Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - Page 2

Yes, but are we really missing that much with WRGT-DT being off the air? I don't think so! Just what the world needs--another standard def digital channel. IMHO, if it's one or the other, I think they've got the right one up and running now.

Let me try this again. WRGT-DT DOES have some sort of signal on the air. They are using the power for both transmitters. But there is something WRONG with the signal(just as it was for WKEF-DT last week) and our Digital Receivers can't detect it!

Meant to put in my last post that I emailed them about the problem last night, still haven't heard back from them.

I also really could care less about the SD from WRGT-DT, as the analog looks better. It shouldn't but it does.

Does anyone else notice blue vertical lines in WHIO-DTs picture?

I've noticed this several times, but always forget to ask.

During dark scenes, I get 3-4 thin vertical lines in the lower left quadrant of the screen. If you think of the 4:3 black bars for scale, the first line is just inside the frame on 4:3 material, and the rest are spaced about a half black bar apart.

WHIO-DT is the only station that does this, and they only show up on black material.

hmmmm.....

Evan,

Haven't seen anything like that on WHIO-DT, or the "video noise" you had mentioned in an earlier post that you were seeing from WCP0-DT the other night, but I might not have been viewing those stations at the "right time". Did notice WHIO-DT didn't have CBS HD last night at 10, WKRC-DT did.

Did see some weird "Ghosting of blue colors" from WKEF-DT's HD during one of the triple crown races that wasn't present from WLWT-DT, so "stuff like that" is possibly coming from the stations although I would suspect it to be rare.

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On another matter, I got through to "someone" at Sinclair concerning WRGT-DT's difficulties now and WKEF-DT's last week, hopefully something will come of it. As mentioned before by Paul, it's "no big deal" that we can't see WRGT-DT SD right now, but I'm trying to follow through on the issue so hopefully the same thing doesn't happen again at WKEF-DT, or if WRGT-DT ever gets around to doing Fox ED.

If I understood it correctly, The Sinclair person I spoke to did mention that we have the station(WKEF-DT) to thank for taking the initiative for providing HD, so WKEF-DT people if you're listening , Thanks a million!

Evan,

Yes, you aren't the only one that's seeing this. I'm glad to hear you say you're seeing it, too! I keep forgetting to ask about it myself. I thought maybe it was just something in my STB.

Paul

Strange on the WHIO-DT lines. I just watched about all of ET and am now watching Survivor on WHIO-DT, and haven't seen them, even when it's dark/black. (RCA F38310/Internal receiver fairly equivilent to DTC100 for OTA reception). I wonder what the difference is that you guys are seeing it and I'm not ... I did see a "moire"(or whatever you might call it - kinda like looking through a windowscreen) pattern during ET however.

Spoke with WKEF/WRGT CE today, during our converstation he mentioned ER would be in HD tonight :-). Really enjoyed our conversation and getting a bit of his perspective. Seems like a great guy. He said they would soon be installing a new PSIP generator they've just received, not sure if it's for one station or both.

One thing I gathered from our converstion, I think there is a lot more involved on the station's end for DTV transmission/HD pass through than what I had previously imagined, especially at this stage of the game. As I have suspected, I think most of these stations want to get out the best signal/HD service/etc. they can, but I think all sorts of problems of difficulties can occur.

Jeff/Paul,

I haven't had a chance to reconnect my antenna to my RCA F38310 to see if the lines are there. I don't remember seeing them before on that set. My main setup is a hughes E86 connected to a pioneer pro-710HD. It is very noticeable on that set.

I'll try and call WHIO today, now that I know it's not me

The new NBC Show "American Dreams" Looks good in HD on WKEF-DT! Thanks again WKEF-DT!

WLWT-DT Cincy appears to be off air.

Too much HD tonight!

I'm wondering if WKEF-DT boosted power again? I've noticed my signal strength has been higher.

I missed American Dreams, but I did catch the Sopranos on HBOHD last night!

I agree, I think it's time to start looking a building a HD-PVR....

Looks like WRGT-DT finally got their problem straightend out, I'm seeing them again now at 5:30pm, and the audio tone I was hearing that was present on 30 is now gone.

