or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › HDTV › Local HDTV Info and Reception › Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - Page 6

post #151 of 6610
Hello everyone,

I've been lurking for about a month now and figured it was time to jump in and say hi. I thought some of you may be interested in what DT reception is like up here in Urbana.

I'm using a 16 foot ChannelMaster's VHF/UHF chimney mounted w/rotor. I can currently receive 6 OTA digital broadcasts at 80+% and 3 others intermittently. Here are the details:

WHIO-DT (41), WKEF-DT (51), WRGT-DT (30)
20-30 degree arc centered on 235

WCMH-DT (14), WBNS-DT (21)
20-25 degree arc centered on 97

WWHO-DT (46) (UPN)
very narrow arc, 137

I can also receive WLIO-DT (20) (NBC) out of lima pretty well on 325 degrees if the weather is good. Like most of the posters here, I've had little luck pulling in an ABC DT broadcast. Occasionally I get snippets of WSYX-DT (13) out of Columbus, as well its sister staion WTTE-DT (36) (FOX). They're both still broadcasting low power, so until they boost the signal or WDTN goes live I'll be out of luck, as CIncy is way too far.

The latest word is that I'll (hopefully) be able to receive another 3 stations sometime this month ... WBDT-DT (18) (WB) Springfield is scheduled to go live on the 15th, and two PBS stations, WPTD-DT (58), Dayton and WOSU-DT (38), Columbus are supposed to begin broadcasting this week. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.

post #152 of 6610
Welcome, Ingo!

Thanks for the update. I didn't realize that WPTD-DT was that close to going live. That's really going to be sad if they beat WDTN-DT.

post #153 of 6610
Yes, indeed, welcome to AVSforum Ingo. I was beginning to wonder if there was anyone up that way with a DTV receiver! Sounds like your antenna setup is working well, and that you are in an excellent spot for reception of the Dayton/Columbus and Lima stations. I believe the stations you mention are all between 38-50 miles or so from "center" of Urbana. WWHO should be farthest, at just over 49 "crow fly" miles.

You might want to drop WLIO's Chief Operator (Fred Vobbe) a note, along with a signal report, including info on your location, antenna setup/Receiver etc. Their digital station is on Channel 8 however, not Channel 20. FCC had originally allocated channel 20 for WLIO-DT, but, WLIO was able to get this changed to VHF 8, probably to have a shot at better coverage and at lower power.

Center of Urbana looks to be 48 miles "crow fly" miles from their tower.
WLIO-DT is currently operating under a Low Power STA from FCC, with a non-directional antenna 160ft above ground. They are currently putting out a whopping 430 watts ERP(effective radiated power) or so. Anyhow, you'll find contact info near bottom of the page here:


Concerning WBDT-DT, I haven't spoken with anyone there in quite a while, but as per info they have sent FCC, as long as the folks from Thales aren't delayed further in commissioning their transmitter, hopefully we'll see them by Jan 15, possibly sooner. You just never know though, their 2nd CP extension doesn't run out until May or June 2003.

Unfortunetly, It often seems to be the case that these stations will wait as long as they possibly can before switching the DTV transmitters on, most likely to save on power bills, and because they often don't seem to think many(if any) of us are out here watching. I was told back last summer that they might not have WB HD to start off with, but that we should keep our fingers crossed.

Also, when WBDT analog used to be WDPX, and WTJC before that, their tower was on the West Side of Springfield, just 12 Miles or so from Urbana. However, a couple of years ago, they moved the transmitter/tower site to the location of the rest of the Dayton Towers(Except for WWRD-LP 55 "America's store", which is currently near Bellbrook/Centerville), all of which are very close together on the "hill" in West Dayton, Just South of U.S. 35, and between RT 4 and I-75. WBDT-DT will also be transmitting from this location in Dayton, not from Springfield.

Concerning WPTD-DT, last I heard from their Chief Engineer back in August, they were planning on being up "on or around" May 1, 2003. However, I heard much the same from WCET-DT Cincy(PBS) at that time, and they came on the air in Early December. So, I was wondering, where you had heard the info on WPTD-DT? I did see a sort of "promo" the other night on their analog sister station, WPTO 14 in Oxford Ohio, involving Lexis-Nexis and their digital stations, If I didn't know better, from the promo I would have thought the digital stations were already on the air!

