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Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - Page 5

post #121 of 6610
Jon,

Welcome to the forum!

I have Channel Master's largest uhf/vhf antenna chimney-mounted with a rotator. I can receive 51, 41, and 30 from Dayton. I can also receive 31 (maps to 12), 35 (maps to 5), 29 (maps to 19) from Cincinnati, and intermittently I can receive 10 (WCPO-which maps to 9). I have in the past, when conditions are very favorable, been able to receive 34 in Cincinnati and a couple stations in Columbus. I'm located just S. of Englewood.

If you've read any of this thread, I'm sure you've seen where we are all anxiously awaiting WDTN to bring up the rear with their digital transmitter which will be on channel 50. We've been expecting to see something from them for quite awhile. When they become active, that will give you a local ABC affiliate in addition to the NBC and CBS that you can already receive. You may have noticed that WRGT (the local Fox affiliate) is broadcasting in standard definition only on their digital station.

I'm sure you could do better if there is any possibility of getting that antenna outside. Still, I'm surprised to see that you can pull in 5-1 from Cincinnati with it mounted in the attic. That's exceptional from your location.

Paul
post #122 of 6610
Thanks for the welcome, Ive been reading the forum for about a year.
I'm just starting , but I have researched a lot for the last two years. I just bought a widescreen the past month, and trying to do a little as my budget allows. I just couldn't wait any longer I had to see what HDTV I could receive. So I pickup the 420 tuner on Sunday.

I was surprised too, I tried to put the bowtie antenna it in a spare bedroom , but couldn't pickup much of any thing. So I drug it up to the attic , ran some R6 up, connected it . I just couldn't pick up WGRT (45) analog. Every other UHF analog channel in the area came in clear
When I connected the HDV420 receiver, it locked in all channels I listed.
When I ran across 35 from Cincy(5-1) , it will only scale to 4:3.
WHIO-DT comes in very well on 41-1 and 41-2.
I was puzzled why the signal on 51-1 & 51-2 degraded to poor on Sunday night?? While I could still receive 5-1 from Cincy in sd.
Have you noticed this before?

I also emailed WHIO & WDTN about their HD status, never receive a response.

Jon



I plan on putting up a modest tower, or roof mount in the spring. I believe my location is one of the higher points in Montgomery county.
post #123 of 6610
Jon,

I haven't had any problems with WKEF, but I do have a monster antenna.
I think you're right about your elevation.
I emailed WDTN in the past and got a response. I sent them another one last week looking for an update but they haven't responded to that one, yet. I'll post their response here if I get one.
CBS (41-1) has the most HD programming to date. I'm sure you'll enjoy the primetime stuff this week. I think that CSI and CSI Miami are some of the best looking shows they offer, IMHO.
Enjoy!

Paul
post #124 of 6610
Paul,

Yes, definitely let us know what you hear from WDTN-DT if they answer this time ... Haven't seen that they have filed for an STA with FCC as of yet, although their recently filed CP extension app seemed to indicate they would be filing for a STA soon.

Jon,

Welcome. Concerning WRGT 45 analog, they were completely off the air for much of Saturday(but the digital was on the air!), and I believe they are now running at lower power levels than normal.

Haven't noticed a problem with WKEF-DT here. I'm 12 Miles SW of their tower between Middletown and Germantown. NBC has dropped the HD ball quite a bit in the last week , neither WKEF or WLWT had "American Dreams" in HD last night -- Because of a problem at the network, not at the stations.

I've pretty much decided to get a 2nd STB here to use in a variety of ways, and I'm also pretty sure it's going to be a HDV420. Noticed the CC by Dayton mall had one hooked up, and tuned to WKEF-DT or WLWT-DT yesterday afternoon, the turk antenna on the settop wasn't doing all that great of a job at it though! I also happened to notice at BB yesterday that they actually Had an HD loop showing on their Plasmas ... In actual HD! Part of the loop was some of the HD Cincy footage from PPS that WCPO-DT was airing last week.
post #125 of 6610
Jon,

Welcome to the forum!

I'm guessing WKEF-DT was degraded due to their low power level. Since they cut back their broadcast power, I get a lot of drop outs on 51.

On your antenna, I've played with a RS Double-bow-tie in the house and up in the attic. I found it was very location sensitive. I could move it around a few feet and my signals would change significantly. You might try moving it and see if WKEF-DT improves. I have a RS VU-190 mounted in the attic, pointed at Cincinnati. When I put the double-bow-tie in the attic, my signal levels were close to the UHF levels on the VU-190.