Evan, haven't noticed any change from WKEF-DT since they've lowered power. I have really no way of measuring signal strength besides how far I can rotate antenna off target and still receive the station --- I never tested this with WKEF/WRGT before they lowered power, so I wouldn't be able to compare the change in actual signal strength.

In any event, with my hi-gain antenna there was no change in readings(those aren't signal strength readings) from my receiver after WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT lowered power, on my lo-gain antenna, readings from both stations dropped a few points but I still receive perfect DTV reception from both as long as nothing else is "wrong" with their signals, or if they are off air.

WKEF-DT seemed a little slow with NBC HD tonight, as it wasn't there at 8, but was sometime afterward (Thanks if someone called them!)

Leno is HD too, I'm not a big Leno fan, but there's a guest I want to see tonite :-)

BTW, Hard to tell, but I think WRGT-DT's SD looks a little better than it used to... Now if they'd only do Fox ED ...

It appears WRGT has done us a great service and got their SD up and running again (). Just curious if anyone is receiving anything on their sub-channel, 30-2. I'm showing a signal there but the receiver just flashes up the 'no signal' banner.

Just a "blank" on 30-2 here Paul, was seeing that before they had their problem as well -- BTW, their CE told me yesterday it was a problem with their exciter, which I believe is the "thing" just before the transmitter which "sends" the signal into the transmitter/antenna system and may have a bit to do with what frequency/etc. the signal is transmitted on.

Would be nice if they'd put UPN or something on 30-2 though, even if they had FOX ED there would still be plenty of "room" for something non-HD on the 2nd subchannel.

HD looked good from WKEF-DT last night, Leno is even doing some of his "on the street" stuff in HD now. Wish they'd have more female guests though ...

My Hughes E86 locks on 30-2 then shows me old fashioned analog snow! I even get the old fashioned noise to go with it!

Usually, it will say "channel unavailable" if there's not a signal.

Evan,

That's an interesting feature ;-)

On 30-2, do you still get indications from your receiver's "meter" of a digital signal as it is in my case? I get a lock on 30-2, same indication from meter as on 30-1, but 30-2 is a blank screen. Or is it, I suppose, switching to the NTSC tuner+displaying what is visable on 30 analog wise? Digital Subchannels are a feature of PSIP/etc, any programming contained on multiple subchannels is included in the same signal, on channel 30 in this case.

Also, If you tune to say, 50, 40 or 62, do you just get a blank screen and "channel unavailable"(which I think is what you are saying), or do you see the old fashioned snow and noise? If you do see the snow, does 40+50 look any different than 62? (WRCX-LP Dayton may be transmitting on 40 now however, although I haven't seen them yet)

"Normally", when a proper digital(8VSB) signal is being received on an analog non-screen blanking TV, old fashioned snow+"white noise" would be all you would see on a channel that a digital station is broadcasting on.

Depending upon how the NTSC tuner(might be specific to the set being used) uses it's AFT(automatic fine tuning) feature, you may be able to see an indication of a digital station broadcasting on a channel directly adjacent to the channel you are tuned to in the form of "big, noisy looking" snow. I see this if tuned to 1st adjacent channel below a digital in the case of one of my analog TV's, but only if there is no other station (digital or analog), or "interference" on the channel right below the digital.

Jeff,

The E86 signal meter only shows the main channel level. As I understand it, the sub channels are just framed with the address of the sub-channel?

The E86 blanks all of the low signal stations (just like the F38310/DTC100.) Usually I get a black screenon low signal channels, but its threshold is just a little bit lower than the RCA. I'm guessing something is fooling the E86 and its not blanking the picture. Either that, or fox has a new format. Maybe they could call it fox-ULD "Ultra-Low-Definition."

30-2 seems to be the only channel that does it. I don't get anything on other adjacent channels.

Speaking of other channels, I keep checking 50. Anyone see anything on WDTN-DT yet? Any test signal yet?

Evan,

You crack me up!



I keep checking and hoping, but I haven't seen anything yet. What I would give to be able to get an ABC affiliate.