BTW, FWIW, the on air dates from sources such as TitanTV/etc. are more often wrong than not. WDTN-DT's on air date at one time was July 15,2002, for example. While they did have a 1/1/03 on air date listed for WPTD, it has now changed to "under review". Last I'd heard from sources in Columbus, WOSU-DT also was planning on a 5/2003 "or so" on air date.

Don't mean to "dash" anyone's hopes concerning on-air dates/etc., but so far, it seems better to be "cautious" about our enthusiasm until the stations are actually on the air and providing good service(i.e. HD especially).

Of course, since many of these stations don't seem to think hardly anyone is watching their digital stations, by all means, contact them with signal reports/etc. and let them know that your family is, or will be watching! Some sort of contact info for the stations can usually be found at the station's websites or in the phone book -- URL's for websites for stations are shown in the listings here:

post #154 of 6610
A little bit of hopefully good news ...

An application for WDTN-DT to operate with an STA(Special Temporary Authority) has just appeared on FCC site, as of today (1/6/2003).

Tech details(power/antenna height) on the STA have yet to pop up on the FCC TV query site, I'll post the info as soon as it does.

In any event, for DTV STA's It usually takes less than 10 days-2 weeks or so for FCC to grant an STA, if they're aren't any "problems" with the application. What happens after the STA is granted is hard to say. I've seen it be months between the time a STA is granted and the station goes on the air, but generally, stations do go on the air soon after the STA is granted. Example, within hours of approval by FCC of WCET-DT Cincy's STA, they were on the air. WKOI-DT 39(TBN), Richmond, IN(Tower between Trenton and Oxford, Ohio) had their STA granted on 10/10/02 and they are still not on the air ... WSTR-DT also had their STA granted in October 2002, and weren't on the air until mid-December. However, In the cases of the latter 2 stations mentioned, they both asked for a 2nd CP extension although FCC DENIED their 1st extensions -- In WKOI-DT's case, their transmitter manufacturer couldn't install the equipment necessary to meet their expected 12/1/02 on air date.

If I were to take a wild guess, and glimpse into a crystal ball, I'd guess WDTN-DT may be on the air sometime "relatively" soon ... Say, within a month or so.

Anyhow, here is the link to page with info on WDTN-DT's apps to FCC:

post #155 of 6610
Thanks for the info, Jeff. I suppose it would be too much to hope for them to be on the air with HD by January 26th. Too bad it's ABC that's got the Superbowl.

post #156 of 6610
Great news Jeff. I guess we would have to call that progress, since they need the STA.

I'm bummed about the superbowl! I'm out of town that weekend!! It will be interesting to see if my wife watches in HD or SD while I'm gone....

.....I'm betting SD.....
post #157 of 6610
Just noticed something I neglected to look at earlier ... The application file number seems to indicate WDTN-DT filed for the STA on 12/17/2002! (All the newer apps use the date of filing for the file #).

In FCC's most recent rule modifications for DTV STA's during the transistion this is what it says about STA filings+the "timing" involved:

"35. Once the Commission has granted a DTV STA request, the licensee or permittee will be
authorized to commence digital service as specified in the STA. The Commission will make every effort
to act on DTV STA requests within 10 days, absent oppositions or unusual circumstances."

The enitre text of the FCC MO&O containing this, among many other interesting items can be found here:


Anyhow, lets hope there aren't any "oppositions" or "unusual circumstances" that delay the procedure, and that we'll see the STA granted very soon ...

(Jinx Alert ahead!)

Hopefully, with some luck, we'll be seeing a test pattern or programming on WDTN-DT any day now ... Given the DDN article shortly before Christmas, I'm beginning to think that maybe they were planning on being up by Christmas, but now they are waiting on the FCC --
post #158 of 6610
Tech info from FCC website on the STA WDTN-DT filed for follows. Nice to see a fairly high power STA! Looks like their antenna is 158ft higher than what their full power CP allows for, at 1952FT Above sea level(ASL), 1060FT above average terrain. This should allow for a Max Coverage area of about 62 miles or so, although their High UHF frequency(which requires more power to cover the same area as low UHF, and VHF especially) would probably make it a little more difficult to pull in from fringe or areas with signal blockage issues from terrain/etc. Probably "roughly" the same coverage area as the other Dayton stations. WKEF-DT 51 especially, which is currently running 95KW ERP, with a non-directional antenna at 2020FT ASL.


