Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - Page 7

Jeff,
Can't comment on WDTN's PQ,but did lock on enough to make a "legal ID",with video/audio.The LP in Indy on 50 makes it a little tougher.Right at 71mi from here.

DTV log #73

WWHO 53 S/F but not a peep on DT-46,with WTHR DT on the same channel.Dxing is getting to be more of a challenge every day.Oh well,it's still fun!

PS,WKOI on 39 is consistent here,but it's very weak.Around 39-42 on the DTC.

Later,
GregB

Greg,

Congrats on the new log! That an excellent catch considering the present conditons I'm seeing and your distance.

I think you'll like the WDTN PQ when you get a chance to see it.

Besides the "balancing and trade offs act" it has always been to DX from here, Dx'ing is also becoming more difficult here too. Mainly, I'm really, really looking forward to analog shutoff. I counted up the locals earlier tonite, there are now 32 of them, 12 DTV's and 20 analogs most of them are very strong. Local #33, WRCX-LP Dayton still doesn't appear to have made it back to the airwaves after being booted off 51 by WKEF-DT, and I'm not positive, but I don't think W66AQ Dayton is on the air any longer. I have 3 Semi-locals on Low-VHF too, although I don't know exactly why I call them "semi-locals" as I see WAVE, WCMH and WSYX all the time, WRTV 6 and WTTV 4 are there quite often too. Generally speaking, at least those don't hurt my Es logs on 3,4+6 too much, unless the tropo coincides with Es, which does seem to happen quite often. Thank goodness for directional antennas and the few LP stations I can steer around if the DX is coming from the right direction!

I think I've missed some good chances at WWHO 46(69 Miles) in the last few months(It would probably help if I didn't leave the antenna aimed South most of the time), but I haven't seen them here yet either and 46 is clean in that direction. My antenna is looking at ground about 300ft away in that direction, although I do usually see 53 quite often, although not lately.

Thought it would remain dead as a doornail tonight, but I'm seeing a little stuff going on here too. Things seem a bit unstable on Hi-VHF tonight, but WKYT-DT is close to a lock at times. Analog UHF's from Lex, Lou and Columbus are solid but generally quite weak, seems perhaps a bit more stable on mid-hi band UHF. Seeing a little of the familiar CCI to WCVN from WPXK Jellico too, although I'm not seeing much of anything from WBXX 20 Crossville, TN or from WKSO with WXIX off air now.

It is hard to gauge from here what is really "going on" many times, I'm guessing it's one of those "in all directions but very weak" sort of nights. My only truly terrain issue free directions are Directly South within about 10 degrees "width" or so, and ENE also within about 10 degree "width" or so -- This is due to the way the stream course runs which carved the little valley I'm in. W and NW is the worst, with terrain rising almost 300FT above my antenna within a few miles, Directly North and east towards WWHO is pretty bad too.

Take it easy,

I wonder if a bunch of us Daytonites could get together to tour a TV studio - with an emphaisis on technology and HD? I know my wife and I would be up for it. Thoughts?

-Buckeye1010

Jeff,

Maybe it's just me,but I've noticed all of the UHF channels seem to be *snowier* than they were a couple years ago.Do you think a strong DT channel,or a combination of strong ones, could bleed snow further than one adjacent channel?

Let me know when you want to get started on that 300ft tower.I'll be right over!
GregB

gindie - on my Mits 55511, I had 50 previously punched into the memory. When I surfed yesterday, 50 was gone, and there was a 2.01.

-Buckeye1010

WDTN-DT does strange things with my Dish 6000. From the "Add Local Channel" menu I punch in 50 and it locks the signal. The local channel listing shows two subchannels 2-1 and 2-2. I manually select 2-1 with no problems. But if I manually select 2-2, the screen locks up for about three seconds and comes back as 50-1. The other times it exhibits this behavior is when a station has switched off its PSIP. But if I readd WDTN-DT it goes back to showing 2-1 and 2-2.

