looked when I showed it off to him. I think I will be just fine with the throw since my temp rig was closer than any mounting position I'd choose permanently. The placement on the ceiling might be a challenge with the riser issue. Sense a trend here

4. Fabric wall techniques - got a case of OC703 FRK 1" from a local distributor (cheap too ) . Based on research here, I think I am going to be just fine running vertical furring strips, placing OC in between up to ear level (backing out) and poly batting above that. Will cover with GOM Anchorage Goose. Based on heavy research here I think I have a good staple hiding technique worked out.

5. Sound containment - was very worried about rattling the house down with the new Polks. Now from what I've read here, some of you are probably looking down on/laughing at my speakers (Monitor 40s for L/R, CS1 center, PSW10 sub). I will be pairing with Monoprice 6.5" In Ceiling speakers for 7.1 surrounds (don't have them yet though). Coming from my Sony HTIAB set up I've had for 10 years in which the L/R and surrounds were 5 inches tall by 2 inches wide, this is a major upgrade. Also, I am not even close to an audiophile, more like audio neophyte. The sound coming out of $270 worth of these new Polks blew me away. That said, great news here... WAF on the noise level upstairs was VERY HIGH. She was doing work and wasn't bothered AT ALL. This is great news as I can forget about lots of drywalling/insulation to stop noise. I know I may need to consider keeping noise OUT, but based on several hours of watching I think I'm OK. I do need to run the AC unit during a movie to see if that interferes too much.


6. Acoustic Treatment - as mentioned above, will be using OC703 FRK 1" (they only carry FRK) up to ear level (backing facing out) covered in GOM around side and back walls. Screen wall will be covered in OC703 as well, was just going to use 1" there but considering 2" since that wall backs up the furnace room. Found a supplier close who is cheap, and picked up a single case to work out some test panels with the furring strips.


7. Riser Height for 2nd row of chairs in a low ceiling room (6' 9") - this feels like my stickiest problem. The comfort of the Pacificos at 43" combined with tall people like me seating in the front row is creating a big problem here. I am looking at a riser in the 12 - 16" inch range if I want a screen between 106" and 120". That big of a riser is a problem with a 6' 9" ceiling. I am thinking of a double riser to mitigate some of the headroom challenges, but there is no way around people needing to either duck when getting seated or having viewing obstructions from the front. I will be using ceiling tiles from Ceilume in the existing drop ceiling so hand banging won't be a serious issue (they are paper thin), but it's kind of a crappy experience.

Overall, I am pretty pumped about how things are shaping up. After watching 20 mins of Miracle, my wife's comment was "I just want it done!", which was a excellent sign considering I just spent half my budget on the stuff already here. Guess I will have to oblige!

My immediate next steps are to get started on making furring strips for the walls and get the acoustic treatments in and run wiring and set up my temporary rack in my unfinished area (will build a nice one opening to theater later). From there the plan is a bit fuzzier but I think I'll move to the ceiling and get can lights installed, projector location finalized and mounted, install new ceiling tiles, build screen wall, build riser, install all fabric.

We have alot of people coming over for Christmas so I have a somewhat tentative/aggressive/foolish goal of trying to have it all done by then. It's something to shoot for but probably not going to happen. But I think I can get enough done to at least wow a few people

Please give me any reactions/criticism ideas - I'll do my best to keep posting progress.
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post #2 of 127
9/21/11 at 8:06pm
Thread Starter 
Here are the links to my previous posts that go in depth on several of my issues:

Overall Design Concept & Feedback

Question on Seating - was considering Rialto at the time

Insulation Questions

Fabric Walls on top of panel?

My plan to attach fabric & hide staples

Project Plan
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post #3 of 127
9/22/11 at 6:34am
Looks like you are going to have a great theater for a reasonable amount of cash. I'm sure the Polk bookshelves will suite your purposes just fine, but I probably would have put a few more dollars into the subwoofer. Easily upgraded I suppose if you find the need. Nice to see something other than the AE4000 projector used. You will be amazed at how much better the image looks when you actually get the screen up.
Great to have the wife's support and not having to sound proof the room will likely save you more money, time and headache then you could imagine. I'm sure you have followed builds as I have and noticed that 3/4 of the effort seems to go into sound proofing.
Your ceiling height is definately going to be a challenge. The projector has a fair amount of horizontal lens shift, which may help get it off to the side so only one "cheap seat" is affected.
Good luck. I'll be interested to see how this procedes.
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post #4 of 127
9/22/11 at 6:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

Your ceiling height is definately going to be a challenge. The projector has a fair amount of horizontal lens shift, which may help get it off to the side so only one "cheap seat" is affected.
Good luck. I'll be interested to see how this procedes.