Service Designation: DS Special Temporary Authority (STA) (digital)

Channel 50 Special Tem
File No.: BDSTA -20021217ACD Facility ID No: 65690
CDBS Application ID No.: 622018

39 ° 43' 7.000" Latitude Zone:
84 ° 15' 22.00" Longitude (NAD27) Frequency Offset: None
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 125. kW ERP
Ant. Height Above Average Terrain (HAAT): 323.0 meters HAAT
Ant. Radiation Center Above Mean Sea Level: 589.0 meters RCAMSL
Ant. Radiation Center Above Ground Level: meters RCAGL

Not directional
Not in a Border Zone

39 ° 43' 7.000" Latitude Zone:
84 ° 15' 22.00" Longitude (NAD27) Frequency Offset: None
post #159 of 6610
Per a post from Jim in Oxford on The Cincy Thread, WKOI-DT 39 (TBN) Is on the air -- Anyone in Dayton, Preble co, Or Richmond, Indiana pulling them in? Their Tower is between Trenton and Oxford, Ohio, and their Directional antenna is optimized towards their Community of license, Richmond, Indiana --- Some areas of Dayton should have a better shot of them than I do, might be difficult from South Dayton however.

My understanding is, they were waiting on personel from their transmitter manufacturer (Thales) to complete the buildout of their DTV station ... My understanding also is that WBDT-DT Dayton is also waiting on Thales to finish the installation, and commission the Transmitter ... In other words, Hopefully, we'll also see WBDT-DT 18 Dayton Soon!

Attached is a plot of their antenna's Radiation pattern, and the elevation plot from their tower to mine:
post #160 of 6610

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Per a post from Jim in Oxford on The Cincy Thread, WKOI-DT 39 (TBN) Is on the air -- Anyone in Dayton, Preble co, Or Richmond, Indiana pulling them in?


They're just a blip on the signal strength meter up here. No lock.

Okay, I'm showing my ignorance here; what is TBN?

post #161 of 6610

TBN=Trinity Broadcasting Network (Religious). Their analog is on Channel 43, Tower would be roughly SW of your location.

Of the 11 Dayton/Cincy area DTV stations on the air so far, WKOI-DT is the only one I can't get ... which is no problemo, just hope I can get the rest which aren't on the air yet.

Concerning WDTN-DT, I heard from a fellow(an AVSforum member) who toured WISH-TV/LIN facilities in Indy earlier this week .... What does this have to do with WDTN? Well, LIN, who now owns WDTN will eventually be controlling WDTN/WDTN-DT (The switching for HD/ETC) From their facility in Indy! I saw some nice photos of the Control room which is controlling a few LIN stations currently, with more stations to be added in the future, it really looks like a first class operation.

Graciously, he asked them about WDTN-DT for us, as well as letting them know we are waiting for them in Dayton. Word from there is, they *think* WDTN-DT should be on the air by Superbowl time. Also, evidently, a LIN engineer was/is in Dayton this week working on WDTN-DT facilities.

Still probably best to cross our fingers and take a "wait and see what happens" attitude, but it's nice to get some info from another source. Especially since, looking back through this thread, the info we've gotten so far concerning WDTN-DT has been somewhat akin to listening to the Boy who cried Wolf ....


Noticed last night that WKEF-DT missed a switch to HD during ER after a commercial break, and I looked a couple of times, and NO HD for Leno either. NBC HD was fine via WLWT-DT Cincy.

Just an idea, but, it might be advantageous to pester them(in a nice friendly manner) a little if anyone gets the chance when you notice they miss the switch to HD. I've done it several times, so they are probably sick of hearing from me ... You might want to call, or send a note via their website/etc.
post #162 of 6610
Don't you have them on speed-dial?