I suspect WDTN-DT is sending PSIP data that is confusing the receiver.

jim

I don't get a 2.02 - just 2.01 (as of last night)

-Buckeye1010

It remaps to 2-1 on the HDV 420 here it doesn't "do" program guides, I have remapping/program guides turned off on the DTC-100, and I get 50-2 on it.


Greg,

It's amazing how complicated a subject "noise" can be!

My guess is(and it's just a guess), Theoritically and generally speaking, unless a DTV transmitting facility is "on the fritz" and is putting out "stuff" where it isn't supposed to be I wouldn't think so, at least in a "perfect" world with such things as tuners that are "perfectly" selective, where extremely strong signals didn't overload tuners and preamps, and preamps didn't add a little noise in the mix to begin with.

On the other hand, (I thought it was me too) things do seem to look a little noisier here these days pretty much everywhere on the "clean" channels, and of course we don't live in a "perfect world". I haven't seen anything new here except CCI* that can directly be "pinned" on such and such new station coming on the air, and I haven't seen that the newer local DT's coming on the air on adjacent, or nearly adjacent channels affect the other locals in any way nor have I been able to directly attribute more noise on the "clean" channels to any of the new locals coming on the air. Anyhow, I suppose with so much RF flying around and with more to come, in the real world, in many circumstances I think things are just bound to be noisier. My guess is, things will "quiet down again" after analog shut off.

* - Such as "sparkles" most likely from WUAB-DT often seen as CCI to WTTE -- the sparkles were never there before WUAB-DT hit the airwaves, but are present just about anytime I see WTTE nowadays.

I do know that if one's receiver and antenna is in the middle of "nowhere", it certianly seems to get much, much less noisier all around. I haven't been to such a spot in a few years, but, I know of one such area, in and around Blue Creek, Ohio. There are only a few TV transmitters(the close ones aren't extroidanarily high powered ones either) closer than 75 miles. From a spot on a ridge(1160FT ASL) there, in the middle of the forest using a small Yagi(no preamp) mounted on a fence post, just about everything within 75 miles(Cincy, Morehead, KYHuntington, WV/etc) are locals, and the Dayton and Columbus VHF's(90 Miles) are locals. And, the "snow" is much, much less noisier over there, even when using the cheap tuner on a $20 portable Black and white TV.

In 1998, From an even "quieter" spot at "the cabin" near that location(1/2 mile away and down the hill, at 800FT ASL), a spot which has far more significant terrain issues than I have here although I didn't "offically" log it, I pulled in my most distant tropo catch so far, with the same cheap B&W TV and a small, hand rotatable Yagi 15' above ground. That catch was, KLVY 11, Fargo, ND, a little over 900 Miles from that location. Also, on that same evening, I saw many other stations with perfect quality, Including Indy, Louisville and Terre Haute. Had perfect reception from WKMJ 68 all night, that being the first time I had seen WKMJ. Granted, I think it was a "Super Tropo" from the West sort of evening, but I was still surprised Because of the terrain blockage issues in every direction "down in the holler" there, only WLWT 5 Cincy(76 Miles) and WSAZ 3 Huntington are locals(and just barely), WDTN 2 semi-local. The hills even block a station from 12 miles away, WPBO 42 Portsmouth.

There is also a ridge nearby there which is among the highest spots in Ohio at around 1320FT ASL, the ridge is actually cleared off, and has farms, and houses with TV antennas on top ... That, or a similar location is where I would like to put my tower(s) for Dx'ing someday!

Anyhow, I'd really like to see a VHF/UHF noise study performed with sensitive equipment, and concerning the increasing amount of RF present from NTSC and ATSC stations. At the very least, It seems such a study would be a very difficult undertaking, in order to distinguish CC noise from other sources/etc, since stations from 100's of miles away can and certianly do often raise noise levels a bit on the channel they are broadcasting on, even under dead band conditions.

Getting WDTN-DT 50 here in Grovetuckey with very few dropouts. Must be about 60 miles. WSYX-DT in Columbus is low power and has more dropouts. They are not presently broadcasting HD but that may change as soon as tonight. Can't wait to see Drew HD and 5.1

Hello all.