Vandalia ought to be a good location for a fixed antenna mount, you probably point the same direction for Dayton and Cincinnati stations!

Enjoy your new toy!
post #126 of 6610
Jeff,

It's just amazing that we're starting to see PBS digital stations up and running but WDTN can't seem to get it together. Maybe I can catch all the ABC reruns in HD this spring.

I'm sure you've probably watched NYPD Blue in HD on WCPO. How good is the pq? Would you say it's on par with some of the better shows on CBS?

Paul
post #127 of 6610
I bought the HDV420 at CC on Sunday. Just been playing with it, manual does tell much, but it's a pretty simple piece of hardware.
The sensitivity appears to meet my needs, as you can judge by my quick thrown together antenna.
I read on other forums that the close caption doesn't work, but I haven't tried that yet.
This being my first one I'm not sure yet whether it is "good" one or not.
One good thing about CC right now, they will take returns on anything, no questions, until January 30, 2003. So I thought I will try it . I believe I will be satisfied with the Zenith hardware, it's the programing , or lack there of, that seems to be frustrating everyone now.

So I will play with it tonight, and drive my wife crazy:
post #128 of 6610
Paul,

NYPD Blue looks great. I would say it is similar to ER in PQ. I'm surprised you can't get a lock on WCPO-DT. They seem to be as strong as the other cincy stations. (besides the whole VHF thing!)

Jon,

I hear you on the wife! If I reach for the remote during one of the prime-time shows, my wife lets me know about it!!
post #129 of 6610
Evan,

That I can't receive WCPO-DT is what's driving me crazy! I went out and bought a new CM 3671 vhf/uhf antenna, mast, rotator, mounts, coax, etc. I thought it would be a piece of cake. As I've told Jeff, they're the clearest analog station I receive--just can't get a digital lock except on the rare evening of 'tropo'. All the other digitals in Cincy come in just fine. I gave up short of putting up a tower. I just couldn't justify that kind of money for one channel, especially with WDTN supposedly on the horizon.

Paul
post #130 of 6610
Quote:


Originally posted by Evan
I'm guessing WKEF-DT was degraded due to their low power level. Since they cut back their broadcast power, I get a lot of drop outs on 51.


Evan, WKEF-DT was running at 1/4 power only for a few weeks a few months back. Their Chief Engineer informed me in October that they had increased to "full power" levels. Has this situation changed? I haven't noticed a difference in their signal here since then, although I couldn't really tell much of a difference when they were at 1/4 power.

WKEF-DT Full power allocation is 138KW ERP, but, according to the STA they are operating with, they are running 95 KW ERP --- Except when they were running at 1/4 power, at which time they were running approx. 20KW ERP. Their antenna is non-directional, so it should have a circular radiation pattern.

From what I understand, Per FCC rules, they must operate with the power levels/etc. their station is authorized for, and would need to get a new permit(STA in this case) to operate their facilities at different power output, or with a different antenna/etc for any extended period of time. Exceptions occur because of RF exposure Regs when workers are on or near their tower, and when technical problems occur.

Since WKEF-DT operates on fairly high frequency on the UHF TV band however, "generally speaking" it takes more power than a lower frequency would, especially so for enough of the signal to "reach" an indoor receiving antenna. Anyhow, I've heard from Cincinnati area viewers who receive them fine with a medium sized Yagi mounted outdoors.
post #131 of 6610
Joe,

In case you haven't seen it, Here's an excellent review of the HDV420:

http://www.projectorexpert.com/Pages/zenith.html

This review(and its DTV receiver/multipath results), the price, comments on AVSHardware area and the fact it has a RGB output is what has led me to this STB. I Really have no need for the EPG stuff/etc, I'll mostly be using this with a PC monitor and a "old fashioned" analog TV/VCR. I suppose it is also in the back of my mind that if the DM1(Basically a DTC-100) module ever fails in our F38310, it also will work a backup OTA ATSC tuner for the HT!

Enjoy the HD,
post #132 of 6610
Oops! Sorry about all the quick posts.

Paul,

I've really never paid enough attention to NYPD Blue, but from the little I've seen of it, it looks good. Pretty much everything looks really good on WCPO-DT for that matter, I think perhaps "The Practice" has the softest look to it. Some of the HD movies I've seen on WCPO-DT have been among the best HD PQ I've seen. Superbowl should look very good (presumably on WDTN too!)