Paul

Yes, I think you're thinking about it right. Take 51-1 and 51-2 for example. If I'm thinking about this right(think I'm fairly close anyway), All that programming is basically in the same datastream sent with the 1 signal from WKEF-DT, but something at the station is added (via a PSIP function I think) to let your receiver know which "bits" go to which subchannels. Earlier in the summer, I occasionally saw both WKEF and WRGT digitals put out a strong signal my receiver could recognize on 30 and 51, and yet the receiver couldn't even get a lock on any of their subchannels(30-1+2, or 51-1+2) because I think the "right info" wasn't sent with the bitstream in order for my receiver to get a lock on the subchannels+display programming.


That would be my guess too ... Perhaps it's expecting information in the datastream to be "assigned" to 30-2, but isn't getting anything, so is defaulting to NTSC tuner and yet for some reason is not giving you the normal screen blanking function.


LOL! That's the ticket!


Lately, I've been seeing something similar on WCVN-DT 24 in N. KY -- During an autoscan, my receiver finds "something" on 24-10, and it goes "through" 24-10 when doing a channel surf, reciever shows a signal just as it does on the lockable(all with programming!) 24-3~24-6 Subchannels, but it doesn't get a lock on 24-10 in contrast to 30-2 with WRGT-DT. This is with my "off-air Guides"(channel remapping/program guide info/auto time set) turned off. With "off air guides turned on, the "viewable" subchannels remap to 54-1~54-4 alongside their analog on 54, and the "blank one" doesn't show up as it does on 24-10 without remap.

WKEF/WRGT CE did tell me they were planning on installing a new PSIP generator soon that would help STB's detect their station's better, perhaps the 30-2 will disappear then, and channels might remap as well.



Nothing seen here, according to Paul's post, we probably won't see them until Nov 1. I suppose they might put a test signal on the air before that(If they haven't already at 3am or something when we weren't looking), but keep in mind they can test everything except the antenna/transmission line by running the signal from the transmitter into something called a "dummy load".

I'm looking forward though to seeing some new signals on the air soon! For more HD surely, but I was also like a kid at Christmas when I first saw WCVN-DT shortly after their sign-on in late January, and when WKEF-DT came on early for Olympics, then signed back off, then WRCX-LP came back and signed off 51 permanantly at 12am on 5/1/02, and then WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT signed on in the morning on 5/1/02. Must be sorta what it was like back in the 40's and 50's, It's neat to see "new stuff" after seeing the same analog stations for years and years.

Oh yeah guys, for "shorthand" I referred to a "digital" signal above, but signals(Energy at Radio Frequency wavelengths - "RF" for short) aren't "digital" or "analog", only the information contained in them is.

I agree with the kid at Christmas feeling. I mentioned that to my wife last night, while she was making fun of me for complaining about the WHIO-DT blue lines. (Which reminds me - gotta call them today.)

Good night of Dayton HD last night (both CSI & ER.)

CSI seemed softer than usual, and there were a couple of shots with heavy artifacts during the initial casino scenes. The picture looked identical on WHIO-DT and WKRC-DT, so it wasn't the station. Must have been the CBS feed or the source material.

ER looked good. Sure was a nice of NBC to give us HD at the last minute. I just wish WKEF-DT would turn up the juice. I get WHIO-DT with my VU-190 pointed at the Cincinnati towers - 125 degrees away from the source! I have to switch to the RS-D-bowtie to get WKEF-DT.

Called WHIO-DT on Friday and talked to an engineer about the blue lines. I'm not sure if he believed me or not! I took a picture and emailed it to him, but I haven't heard anything back yet. I'll try and remember to take a picture during CSI Miami tonight. If I get a good one I'll post it here.

Also, I invited the engineer (Steve Hardy) to join this forum. I sent him a link, hopefully he can join us....

Good man Evan! I know all about the "believeability" issue. These guys are so used to dealing with "kooks and morons" calling the station, but they need to(and should) understand that in most circumstances I think, this HD+DTV thing is a different matter entirely -- especially for those of us who forked out the $ expecting the same type of service from digital channels that you see from analogs. And besides, We want our HDTV!

I realize the engineering guys are having to do double duty by having 2 stations on air instead of 1, but it certianly can be very frustrating for us. If FCC could more closely monitor some of the stuff that goes on, I'm sure they wouldn't like it either. IMHO that's exactly the sort of thing they should be doing more of, instead of their interest in auctioning off EM Spectrum ... To me, it's kinda like auctioning off the air that provides lift for aircraft. Oh well.