I just received the following email from the chief engineer at WDTN that you may be interested in reading:


Mike DeWeese forwarded your e-mail to me concerning our DT signal. I
was not aware that a local forum addressing HDTV existed. I read a few
of the most recent archived messages. I perceive some warranted
frustration on behalf of viewers due to the delays preventing WDTN-DT
to begin broadcasting. I regret if those delays gave anyone the
impression that WDTN was not actively engaged in the migration to
digital television. The owner of WDTN is totally dedicated to the
ideals involved in new technology and have supported our efforts to
serve our viewers to the very best standard possible. Any and all
delays are my responsibility. I mitigated the delays due to my desire
to broadcast the best digital signal possible.
I would enjoy the opportunity to discuss the entire digital process
with you and all other viewers that are interested. If you and others
want to take a tour of WDTN, just call the station and we can set it up
at a convenient time for all involved.
I like the pictures of WISH that are posted on the forum. I can show
you how all that integrates into our station here in Dayton.
Thanks again for your signal report and please encourage all to e-mail
their reports to me.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon,


Jim Atkinson
Chief Engineer
WDTN
WDTN-DT

atkinson@wdtn.com

I'm getting wdtn-dt on my samsung on indoor antenna. Good signal and no pixel breakup . No secondary ch. however

Richard

Hi Gang

I encourage you all to send your reception reports to Jim Atkinson, his email address is a couple messages above this one. I just exchanged a nice email with him. He wants to hear from us.

He says that they do plan to transmit a 50-2 SD, resulting in only a slight reduction in data rate on 50-1 to 14.5. Ther reason it's not up yet is a manufacturing problem, which was promised to be fixed on Monday. He says for the Super Bowl, they will forego the 50-2 and transmitt 50-1 at the entire 19.3 data rate.

Do we want to do a group tour of WDTN?

-Buckeye1010

I sent a report to WDTN about being able to receive their signal. Received a nice response from Mr. Atkinson
____________________________________________________
Thanks for the signal report. We will broadcast all ABC HD and are
upconverting our NTSC to 720P when ABC is not HD.

Thanks again,

Jim Atkinson
Chief Engineer
WDTN
______________________________________________

Paul and all,

Thanks for the info from WDTN's CE, and for sending your signal reports. I'm sure he's happy to hear their signal makes it to portions of the Columbus area.

I've been busy here, and haven't had a chance to watch much, but I'm really interested in seeing what HD 720p they are sending looks like, since AFAIK, none of the other local stations send out 720p natively, I think even WCPO-DT Cincy is still upconverting to 1080i. I did notice that WDTN-DT upconverts look Very good.

I'll also send their CE a note here in a bit. I probably won't be able to "make the tour" anytime soon, but I think it would be very interesting, for those who do go, make sure to tell the rest of us about it!

I am watching the game here on CBS 41.1 and I have noticed a couple of things. First off, I am watching on a Sony HD100 receiver on a Pioneer Elite 730HD. It looks incredible! I have noticed that the blues and yellows are really bright. The goal posts on extra point kicks jump out at you. There were some guys in blue jackets and black/yellow stripe vests that were crazy bright. Is this normal or is it just that my TV is brand new out of the box and not calibrated yet?

Second question: during certain camera angles I can see almost like a pixelated picture. I notice it most of the time on a close up of a player. The player is clear but the background is a little pixelated. It is not bad but noticeable.

Third question: When they switch cameras the picture is slightly pixelated for about 1-2 seconds and then it clears up. This is only when the cameras change. Is this a broadcast thing or is it the receiver being a little slow to decode?

Fourth and final question: It seemed like there was a camera on the sidelines that always had the bars on the sides. Is this because the camera is not and HD camera? On that note and this may be something for another part of the forums but why are the bars on the sides?