Thanks David... I hadn't thought of your idea... mount the projector off center, say to the left side above the back row and use the lens shift to center it? I was thinking I'd mount it almost directly above the back row center seat in such a way that no one sitting down/getting up would hit their head on it, and that no one walking behind would hit it because of the bar that I'm putting behind the rear row.
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post #5 of 127
9/22/11 at 6:46pm
One other comment I would like to make is be careful not to over deaden your room. If I read correctly, you plan on covering every wall with absorbing material (OC703 front and sides low, poly bat above). Coupled with carpeting you might have a very dead, unatural sounding room. To test the effect play music you know then start hanging heavy quilts up on the walls. You will get to a point where it sounds better (rich & full). A couple quilts more and the sound starts to become dead, almost like it is playing through a thin wall in the next room.
Given the amount of research you have obviously done already you have likely taken this into consideration.
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post #6 of 127
9/22/11 at 6:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

To test the effect play music you know then start hanging heavy quilts up on the walls. You will get to a point where it sounds better (rich & full). A couple quilts more and the sound starts to become dead, almost like it is playing through a thin wall in the next room.
Given the amount of research you have obviously done already you have likely taken this into consideration.

I actually had not thought of doing this exercise... Should I hang the quilts at ear level and work my around the entire room?

Checking out your build thread, looks amazing - especially the woodwork!
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post #7 of 127
9/22/11 at 8:41pm
Great looking design. I'm really happy to see this because the area that I plan on turning into a theater (hopefully next year) is almost exactly the same size. It should be just under 10' wide though. Based on what you've put together do you think there would be an issue with 3 seats per row?
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post #8 of 127
9/22/11 at 10:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelton325 View Post

I actually had not thought of doing this exercise... Should I hang the quilts at ear level and work my way around the entire room?

Disclaimer: I'm not a professional sound engineer, but I certainly have done a lot of reading and pesonal experimentation over the years. Even so, if someone with the initials DE and several thousand posts chirps in you can pretty much ignore every thing I have said.

Hanging quilts at ear level...Yup. That's about it. Begin with one queen sized quilt folded in half lengthwise on each side wall, parallel with the floor starting a couple feet back from the front speakers with a third quilt tacked unfolded on the rear wall. This should produce a noticable improvement in sound. I can't tell if your ceiling tiles are reflective to high frequencies or not (most are). If reflective I would also experiment with the ceiling in front of the speakers. Listen to some well recorded music (preferably with strong vocals) from the front row seats, before and after the changes. Go to extremes (no blankets & way too many) then come back again until you find something that sounds the best. I bet you will not end up with every square inch of your walls covered. This technique might seem unprofessional but it sure makes it easy to do an "A/B" comparison simply by hanging or removing a couple of blankets.

In my theater I was all gung-ho to smother my screen wall in sound absorption like so many other theaters until I tacked up a cheap fiberfill quilt and immediately heard the life get sucked out of my sound system.

Theoretically you want to focus on direct reflections from the main speakers. With 3 speakers up front, 6 potential seating positions and 4 direct reflective surfaces (side walls, back wall and ceiling) you can see that the science of sound treatment gets very complex. Throw in bass traps and sound difusers and you have a real mess. Thankfully its more of a "horseshoes and hand grenades" scenario...close is generally good enough.
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post #9 of 127
9/22/11 at 10:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelton325 View Post

Checking out your build thread, looks amazing - especially the woodwork!

Thanks for the compliment. I really enjoyed the process, am totally happy with how it turned out, and more importantly, the family uses it on a daily basis. One thing I certainy wish though is that I had your Epson 8700UB in there. The little Acer puts up a nice picture for the money but the Epson on my smallish screen would be absolutley amazing.

Good luck with your build and let us know how the experimentation goes.
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post #10 of 127
9/23/11 at 4:53am
If your title is serious "I want it done". None here are qualified to help.

Looking good so far!
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post #11 of 127
9/23/11 at 7:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

If your title is serious "I want it done". None here are qualified to help.