WCPO-DT upconverts everything to 1080i BTW(even 720p from ABC), and probably does a much better job of it than our STB's could.
post #133 of 6610
Jeff,

I didn't know that WKEF-DT bumped the power back up. I really haven't been checking the Dayton stations much, except looking for 50! Since I added a preamp and distribution amp to my setup, it's more directionally sensitive (or maybe distance sensitive.) I get the 4 major networks from Cincy at full strength now, but WHIO-DT and WKEF-DT are marginal. I think the gain from my preamp/amp might be overdriving dayton, the strong stations are bad, but I get WRGT-DT perfectly. I guess it's time to experiment again!!

Paul,

That's a bummer. Hopefully WDTN-DT will be up before the superbowl. Did the antenna help you get anything else?
post #134 of 6610
Evan, Yeah, as close as you are to the Dayton towers, your preamp could be overloading, which causes noise(Intermodulation) from strong stations to be scattered all over other channels. If your antenna is aimed away from the close by stations however, hopefully it will reject enough of the signal off the side and back to alleviate any intermod problems from the Dayton station -- It's the antenna that is directionally sensitive, not the preamp --- In addition to the good thing it does in helping you out with the Cincy stations, the preamp also adds noise, and, in addition might make it more difficult for your receiver to correct for multipath, especially so if the antenna you are using is not pointed towards the Dayton Towers -- Which of course it can't be from Centerville if It's aimed towards Cincy!

If you're using both a mast mount amp and a distribution amp, from what I've experienced, what the distribution amp will end up mostly doing is adding more noise than anything else -- Sounds like it's working for you for Cincy DT's though. Also, keep in mind, a preamp doesn't really increase the signal level coming in from the desired station like getting the antenna outdoors would.

Using a seperate, low gain antenna for Dayton reception would most likely be a good option for you, with A/B switch if necessary, and you don't have 2 antenna inputs on your STB ---- A simple "Bowtie" or UHF loop antenna might work well from Indoors for the Dayton DT's, although a directional antenna(you should need a relatively small one for Dayton from your distance), aimed toward the towers, and mounted outdoors is always the best idea.

Also, I'm sure your Cincy reception would improve greatly if you could get the antenna out of the attic. If your current antenna(VU190 I believe) isn't aimed towards Dayton when you're trying to get the Dayton stations, dropouts due to multipath and rejection of a good amount of the signal strength off the side/back of the antenna should be expected. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pick up All the Cincy area stations with good results, even WCET-DT(At low power currently) and WCVN-DT(In N. KY with a antenna lower than the others) if the antenna were mounted in a reasonably high spot outdoors.

Hope this helps+Good luck,
post #135 of 6610
I received this email reply today . Dec. 17, 2002. From WDTN
I emailed :
.Are you currently transmitting ABC's HDTV feeds to the TV2 viewing area?
If not when are you planning on doing so?

Reply:
Not at this time. Possibly in a week..

I know it was a rather wordy reply, but this is what they sent.

Well hopefully WDTN may be up with something before New Years.

Jon
post #136 of 6610
Quote:


Originally posted by Evan

Paul,

That's a bummer. Hopefully WDTN-DT will be up before the superbowl. Did the antenna help you get anything else?

Evan,

Not really. I've got higher relative signal strength readings from everyone, but I can't receive anything now that I couldn't before with my old junk antenna. Costly experiment, not to mention a day tramping around on the roof. I tried two different amps and they just killed everything except the locals. Must have amplified the noise and multipath. I would love to try a different STB to see if that helps, but that's also a pricey proposition.

Paul
post #137 of 6610
Jeff,

I pulled the distribution amp last night and saw a signal strength increase on WCET-DT and WSTR-DT. ;^) It didn't help WHIO-DT and WKEF was of the air? I agree the antenna is the directionally sensitive piece, but without the PREamp I pull Dayton stations 120 degrees away, at full strength. Go figure!

I'll try replacing the distribution amp with a splitter when I get the time. I installed the distribution amp to replace splitters before I got the preamp. The best splitters I tried caused too much signal loss. I need to retry splitter with the preamp.
I hear you on the outside antenna, but given the stations will continue to increase power, and since I get a full strenght signal on ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX with an attic mount, it seems like too much work.