Regnus,

#1 - Concerning the "Bright Stuff" you were seeing, just a guess, but you might want to adjust your Picture settings a bit, i.e. Turn down the Contrast/brightness("Picture/Black Level/etc) to the level that looks best. The "default" settings your TV is set to is most likely what we call "Torch Mode", which pretty much also means "Burn out my phosphors quicker, and give me uneven phosphor wear with the Black bars/etc. This sort of "Torch Mode" is really only useful in very bright areas such as what you get in a retail establishment where TV's are sold.

#2+3 - This is due to the fact that WHIO-DT doesn't allocate the Full bandwidth "avalible" to HD on 41-1, and that Fast action, high detail/etc. HD Video requires more bandwidth than the "usual" filmed stuff you see on CBS. What you are seeing are compression artifacts. Instead of giving it the 19.39Mb/s NECESSARY for HD Video, they "sqeeze" the bandwidth to somewhat less than that, my guess is 14-15Mb/s or so, in order to fit in a 2nd Subchannel of SD (41-2), and they also may be doing some sort of datacasting. We've discussed this earlier, and I provided a link to the Cincy thread where we were discussing it in more detail. Although WKRC-DT Cincy CBS does the same, It looks better than on WHIO-DT, so I watched WKRC-DT tonight instead, as usual. I believe, WBNS-DT 21 Columbus allocates the full 19.39 Mb/s to HD, if this is still the case, my guess is, you wouldn't have seen the pixelization on WBNS-DT.

#4 - Yes, the reason one of the cameras on the sidelines had the bars was because it was not an HD Camera, and, also probably because it was a Wireless Camera which for some reason didn't provide video in a 16x9 frame, thus, you get a 4x3 frame with black bars on the sides. At least, the more attractive sideline announcer had a HDCAM though There were also cameras used in the end zones etc. which were also SD, although they were used in 16x9 widescreen mode. However, most of what you saw was via "real" HD Cameras, in real HD.

Hope this helps, I enjoyed the game in HD tonight as well. For a long time there(over a year since I had gotten HD), I thought I'd Never see a NFL game in HD! I'm hoping for a bit better game for the Superbowl though, We had a run of Great Games there for a while that are going to be hard to "beat!" Fiesta Bowl, Browns Vs. Bucks, SF VS NYG(the last part anyway), and last Week Tenn Vs. Pittsburg.

Jeff

At least the Superbowl should look good considering there will be no sub-channel on WDTN-DT. Maybe some of the other stations could learn a thing or two about giving the full bandwidth to HD. We bought our HD equipment for the PQ but I don't think some people realize that. I really don't understand the reasoning behind a sub-channel with nothing but a SD simulcast.

I just received a response from WBDT-DT concerning my inquiry asking them about on-air date and if they would have HD. This is the reply I received:

Jeff,

Although I'm not the expert person to answer your questions....I'll answer what I know then pass along your email to the person that knows best.

I think we plan to have our digital signal up by May. But unfortunately...we won't be HD yet. But emails like yours will help convince all concerned that we need to get the HD going. I personally want it too.

So, feel free to tell anybody you know to write into the station regarding this matter. The more the better.

Thanks,

Chris Iller
Dayton's WB26 Promotions

------------------------------------------

Soo, by all means folks, send these guys a note, letter, or give them a call letting them know you want HD from the WB and WBDT-DT! The email address I used was:

questions@wb26tv.com

Other Contact Info:

WB26 WBDT-TV
2589 Corporate Place
Miamisburg, OH 45342
937-384-9226
937-384-7392

Thier website is here:

http://www.wb26tv.com/index.asp

-------------------------------------------------

Mr. Iller has been quite helpful concerning my previous inquiries, and I appreciate his interest, in HD especially. As we know, WB Cincy Digital Does not offer HD from the WB currently nor do we know their future plans for HD since I don't believe anyone has received a response from them, which leaves us Dayton/Cincy folks pretty much in the dark for WB HD, except for a few who live farther "east" and may have a shot at WWHO-DT 46 Chillicothe.