Looking good so far!

Now if the title was "I want it almost done." we would all be experts.
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post #12 of 127
9/23/11 at 8:58am
Pretty convenient having a door to the back access of your screen wall and hardly any outside light to deal with from the get go! I'm working in a similar small space, 10' wide 21 long. Looking forward to following your progress.
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post #13 of 127
9/23/11 at 8:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trancemitr View Post

Great looking design. I'm really happy to see this because the area that I plan on turning into a theater (hopefully next year) is almost exactly the same size. It should be just under 10' wide though. Based on what you've put together do you think there would be an issue with 3 seats per row?

Thanks!

To answer your question, I took a "before" shot with my current room width of 10' 8" and my 97" wide row of 3, and an "after" shot subtracting 9" and simulating a 9' 11" room:

BEFORE


AFTER


As a fellow small space builder, I wish I could tell you "no problem, it's fine", but it was a little uncomfortable at the simulated 9' 11" width. I looked long and hard at chairs before settling on my Pacificos, which are decently narrow. If you can find something more narrow I'd probably recommend it. You may want to tape out the dimensions of your rows of chairs to get a feeling and maybe stack some boxes on the edge to get the feel for the width.
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post #14 of 127
9/23/11 at 9:07pm
Thread Starter 
First trip to Lowes to actually buy supplies... lots of electrical including the Lutron remote control lighting switch, can lights, and some spray paint for the drop ceiling rails. The projector mount also came in (Atdec TH-WH-PJ-FM Telehook Universal Projector Flush Mount).

Also had a FUN Friday night cracking a few cold ones and watching a few movies on the temp sheet. So far I've spent 100x more time in the last 3 days watching movies than actually doing anything to move the build forward.

Goal for this weekend is to get can lights installed and light switches wired and mounted. Going to Ohio State game tomorrow (as always) so that will wipe out Saturday - we'll see if I can accomplish my goal on Sunday.





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post #15 of 127
9/23/11 at 9:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

Disclaimer: I'm not a professional sound engineer, but I certainly have done a lot of reading and pesonal experimentation over the years. Even so, if someone with the initials DE and several thousand posts chirps in you can pretty much ignore every thing I have said.

Hanging quilts at ear level...Yup. That's about it. Begin with one queen sized quilt folded in half lengthwise on each side wall, parallel with the floor starting a couple feet back from the front speakers with a third quilt tacked unfolded on the rear wall. This should produce a noticable improvement in sound. I can't tell if your ceiling tiles are reflective to high frequencies or not (most are). If reflective I would also experiment with the ceiling in front of the speakers. Listen to some well recorded music (preferably with strong vocals) from the front row seats, before and after the changes. Go to extremes (no blankets & way too many) then come back again until you find something that sounds the best. I bet you will not end up with every square inch of your walls covered. This technique might seem unprofessional but it sure makes it easy to do an "A/B" comparison simply by hanging or removing a couple of blankets.

In my theater I was all gung-ho to smother my screen wall in sound absorption like so many other theaters until I tacked up a cheap fiberfill quilt and immediately heard the life get sucked out of my sound system.

Theoretically you want to focus on direct reflections from the main speakers. With 3 speakers up front, 6 potential seating positions and 4 direct reflective surfaces (side walls, back wall and ceiling) you can see that the science of sound treatment gets very complex. Throw in bass traps and sound difusers and you have a real mess. Thankfully its more of a "horseshoes and hand grenades" scenario...close is generally good enough.

I am going to try this trick over the weekend to get a gauge on how much to insulate. Question... if I decide that I don't want to put the OC703 all the way around, can I use polyester batting to support the fabric walls instead and avoid the deadening effect? I don't want to kill the room's sound but also want some resistance under the fabric walls.
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post #16 of 127
9/25/11 at 6:19pm
Thread Starter 
The goal for this weekend was to get the can lights installed and the switches mounted. Did not get it finished but did get all the lights mounted and wire ran. I roughed in the switch box and am ready to tie into the circuit as soon as I get the switches hooked up and the cans wired in. Also got the trim pieces on the lights spray painted, turned out pretty good.

Juno can from Lowes, pretty easy install right into to the drop ceiling rail.



This is what my finished ceiling will look like! I really like the Stratford tiles from Ceilume.