Thanks for the update!
post #163 of 6610
If anyone wants to check it out, Pics and info on WISH/LIN Indy facilities (Inlcuding of a control console/Displays similar to the one that will be used to control and monitor WDTN) are available here:


I'd like to have that stuff in the first pic in my basement!

Also, Update: I'm able to pull in WKOI-DT 39 this afternoon, now that the wind has died down. Just barely into the "normal" range on the HDV420's meter, but, it's solid and I'm getting no dropouts.
post #164 of 6610
I am new to the HDTV thing so this may be the silly question but here goes. I am receiving the following locals from here in Springfield:

4.1 - WCMH - NBC - Columbus
30.1 - WRGT - FOX - Dayton
30.2 - WRGT - FOX - Dayton
41.1 - WHIO - CBS - Dayton
41.2 - WHIO - CBS - Dayton
51.1 - WKEF - NBC - Dayton
51.2 - WKEF - NBC - Dayton
98.-- - No idea what this is. I always get a searching for signal.

My main goal here right now is getting ABC from either Columbus or Cinci. Obviously for the superbowl. I have a Sony HD100 receiver and an antenna on a tower that is probably 15 years old or more. The antenna is run with RG59 which I am going to rewire with RG6 soon. I believe there is a channel master amp on it as well but I am not sure. It is mounted in a hard to reach place. I have 2 questions. Should I receive any more stations and where can I point my antenna to receive ABC?

Forgot a 3rd question: It seems like station x.1 has the widescreen format while station x.2 fills the screen. This is on a standard 4x3 TV. What is the difference between the channels? What will I see between these channels once my 730HD arrives Tuesday?
post #165 of 6610

Center of Springfield(at SR 72 & US 40) is 66-68 Miles from the "main" Cincinnati Towers(Would be to the SSW of Springfield), including Cincy ABC -- So, you're most likely just a bit out of reach for them under normal receiving conditions. Perhaps of a bit further added difficulty, ABC Cincy, WCPO-DT 10 (may remap to 9-x) is on the same channel as analog WBNS 10 Columbus, which would probably add quite a bit of noise off the side of your antenna from your distance.

Columbus digital stations currently on the air on the Other hand, I believe would be about 41-42 Miles East and well within range. I believe WOSU(No digital on air yet) and perhaps some other station(s) has a tower North of Columbus, which would be roughly 50 Miles ENE of center of Springfield. I would think you should also be getting WBNS-DT 21 (May remap to 10-x) CBS Columbus, as well as WWHO-DT 46 (may remap to 53-x) UPN/WB Columbus/Chillocothe, which would also be 44 Miles from center of Springfield, but to the SE. The other 2 Columbus stations currently on the air however, WSYX-DT 13(may remap to 6-x) (ABC) and WTTE-DT 36 (Fox_ (May remap to 28-x) are, I believe currently running at Low power levels and may be difficult to pull in. Additionally, I don't have the latest info(you might want to check the Columbus thread), and I could be wrong, but I don't think WSYX-DT is equipped for HD from ABC as of yet. Also, FYI, WCMH-DT broadcasts on channel 14, they send data out to remap to 4.1 so they are next to their analog channel. Some stations do this remapping, some don't. None of The Dayton stations, currently, remap. I have no idea where the 98 is coming from, perhaps you're getting remapping info from one of the Columbus area stations that for some reason, on your receiver is remapping to 98.

Looks like you're getting all the Dayton stations which are currently on the air. Dayton towers are 27-28 Miles SW of center of Springfield. Hopefully, WDTN-DT 50(May remap to 2-x) will be on the air soon with ABC HD, that would probably be your best bet at this time.