Thanks,

Along with my signal report and other comments I recently sent WDTN-DT's CE, I also asked if WDTN-DT would be doing DD 5.1 anytime soon, as well as inviting him to Join us here on the forum whenever possible. This is a portion of his reply:

"Yes, I will attend the forum as time permits. I am in the process of converting all of our news acquisition to DVCPRO from Beta and the centralcasting install on our end.
Yes, we will broadcast surround very soon.

Thanks again,

Jim"

----------------------------------------------

Does it get "any better" than this? Thanks Jim and WDTN-DT!

I hope some of you caught the ABC movie 'The Rock' on WDTN-DT last night. The picture quality was absolutely amazing! It was nice seeing very fast moving scenes without motion artifacts. I couldn't detect even one flaw. OUTSTANDING! Many thanks to the folks at WDTN!

I saw it, great demostration of HD quality. Hat's off to ABC and WDTN.
BTW: I have yet to recieve anything in 5.1, is it just me. Has anyone in the local area received any 5.1. ?
I am assuming that everything I can receive is just broadcast in stereo, and it's not my setup.

Jon

Yes - the Rock last night on WDTN DT was superb looking! WOW! If I recall, they had their .02 turned off, to make the true HD signal look better. Hats off to controlled quality! They did have a .02 SD signal up yesterday, for the first time but it still had the black bars (when I saw it)

A few things I have noticed, I'd be interested in hearing from others on these:

1) WRGT-DT - channel 30 appears to be down?

2) When WRGT-DT - channel 30 has been up, the PQ has not been very good (very dark, for one thing). I realize they are only doing 480i, normal SD, but when I compare it to analog WRGT ch45, I seem to get a better PQ there. Is it just me?

3) WKEF-DT - channel 51.02 has the audio balanced to the right side. Is it just me?

-Buckeye1010

Buckeye,

I wasn't receiving anything from WRGT-DT last night. Their pq does look better to me on analog 45 also. They seem to be having problems keeping both transmitters running lately.

WKEF-DT-2 does have the audio balanced to the right side.

Paul

WRGT-DT looks way too dark to me too, not much reason to watch it except for the times that the analog has been off the air or at very low power over the last month or so.

I wish they would do Fox Widescreen though, It would be nice not to have to rely on WXIX-DT! I asked them and Sinclair about Fox Widescreen several times, and never received an answer.

I compared "The Rock" last night between WCPO-DT and WDTN-DT, and It looked just a little sharper on WCPO-DT, my guess is because WCPO-DT upconverts to 1080i(I THINK they still do at least), which probably does a little better job of it than the upconverters in our setups do, as most of us have displays that do 1080i natively, but not 720p .... It really wasn't much of a difference though. I've also noticed that the non-HD on WDTN-DT has the best looking PQ of any upconvert out there! On a "old fashioned" SD set, it is honestly the best PQ I've ever seen on it.

Everyone send those letters into WBDT-DT and let them know we want HD from the WB !(see my post on last page concerning this matter)


The Only station I've seen Do DD 5.1 in Dayton/Cinci is WCET-DT 34 Cincinnati. Per my post on the last page concerning info from their CE, it looks like WDTN-DT will be doing DD 5.1 sometime soon.

Now that all of the major networks are broadcasting OTA in Dayton, does anyone know when Dayton TimeWarner Cable will begin to carry the HD versions of these networks? A

Was switching between WDTN-DT/WCPO-DT for MI (No lipsynch problem on WCPO-DT - They do DD 2.0/prologic only), and noticed that WDTN was able to get the lip-synch issue straightened out after a while.

My audio receiver was also indicating DD 5.1 from WDTN-DT tonight during the ABC feed, (switches to DD2.0 during local ad inserts) way to go WDTN :-)

Update: Oh yeah, it was great to see MI in OAR 2.35:1 as well! Looks like it might have been a national issue for at least the ABC east coast HD feed concerning only the front two channels of audio "via DD 5.1" tonight, per this thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1

And this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=218389