I do have an A/B switch and a RS double bowtie connected to my E86. Its pointed at Dayton. I only use it when one of the Cincinnati stations go off of the air.

Paul,
It sounds like we have been down the same road with amps! I found that downstream splitters were the biggest culprit with my earlier setup.

On testing STBs, I've got two right now, the RCA-F38310 and Hughes-E86. I've been comparing them recently and they are very close. I've been paying particular attention to WCET-DT. When I can lock the station on one STB, I get it on both. When one STB has drop-outs, they both do.

Hopefully I can compare them on WDTN-DT within a week! Picture this, we might get that "kid at Christmas" feeling on Christmas!! Cool....
post #138 of 6610
Quote:


Originally posted by jparin
I received this email reply today . Dec. 17, 2002. From WDTN
I emailed :
.Are you currently transmitting ABC's HDTV feeds to the TV2 viewing area?
If not when are you planning on doing so?

Reply:
Not at this time. Possibly in a week..

I know it was a rather wordy reply, but this is what they sent.

Well hopefully WDTN may be up with something before New Years.

Jon

LOL. As Evan mentioned, I'm hoping for that "kid at Christmas" feeling ... probably a longshot though. Anyhow, in the reasons WDTN gave to FCC for needing to file a second CP extension(I provided a link to it somewhere on last page), They said they would soon be filing for an STA with FCC ... I've yet to see one pop up in FCC database ... Usually, it takes a week or two after they pop up there before they are granted.

It "looks like" the facilities are ready to go, and that they just need to write up(and have reviewed by their lawyers/etc) their STA request. So, it would seem like it should be soon ...

However, I did notice that as of Yesterday, FCC granted WDTN's 2nd CP extension, filed on 12/5. Sooo, if nothing else I guess they'll be up by 6/16/2003 for sure. They can't get a 3rd extension, 2 are all that are allowed.

Evan,

I split the feedline 4 ways, and the mast mount preamp I use does a great job in helping to "combat" the loss from the splitters. If it weren't for the TV Dx'ing I do, WCVN/WCVN-DT, WCET-DT presently and the Low power Cincy analogs though, I wouldn't need the preamp as the other Cincy signals are very strong.

Don't know what time you were checking WKEF-DT last night, but I didn't see them off the air. Leno was in HD, which I stayed up to check since it seems NBC has dropped the HD ball quite a bit in the last week.

BTW, FWIW, I had No difficultly installing my outdoor TV antennas, the main one with rotor has been there since I put it up 10 years ago(If I remember correctly, it took about an hour or so). Of course, it helps that the tower, feedline/preamp and rotor cable was already there. Anyhow, It's been "hands off" since then. It just sits up there doing its thing, pulling in all the stations w/o dropouts or problems. The other one (A CM3010) is side mounted to the tower and aimed towards Dayton, I put it up last year and have no problems with it either.
post #139 of 6610
Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I did notice that as of Yesterday, FCC granted WDTN's 2nd CP extension, filed on 12/5. Sooo, if nothing else I guess they'll be up by 6/16/2003 for sure. They can't get a 3rd extension, 2 are all that are allowed.

Oh Geez...I guess I'll just go start constructing my 40' tower right now.
post #140 of 6610
Paul,

LOL! If past experience with station on-air dates is any indication, 6/16/2003 or later sounds about right ...However, I don't want to "jinx it" so I probably shouldn't say anything, but somehow I think in this case, given WDTN-DT's "excuse" for not being up by 12/5 that we'll see them "fairly" soon.

For WCPO-DT, I think your best bet would be if you could find a "sweet spot" for your antenna, although I realize that's a little hard to do if it is mounted on the Chimney ... Or, as another option, ... you could try adding a Antenna specifically "cut" for Channel 10 to your existing mast(this could be combined with your existing antenna onto the same feedline with a CM "jointenna" or perhaps a simple combiner(splitter used backwards), or a mast side mounted to your house ... Among other Hi-quality OTA antenna and preamp related items, Blonder-Tongue makes excellent single channel cut antennas, although they are often a bit expensive($250-300 for Channel 10 for example).

You can most likely get a 30' or so tower for that kind of dough though, mabye even for free if you have a neighbor who wants his old one taken down. The more expensive towers in the $$$$.$$ are made of aluminum, and are crank-up towers/etc. I don't know where you get them at anymore, but the Steel towers are much cheaper. Only drawback is you need to maintain them and do rust removal/paint them every 10 years or so. Also, the ones I have are 20-30+ years old, and are made of quite heavy guage galvanized steel, some of the newer ones may be of lighter guage steel, and may quickly rust to nothing if they aren't properly maintained.

Anyhow, Blonder Tongue Antenna page at Starkelectronics is here:

http://www.starkelectronic.com/btp1.htm

Blonder-Tongue Site is here:

http://www.blondertongue.com/
post #141 of 6610
Article in Dayton Business Journal Today concerning Rex "Gearing up" for HDTV. It mentions there are only 2 Stations in Dayton putting out a digital signal(WHIO+WKEF) and leaves out WRGT-DT. LOL.

Also, it says little about STB's/DTV receivers. Here's the article:

http://dayton.bizjournals.com/dayton...16/story3.html

BTW, unless it's my Eyes(?), I've noticed that WRGT-DT's SD PQ has improved considerably recently(noticed it sunday), It's best noticed when Fox programming is being broadcast --- Furthermore, I also noticed while WRGT-DT has been up as normal, WRGT 45 analog was off the air again a good portion of Yesterday evening/night -- In fact, I just checked and they are still off the air! Maybe they are completing the analog shut off early!
post #142 of 6610
Article in the Dayton Daily News, Friday Dec 20, 2002.
Don Loose , who writes a weekly A/V technology article for the paper , spoke with WDTN, Channel 50, engineer , Jim Atkinson. Mr Atkinson states , WDTN-DT50 , plans to be on the air by Christmas.
Now is all fairness he didn't say which Christmas.
However Don Loose is a very good writer, he keeps up-to-date on all audio and visual technology. I have found his past articles informative, and sometimes way above my techinical understanding of a/v physics.
Maybe it will come to pass .

Jon
post #143 of 6610
Jon,

Finger's crossed for this Christmas! If Paul's been Good, perhaps Santa will bring ABC HD to Dayton ;-)

Also If you haven't seen it, Several of Don Loose's articles on HT A/V are posted here, Including articles on HD, and the OTA "situation" in Dayton.

http://www.audio-etc.net/articles.htm
post #144 of 6610
Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Finger's crossed for this Christmas! If Paul's been Good, perhaps Santa will bring ABC HD to Dayton ;-)

I guess I haven't been good.
post #145 of 6610
Paul,

How's that tower coming?

At our neighborhood Christmas party last week, a neighbor asked me about HDTV (he noticed my 3-LNB sat dish.) He said that someone told him WDTN-DT was on the air as of the previous weekend. When we got home I double checked! -Bummer.....
post #146 of 6610
Evan,

Bummer is right! Looks like I may be finding someplace else to watch the Superbowl other than my place. So you say you live in Centerville?

Paul
post #147 of 6610
The Audio Etc web site has been moved to a different URL (as well as the Don Loose articles). The URL is now http://www.audioetc.tv/articles.htm.

I just hit and it seems to be down right now.
post #148 of 6610
Electronica,

Thanks for the URL update ... BTW, It works if you take off the period at the end

http://www.audioetc.tv/articles.htm
post #149 of 6610
Thread Starter 
A couple of questions:

1) I have a DST-3000 STB. It takes 4 full seconds for 7-1 and 45-1 and only 2 seconds for 22-1 to appear on my screen after being selected. I see the same delays if I punch in their actual UHF channel numbers (41-1, 30-1, and 51-1). Anybody else see these type of delays and differences between the channels?

2) Anybody have a URL for the most recent Don Loose article in the DDN indicating that WDTN-DT would be up and running "by Christmas"? The Audio Etc. site hasn't been updated since his original set of articles a year ago.
post #150 of 6610
Gindie,

1.)Takes less than 2 seconds here for all 3 to appear on a Zenith HDV420 and a DTC100(Actually, the DM1 module internal to a F38310 Integrated HDTV). I have channel remapping turned off on the DTC100, the Zenith doesn't remap any of the Dayton channels, although it remaps all the Cincy ones, currently, except for WCET-DT 34.

2.) DDN doesn't seem have any of the Don Loose articles on their website, including the latest one. They do have an online database which contains text from everything that's been printed in DDN (and more) going back to 1990, but there are fees involved to view the content. Searching the Library is free though. I tried it, as well as the search function on their main page with no luck.

http://library.activedayton.com/
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