Roughed out switch plate. Will be getting Lutron Maestro for front cans, Lutron slide switch dimmer for rear cans, and a standard switch for the riser lights. Furring strips in preparation for the OC703 and GOM that's coming.

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post #17 of 127
9/25/11 at 6:24pm
Thread Starter 
I picked up some 1x3x8 lumber at my local store as they were decent quality and looked good for furring strips and cheap ($1.05 each). I got them home and found they were about 1/8 of an inch shallower than the depth of OC703. I've ready lots of posts about people making furring strips, many of them involving ripping 2x4's in half, which would result in something less than 1" as well.

I don't have my GOM yet, but does anyone have experience with stretching it across the furring strips - will it press the OC703 down to match the width if you stretch it tight enough?
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post #18 of 127
9/25/11 at 7:34pm
Polyester batting will absorb your high frequencies almost as well as the OC703. You can just wrap wood frames in cloth with nothing behind them if you are going for a unified look around the room. Even the GOM fabric will absorb some sound but likely not enough to make a huge different in the sound of the room.
Have fun playing with the blankets. It's the cheapest improvement and lessen you will learn in audio.

I love those ceiling tiles you have chosen. Are they made from tin? Won't they vibrate like crazy?

I'm using the Lutron remote control dimmer in my theater as well and love it. Reasonably priced, simple and reliable...just like me.
Its programmed into my learning remote.

To answer your question about the furring...What ever you are trying to hide behind the fabric panels can not protrude above the furring, otherwise you will end up with lumps and bumps.
2X4's are 1.5 X 3.5" so people are probably just ripping 0.5" off to give a full 1" dimension.
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post #19 of 127
9/26/11 at 2:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

I love those ceiling tiles you have chosen. Are they made from tin? Won't they vibrate like crazy?

These tiles are from Ceilume. I am going with the Stratford model. The one pictured I believe is not the Stratford, I ordered two samples and the one shown looks just like it only much thicker (and more expensive). I had my samples in when I did some dry run movie watching with no rattling. They are made out of a thin plastic material. I have seen some other builds with these that have had success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

To answer your question about the furring...What ever you are trying to hide behind the fabric panels can not protrude above the furring, otherwise you will end up with lumps and bumps.
2X4's are 1.5 X 3.5" so people are probably just ripping 0.5" off to give a full 1" dimension.

I actually did see a few that used both halves of the ripped 2x4,s although they used Linacoustic versus OC703, but both are 1 inch. I think I will give it a shot with my 1x3's and maybe look for some washers or rubber O rings for the back side that will go against the wall to help push it out enough to be flush with the OC.
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post #20 of 127
9/27/11 at 6:01pm
Thread Starter 
Any tips for painting the drop ceiling rails black? I bought spray paint for my recessed lighting trim which worked great, and I tried it on a scrap section of the drop ceiling railing that was put up long ago. It painted fine with one coat of the spray paint. Can I just spray the rails in place? Maybe holding some cardboard behind where I'm spraying to catch the overspray?
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post #21 of 127
9/27/11 at 9:53pm
Hi Kelton325.
The theater is looking very good. I'm excited to see those ceiling tiles once they are all up.

I'm building a similarly sized theater right now myself. (here) Well the width is similar, but my room is not quite as long.

How far away from the screen will you be placing your projector? Will it be inline with your back row of seats? If so, will it hit the folks sitting in the front row in the back of the head?
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post #22 of 127
9/28/11 at 2:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandak View Post

How far away from the screen will you be placing your projector? Will it be inline with your back row of seats? If so, will it hit the folks sitting in the front row in the back of the head?

I haven't settled on the exact distance, however from my experimentation the front row will probably be 9 to 10 feet. Screen size between 106 and 120. The big variable for me is the second row sightline - that is going to be my limiting factor as the ceiling is only 6' 9". I am going to shoot for a 12" riser with another 2-4" mini riser, but that will obviously create a head banging hazard that I will have to accept. I am going to mock something up to see how this feels.

The projector will be mounted over the second row, but far enough back that anyone getting up won't hit it. There will be a bar behind the back row that prevent anyone walking behind the chairs from hitting it.

Thanks for the compliments I will be checking out your build!
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post #23 of 127
9/28/11 at 7:14pm
Thread Starter 
Finished wiring the can lights and dimmer switches tonight, which means I've caught up to where I'd planned to finish last weekend.

Also got a big shipment from Monoprice with my HDMI's, speaker wire, IR extender, HDMI splitter, and 6.5 inch In-Ceiling speakers.

Still looking for tips on painting a drop ceiling railing black - couldn't find much in my search (mostly what I could find was about painting the tile itself which I'm not doing)



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post #24 of 127
9/28/11 at 11:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelton325 View Post

Still looking for tips on painting a drop ceiling railing black.

Can't see there being any trick to it. Brush or spray can are the options.
Spray would give a better finish and be less likely to pick up dust from the back side of the rails but you would need to cover every square inch of that carpet.
Just have at 'er. We're anxious to see those ceiling tiles go in.

My wife once sprayed a couple dinning room chairs black in the confined space of our pantry. We're still eating canned goods with painted lids two years later.
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post #25 of 127
9/29/11 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelton325 View Post

Thanks!

To answer your question, I took a "before" shot with my current room width of 10' 8" and my 97" wide row of 3, and an "after" shot subtracting 9" and simulating a 9' 11" room:

BEFORE


AFTER


As a fellow small space builder, I wish I could tell you "no problem, it's fine", but it was a little uncomfortable at the simulated 9' 11" width. I looked long and hard at chairs before settling on my Pacificos, which are decently narrow. If you can find something more narrow I'd probably recommend it. You may want to tape out the dimensions of your rows of chairs to get a feeling and maybe stack some boxes on the edge to get the feel for the width.

Thanks for the pics of this. It's certainly illustrative of my future issues. I may have to go with just 2 seats up front and then 3 in back. I doubt I'll generally need more seating than that, but it's always nice to fit more folks if possible.
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post #26 of 127
9/29/11 at 5:27pm
Hey!! Get your grubby shoes off the new carpet!
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post #27 of 127
9/29/11 at 5:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

Hey!! Get your grubby shoes off the new carpet!

Haha, it's actually the old carpet... It's all coming out eventually!
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post #28 of 127
9/30/11 at 8:20pm
Thread Starter 
Here's my goal to accomplish this weekend. Another Buckeye home game this week so this will all need to happen Sunday:


Install Power outlet for Subwoofer behind screen wall
Install Power outlet for Media Rack
Assemble shelves that will serve as Media Rack
Install projector mount and test
Power outlet for Projector
Run HDMI for projector
Run wiring for speakers
Paint Drop Ceiling Rails
Paint In-Ceiling Speaker trim
Run wiring for speakers
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post #29 of 127
10/1/11 at 5:42am
Thread Starter 
I am planning my ceiling projector mount. I have a Atdec TH-WH-PJ-FM Telehook Universal Projector Flush Mount, and I need to drop it about 8-10" from the floor joists above to go through the drop ceiling. I also have a need to get the projector as high as possible due to low ceiling, so I want to build something that will give me flexibility to move the mount up & down as I'm experimenting. What I am planning:
  1. Nail two 2x4 blocks between 2 floor joints
  2. Drill two holes in the blocks
  3. Run 2 large/long bolts downward through the holes in 2x4s
  4. Attach projector mount to the bolts through the holes in the projector mount.

Pros:
  • Cheap
  • Easy & quick
  • Flexible - I can raise and lower the height of the mount to fine tune it exactly where I want it

Cons:
  • I think it will be sturdy enough to hold the projector up, but worried it might be a little flimsy and might allow the projector to move/vibrate if the volume is cranked.

Here are pictures of what I'm considering, please give me feedback!


Mount (already purchased, need to make this work):


View looking up into the ceiling:


View looking at projector from the front:
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post #30 of 127
10/1/11 at 9:03am
If you have the space I would be more inclined to build a small 3 sided plywood box with the bottom hanging down to roughly the correct height. Tack each side gently into the joist with a couple screws, mount the project and test. Back the screws out and readjust the box position until either the height is bang on or just slightly high. Use large washers between the mount and the box to nudge the projector down and balance horizontaly if needed.
I would make the box large enough so that the sides stradle the floor joists to make it easier to access the screws.

If readirod is still your choice run a couple nuts on before attaching the mount. Then at least you have some clamping ability between the two nuts and only have to worry about rod flex.

(Scanning back I seem to be jumping all over your thread. Hope you don't mind. Always nice to have one of the wise ones chime in with advice, unforuntately that's not me. )
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