Things should get much better once the analogs go off air. It seems to me, "common sense wisdom" would indicate that broadcasters should be looking forward to the day they shut off their analogs, and that they should be doing everything they can to hasten the transistion instead of viewing their digital stations as a nuisance, which sometimes seems to be the case.

Noticed WRGT-DT was off air for a couple of days(really off air this time), but is back now with their SD. Just checked "Crossing Jordan" from WKEF-DT, and it's SD. Sigh. Wonder if it's a network issue, as I'm sure it was last night for "Boomtown", or a problem at the station. Will be glad when WLWT-DT Cincy gets back on air, it really is nice to have a backup especially with all this new NBC HD stuff. This sort of backup doesn't yet work as good as it does in "Star Trek" , but it's better than nothing.

In addition to the blue lines (which I can live with), it is getting quite annoying the way WHIO-DT drops off the air for a couple seconds. It happens every 5-10 minutes. I thought maybe they would get that problem figured out considering it's been happening for months. It's to the point now where I won't watch them during prime time. WKRC-DT seems to be a lot more reliable.

Yes! I had found out back in December that I wasn't the only one seeing the "stopwatchable dropouts to 0" every 5-10 minutes on WHIO-DT! Sometimes when it happens, they are off air for more than just a few seconds also.

I haven't noticed the "stopwatchable dropouts" in quite a while from WHIO-DT, but that may be because I watch WKRC-DT most of the time! I did watch most of the game on Sat. without seeing it however.

After insuring it wasn't a problem with my setup or a reception problem, I asked them/told them about this issue back in DEC 2001 and never received a response. For that reason, and the fact that WKRC-DT usually does such a good job, I've pretty much neglected trying to contact them again.

I'm seeing a problem with WKEF-DT now. Beginning last night sometime, I'm getting a strong signal, and readings as normal, but my receiver won't lock on 51-1~2. My guess is it's a PSIP issue at the station, it may be specific to certian receivers. Have seen this happen a number of times last summer. I told them about it, hopefully they'll pay attention this time.

I'm also having problems with WXIX-DT since last night, either something is increasing noise level on 29, or they are running at very low power. Currently getting readings in the mid 50's (normally they are in the 80's), and a lock, but just a blank screen. Usually, my receiver locks with a 29 reading, and produces pretty much dropout free reception if it hits a 40 reading.

Sigh.

Update:

I've figured out the WXIX-DT problem I was having that was mentioned above. It was most likely tropo interference, from a KET analog that broadcasts on 29(WKSO) out of South Central KY. As the tropo is beginning to dissipate around 11:45am, WXIX-DT video is coming back. Strange though, as I've only seen WKSO lower readings from my receiver in the past, and rarely. Once, I was lucky enough to see them when WXIX-DT went off air. Becuase the interferening station lies in the same direction as the desired local, there is really nothing I can do about it, as a "better antenna" won't help.

I also noticed that WKEF-DT is back to normal now, not sure if they did something, or if this was also tropo interference issue as well, from a 51 near Columbus. If it was a interference issue though, it's odd, as it didn't lower the readings I get from my receiver.

This sort of thing is going to be more and more of an issue as more digital stations come on line, one that won't diminish until the analogs go off air. Unfortunetly, I think most people won't know what is going on when interference from a distant station occurs.

Anyone want to make a little wager on whether WDTN will even be testing by 11/01/02?

You betting for or against?

I'm a pessimist, or a realist, however you look at it. I'm betting against! If they are testing, I doubt it'll be anything live that we can see.

Shoot!

I was hoping you were betting FOR...


No takers here!

No takers here either, although I think there is a much better chance they will be up on 11/1, unless they can give FCC a real good reason as to why they would need a 2nd extension!

WKEF-DT is off air now, CE reports that they have lost their Studio to Transmitter fiber Link to the WKEF-DT transmitter, and that they'll try to be back on air tomorrow. I would imagine that is what was causing the problems I was seeing.

So much for having a Cincy/Dayton NBC backup, LOL they are both off air now!