On the x.1 and x.2, these are multiple subchannels, used by the stations to multicast either different programming, or at different resolutions/etc. In the case of the Dayton stations currently:

WRGT-DT 30.1 - Simulcast of WRGT 45 analog programming, they do 480i SD 4x3 only.
WRGT-DT 30.2 - All I've ever gotten is a blank screen, are you getting programming there?
WHIO-DT 41.1 - CBS HD (16x9 1080i) when available, otherwise, it's WHIO's "standard" 4x3 SD programming upconverted to 1080i (with black bars on the sides to "fill out" the 1080i 16x9 ATSC format)
WHIO-DT 41.2 - Simulcast of WHIO's standard programming, in 480i SD 4x3. Sometimes this one is there, sometimes it isn't.
WKEF-DT 51.1 - NBC HD (16x9 1080i) when available, otherwise it's WKEF's "standard" 4x3 SD programming upconverted to 1080i ((with black bars on the sides to "fill out" the 1080i 16x9 ATSC format)
WKEF-DT 51.2 - Simulcast of WKEF's standard programming, in 480i SD 4x3.

Hope this helps, and good luck. Fingers crossed here that WDTN-DT will be on the air soon with ABC HD for those who can't get WCPO-DT Cincy!
post #166 of 6610
I watched the Jets/Raiders game yesteday on CBS-41 out of Dayton. I noticed a lot of shots that would look really great and clear, but as soon as there was a lot of fast action on the screen sometimes the picture would become really pixilated (blocky) and then return to normal. Is this a problem that occurs with the cameras, the local station, or my equipment? My STB is a DTC-100. I also notice this pixilation sometimes on the CBS "It's All Here" promos. Unfortunatly I've also seen this happen while watching HDNet.

Could the DTC-100 be at fault?
post #167 of 6610

Originally posted by jafo
I watched the Jets/Raiders game yesteday on CBS-41 out of Dayton. I noticed a lot of shots that would look really great and clear, but as soon as there was a lot of fast action on the screen sometimes the picture would become really pixilated (blocky) and then return to normal. Is this a problem that occurs with the cameras, the local station, or my equipment? My STB is a DTC-100. I also notice this pixilation sometimes on the CBS "It's All Here" promos. Unfortunatly I've also seen this happen while watching HDNet.

Could the DTC-100 be at fault?

No. What you are seeing are compression artifacts, and For the most part, I think it's the station who is to "blame", usually due to the fact that they aren't allocating the full amount of bandwidth possible (19.39Mb/s) to HD. My guess is, WHIO-DT is probably allocating around 14/15Mb/s to 41-1.

We've been discussing this issue here this morning:

post #168 of 6610

I live in Washington Twp, a couple miles due West of downtown Centerville, off of Miamisburg-Centerville Rd (AKA 725, AKA Franklin St).

I am the proud owner of a 5 day old Mitsubishi WS-55511 HDTV with built-in tuner. My wife and I love the HD shows! WOW! The old stuff is marginally acceptable, and very acceptable, given the HD stuff!

I have a RS VU-90XR (the relatively small one) in my attic, pointed towards the "Dayton Complex" of antennas (about 330 degrees for me). I can get the usual channels 30,41,51 . I am waiting (and daily looking) for 18, 50 and 58 !! (especially 50!) For the Super Bowl, I guess I will have to swing my rig around and point to Cincy.

Has anyone told WHIO about those blue lines? I've seen them since day one. Have other cities reported these?

I've enjoyed spending the last hour or so reading past posts about whats happening in Dayton HD, I'm glad I now have others to communicate with!

take care,

post #169 of 6610

Welcome to AVS and the "Dayton waiting for 50, 18 and 58" club!
post #170 of 6610
Welcome Buckeye!

I called WHIO on the blue lines a few months back. I think they thought I was a nut job!

I'm guessing they monitor their HD programming on a small screen. I have a 38" RCA that hardly shows the blue lines, but on my 64" pioneer you can't miss them!

I live about 8 miles SE of you. As far as waiting goes, I get all of the Cincinnati stations , but my antenna is pointed at Cincinnati. The Dayton stations are close enough, I still receive them without pointing the antenna at them. (I do get occasional drop outs though.)

Glad to hear the wife likes it! That's half of the battle out of the way!

Good luck...
post #171 of 6610
Thread Starter 
An answer to my e-mail to Fred Stone, Chief Engineer of WPTD (PBS, Analog 16, Digital 58) inquiring about DTV (and HDTV):

ThinkTV will inaugurate its digital television service in Dayton on May 1st.
Although WPTD will transmit on Channel 58, digital television receivers will display it at Channel 16 (16-1) along with our current analog signal (16-0). During multichannel operations, the additional "standard definition" channels will be found on 16-2, 16-3 and 16-4. ThinkTV16 will be fully operational with multichannels in the Fall--probably around September 1.

Thank you for your query and thank you for watching ThinkTV.

post #172 of 6610
Evan - I think I will have to swing things around for the Super Bowl, and as you say, I might have enough power in the back lobe, to keep it in place!

As far as the wife goes - she's been begging for HDTV for a while now. I kept telling her all the usual reasons to hold off. On January 1, 2003, Morris had a 24 month no-interest sale. Thats all we needed to hear! The time has come! I'm training her well - she knows about avoiding those black bars!

Lets hope WDTN gets their act together!

post #173 of 6610
According to FCC site, WDTN-DT's STA was recently granted on 1/14/2003.

The following quote is what WDTN told FCC in the exhibit attached to their 2nd CP extension app from December :

"WDTN requests a brief extension of time to complete construction and file a license application for WDTN-DT. The DTV station is constructed and ready to begin operation as soon as WDTN's STA is issued".

The entire exhibit explaining why they needed add'l time is here (requires PDF)


WDTN-DT's 2nd CP Extension was Granted By FCC, it expires on 6/16/2003. It SHOULD be a moot point however, since they have filed for an STA, and specifically told FCC that they would using the STA, basically ASAP.

Sooo, granted, it doesn't specifically say "we'll start transmitting as soon as we get the STA", but, for all intents and purposes, it certianly seems like that is what they are saying, and it should be the case.


In the exhibit attached with WBDT-DT's 2nd CP extension app, WBDT-DT also attached a letter from Thales, their transmitter manufacturer. This is a portion of what it says, the letter from Thales says basically the same thing:

"Thales has informed WBDT-DT that they do expect to have the installation and commissioning of the transmitter completed by January 15, 2003" ....

Full exhibit #1, including the letter from thales on pg. 2 are here(requires PDF):


Exhibit 2, with info that indicates that antenna and feedline are installed, Transmitter is on site, installation of the Transmitter and other equipment were to have began in Early October/etc:


WBDT-DT's 2nd CP extension was Granted by FCC, it expires on 5/26/2003. However, it seems to me they should be on the air as soon as the transmitter is commissioned. I suppose the Key word here per the info mentioned above in WBDT's case is "Expect", which I suppose could also mean in reality, since they have until 5/26/2003, we may not see them until 5/27/2003.


If we don't see these stations soon, I'll send them a email or letter and ask them about the above and HD.
post #174 of 6610

WDTN-DT is on the air! Just saw them switch on the transmitter at 2:20PM!

Update: Getting a strong signal here(13 Miles SW of their tower) from WDTN-DT.

WDTN-DT 50 is remapping to 2-1 on a HDV420, and currently running a single subchannel. Currently appears to be the "standard" 4x3 programming being upconverted to either 720p or 1080i with black bars on the sides.
post #175 of 6610
Nice catch Jeff!

post #176 of 6610

It actually sort of startled me, I was sitting here working, thinking I had turned off the DTV receiver, I had the video monitor off, but, I have one of the Audio outs from the reciever going through a small mixing board(etc, etc, etc, blah blah blah), and I jumped a couple of inches out of my chair when the audio suddenly came up at 2:20pm!

More surprising was that the thing was actually tuned to Channel 50 at the time!

Oh yeah, I emailed them a signal report, and would encourage other's here to do the same ...Don't really know if this is the best place to send it, but I Sent mine to:

post #177 of 6610
post #178 of 6610
I just received the following email from Mike Deweese at WDTN:

Just a quick note to inform you we are on the air with our channel 50 digital television. There will be some high definition programming in prime time. We have plans to air Super Bowl in HDTV on January 26, 2003.
post #179 of 6610
post #180 of 6610

Originally posted by buckeye1010

ABC HD too! They did the switch perfectly the 1st time, Right at 8pm ...

Looks great too

Thanks WDTN!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Local HDTV Info and Reception
AVS › AVS Forum › HDTV › Local HDTV Info and Reception › Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV