Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - Page 119

It was maybe a year ago or so that people in southern Montgomery County, and only certain addresses or zip codes, didn't "qualify" for Dayton locals in DirecTV's system. Let me search DDN's archives for the story. I also seem to recall it being on WDTN, in fact, as a "consumer alert" type story.

Sig SNR AGC

WDTN: 80-90 24-25 16-17

WHIO: 65-85 20-28 20

WPTD: 60-80 19-23 26-27

WKEF: 98 31-32 18

WB: 92-98 28-29 18

WGRT: 98 30-31 18


Analog 40 is fuzzy but watchable.

The antenna I linked to has the same UHF unit as the one I have now, but is an outdoor unit.

Just for reasons of good renter/rentee relationships, I'm going to choose not to do much to the exterior. I've got cable lines outside the building I've already spliced into to send the signal throughout the house, so I could do that. Mounting something relatively small and discrete in a carefull fashion might be alright. My preference would be to stay indoors.

Thanks!

(edit: so much for the formating, sorry)

I knew this might happen, but I'd better "test" things a bit more first. I hung that $4 bowtie antenna in my front window, west-facing, and am already getting higher numbers than with the HDTVi....

Snipping out some important and relevant stuff there aren't you? First off, sometimes(but not allways, especially in an apartment or condo) there are ways to get the coax through without drilling a hole if necessary.

You should have read down a little farther. While I agree it's possible a restriction which would not allow a tenant of a rented home to drill a hole through the wall may be allowable under the rules - as is explained(note the *may*, and *could be* however) here, in this section from the fact sheet :

quote :

Q: Are there restrictions that may be placed on residents of rental property?

A: Yes. A restriction necessary to prevent damage to leased property may be reasonable. For example, tenants could be prohibited from drilling holes through exterior walls or through the roof.

:end quote

Nevertheless, FCC is being very specific about this in the portion of the fact sheet you quoted for good reason. Does it say that specifically about a rented home in the section you quoted? Here's what it says in another place about this concerning WHY a restriction in drilling a hole in an apartment or condo may be allowable :

Quote:

Drilling through an exterior wall, e.g. to run the cable from the patio into the unit, is generally not within the protection of the rule because the exterior wall is generally a common element.

:end quote:

Here's as little more of it for your reading pleasure - pay close attention now :

Quote from OTARD fact sheet :

Q: Does the rule apply to residents of rental property?

A: Yes. Effective January 22, 1999, renters may install antennas within their leasehold, which means inside the dwelling or on outdoor areas that are part of the tenant's leased space and which are under the exclusive use or control of the tenant. Typically, for apartments, these areas include balconies, balcony railings, and terraces. For rented single family homes or manufactured homes which sit on rented property, these areas include the home itself and patios, yards, gardens or other similar areas. If renters do not have access to these outside areas, the tenant may install the antenna inside the rental unit. Renters are not required to obtain the consent of the landlord prior to installing an antenna in these areas. The rule does not apply to common areas, such as the roof or the exterior walls of an apartment building. Generally, balconies or patios that are shared with other people or are accessible from other units are not considered to be exclusive use areas.

Q: Are there restrictions that may be placed on residents of rental property?

A: Yes. A restriction necessary to prevent damage to leased property may be reasonable. For example, tenants could be prohibited from drilling holes through exterior walls or through the roof. However, a restriction designed to prevent ordinary wear and tear (e.g., marks, scratches, and minor damage to carpets, walls and draperies) would likely not be reasonable provided the antenna is installed wholly within the antenna user's own exclusive use area. In addition, rental property is subject to the same protection and exceptions to the rule as owned property. Thus, a landlord may impose other types of restrictions that do not impair installation, maintenance or use under the rule. The landlord may also impose restrictions necessary for safety or historic preservation.

Q: If I live in a condominium, cooperative, or other type of residence where certain areas have been designated as "common," do these rules apply to me?

A: The rules apply to residents of these types of buildings, but the rules do not permit you to install an antenna on a common area, such as a walkway, hallway, community garden, exterior wall or the roof. However, you may install the antenna wholly within a balcony, deck, patio, or other area where you have exclusive use.

Drilling through an exterior wall, e.g. to run the cable from the patio into the unit, is generally not within the protection of the rule because the exterior wall is generally a common element. You may wish to check with your retailer or installer for advice on how to install the antenna without drilling a hole. Alternatively, your landlord or association may grant permission for you to drill such a hole. The Commission's rules generally do not cover installations if you drill through a common element.

:end quote

Now, look at that last paragraph. They've even suggesting asking the landlord to grant you permission to drill a hole, and depending upon circumstances, it may or may NOT be reasonable if such a request were denied, IMO .....


I understand what you are saying about not wanting tenants to "damage" property, and I agree with that in almost all cases --- However -- think about this for a minute .... Are you also saying it would be reasonable for a landlord to not allow a hole drilled for cable, Satellite OR OTA antenna? Once they figure out what's going on, who would want to rent property where they couldn't use an outdoor antenna(if say they couldn't get adequete reception from indoors), couldn't use cable, and couldn't use satellite? And/or, How would it be OK for One(if the landlord had cable or satellite installed, but the tenant didn't choose to use it) but not the other?

Any reasonable person would conclude the same that goes for Cable or satellite installs concerning drilling of holes for the coax run, or mounting of the dish should apply to antennas as well ...

But, it's true that landlords and building owners(nor tenants for that matter) are not allways reasonable, and it's also true that drilling through an exterior wall for individual units in some cases could be "unreasonable", but those are not usually necessary for master antenna, cableTV or satellite systems in MDU's(multi-dwelling units). And, I do think it's just unfortunate more buildings do not include MATV systems to allow it's residents to be able to choose OTA use other than with an indoor antenna(or balcony antenna if they can find a way to get the coax through without drilling the hole in cases when that is "unreasonable).

IMO, it is not reasonable to force anyone to hinder their reception by being restricted from using an outdoor antenna, or to "force" anyone into subscribing to satellite and cable, or an inadequete for reception indoor antenna(sometimes it works well, but sometimes it doesn't) if they don't wish to do so. And, certianly, there are some *unreasonable* situations out there, I've lived in apartments without MATV before and even if I could have put an antenna on the balcony it would have made things worse as the balcony didn't face the towers. I got along with indoor antenna for the short time I lived there.

Oh, to clarify in case you didn't know what I was talking about -- When it comes to MDU's(multi-dwelling units), One option is MATV - master antenna system. This is what was used before cable in apartment buildings, and this is still what is used in some apartment buildings, and hosptials and the like, sometimes these days along with Satellite. Search for posts on AVSforum by "Antaltmike" he does professional installs of MATV systems in the DC+northern VA area ....

Looks like your signal strenths are more than adequete for the most part from what I've seen on my set. Concerning that, and assuming our receivers are pretty much the same in our Sony TV's from experiments I have done with adding additional attenuation in feedline/etc, especially with that low of a AGC (%) readings, and that high of an SNR, you are getting strong signals. The SNR will never go above about 33db SNR reading -- not because of signal strength, but because of "technical issues" involving how much SNR is actually "possible" to achieve on the station end for various reasons .... If it were down in the 15~18db range though, then you might want to get it higher ...

From what I have seen, AGC readings of about 35%~45%(I've never seen anything higher than about 43%, and that involved were extremely weak+distant signals), and SNR readings in the 14~17db range would generally indicate weak signals. Anything lower AGC wise, or higher SNR wise should be fine ...

If anything concerning signal strength, you might want to try to improve the readings a bit from WPTD-DT -- Since it's on channel 58, the highest frequency in use(which as I said before, the higher the frequnecy/shorter the wavelentgh can be more of an issue signal attenuation wise due to antenna being indoors, and nearby terrain/trees/etc). That would probably be the only one where higher readings might give you a little more "fade margin" which may be beneifical, even possibly(but probably not) where multipath difficulties are concerned(although, more signal strength will generally just mean stronger multipath echoes as well).

So, it still looks like it's probably multipath difficulties your dealing with instead of signal strength issues ....

yeah, right near windows can be an especially good spot. Those little UHF bowties can work great to "hide"/etc as well, especially if you've got a window facing the towers with blinds+drapes that aren't generally opened .....

When I've played around with indoor reception here, it's just amazing the difference between anywhere else in the house and right near a South(for Cincinnati) or East(Dayton) facing window. In my case, digital reception turns out to be easier from indoors, but having antenna right near a 2nd floor window facing the towers is the ONLY way to get anything even nearly approaching watchable analog signals from most stations, and honestly, even that is night and day from the pristine OTA analog+digital reception I receive with outdoor antenna setup. Big, huge, outdoor hi-gain antenna in the attic? Forget it. No way. Ghosts galore ....

Below is part of a message I posted in the "OTA" forum, but this part might be specific to our local channels:

Stations send Guide data via OTA as part of their datastream via PSIP( see www.psip.org ). Stations also send much other info via PSIP, such as Virtual channel remapping info(via PSIP VCT - virtual channel table), Auto Time/date info(via PSIP STT), and EIA-708 captions.


From what I have seen It's unfortunately generally normal from the Dayton stations for the guide info to often be missing, wrong or incomplete. And, It's been some time since I've seen any guide data whatsoever(including program descriptions) from WPTD-DT.

That's not saying it isn't also possible your receiver might have a firmware issue/etc. with full PSIP support. You'd probably want it to fully support ATSC's A65 PSIP standard ....

Most folks who are using Sat receivers+OTA never notice these issues as the EPG info usually comes from the birds instead of via PSIP stream from the OTA signal/station. Don't know the specifics about your receiver, but sounds like it's(currently anyway) using the station's PSIP stream.

FCC required about a year ago that stations fully implement PSIP via ATSC A65/B standard(including 12 hours of EPG info via PSIP EIT's), but stations seem to be having a hard time of it ....

There's been some discussion about this recently in the Cincinnati thread you may want to check out ...

Well, just sent a report via WKEF/WRGT contact info form on their website concerning the dropped frames issue I'm getting from WKEF-DT on Zenith HDV420 during ABC HD programming sourced from 24fps sources (such as "Forrest Gump" tonight), as well as the "2nd", duplicate/incorrect 27.5 PSIP VCT channel from WRGT-DT that's been there for a couple weeks or so.

We'll see if their "contact form" is still working(recall someone saying they had their "issues" they were having with that contact form fixed with it several months ago) -- I would encourage any others experiencing these issues(or any others, or any other stations for that matter) to contact them as well ....

Note that the current "dropped frames" issue from WKEF-DT that has been occuring for about a week or so during HD sourced from Film(or 1080p/24fps material such as ABC HD sitcoms I believe) is only effecting some receiver models, as has been the case in the past when it has occured from WKEF-DT ....

Sorry, I haven't spent much time or effort contacting stations about incomplete or missing EPG guide info(or problems concerning EIA708 captions either, which is all one of my receiver's supports) via PSIP as I've found it's often been a major project over the past 4 years just contacting them about what I consider to be more "primary" issues ...

Besides, it's WAY past getting old as it is, and more and more and whenever possible I'm just more likely to either just switch to the Cincinnati or Dayton station that's "working right" .....

A number of people in other cities were having the dropped frames problem too, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=514186&page=2. Others weren't though... That would rule out the problem being from ABC, would it not ?? Suggests that many stations have the same equipment (???).

From what I can tell from some of the remarks there, I doubt the "freezes" some folks were talking about is the same issue WKEF-DT is having with some receivers. Also note this is a completely different issue than the "video freezes" that used to also plague WKEF-DT during HD programming. The dropped frames issue has not been occuring(with the same decoder/etc) the past week or so from WCPO-DT ABC HD Cincinnati including last night, so yes, it doesn't appear to be a ABC issue.

The Audio doesn't "freeze" for example, and the video doesn't really "freeze" either(although some might describe it that way). What is happening about 1/3(or a little more)or so of the "frames per second" during 24fps sources on ABC HD are not being "drawn"(sent to the screen) by the decoder - looks more about like 13~15fps, and even then it's not a "smooth" thing. Looks like sometimes, say 3 or 4(or more) frames right next to each other are being "dropped" and not displayed, but 1/2 a second later you'll get 3~4 frames properly. This is an issue that's been "continously there" for the past week or so, all the time during programming from 24fps sources. It's not "sporadic freezes" for instance.

This has happened before from WKEF-DT, WSYX-DT Columbus and even once for a brief period a similar issue occured from WCPO-DT(and they are using different equipment, and in that case it seemed to effect more receiver models on the user end, and may have been a slightly different issue). It also used to occasionally occur during some non-fox programming(upconverted SD such as "the simpsons", or "Star Trek Voyager when they used to have it) from WRGT-DT.

Concerning the issue with WKEF-DT and when it has occured in the past(and this specific issue has only effected some receivers, not all), I've posted in detail on this thread on previous occasions what "fixed it" according to WKEF-DT engineer and WSYX/Sinclair engineer in Columbus -- And that was, they reported : Turning "repeat field detection" off on their Harmonic MV400 encoder. It, or a bit later model is a popular encoder used by many stations, Fox was using MV450 for the FOX HD from the splicer in fact, don't know if they've "upgraded" it or not. That issue has certianly never occured during Fox HD, in any case.

This is apparently an issue involving 720p, 24fps source material, 3:2 pulldown issues and the encoder and/or how certian decoders handle certian MPEG2 settings on the encoder end. Turning "repeat field detection" ON on the encoder should allow for a bandwidth savings, as, instead of actually sending repeated data for duplicate fields in the MPEG2 datastream, turning "repeat field detection "ON" on their encoder should allow the decoder to properly detect, and redraw any repeated fields when necessary - but, evidently for some reason it isn't working that way in this case with my Zenith HDV420 receiver, and instead only about 2/3 or so of even the "non-duplicated" 24fps are being decoded - resulting in very "stuttery" video. Or, perhaps there are some other "different" encoder settings needed for different source programming(film or 24fps 1080p HD sources vs. 30fps interlaced or 60fps progressive) which is not being implemented on the station's encoder.

Also Note that in my case, the issue is there no matter what I'm outputting from the receiver(480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i), or what display it is hooked up to(including "old fashioned" analog TV's at 480i, or displays which offer full 3:2 pulldown support. It does not effect my other two ATSC receivers(Built into Sony HDTV, or Hisense/USDTV) DB-2010. For more details, (including some info from Sinclair engineers from the last time I was working with them on solviing it) see this post(from 3rd paragraph down to the end) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...page=117&pp=30

wkef was fine for me (hd tivo) with the cavs - pistons yeaterday

I was told the cost differences were small, but I don't have any hard data to back that up.


Well, when you compare WHIO and WXIX side by side for the same event (the UC vs UD games at both the Shoe and UD Arena) there was always a noticable difference. I'd guess that they were using the same camera's, as there weren't 2 guys under the baskets (one for each network), and the overall shots looked similar. Like I said before, I believe it is an issue of their production equipment.


I haven't noticed the actual WXIX productions looking bad save maybe the lighting isn't as good as in the past, but that is quite possibly UC dimming the lights due to poor crowd size after the Huggins debacle. I have noticed that some of the ESPN+ games didn't look as good (they were broadcast on WXIX, but weren't produced by them). Are those games what you are referring to?

Don't think so. I don't watch much basketball, so not sure which games it was(it wasn't the ESPN+ games though I don't think) or who was doing the production, only that I thought it hasn't looked as good this year as it has in the past. I don't think WXIX does it on their own in any case like WHIO does.

I believe you are right, they rent one of the NEP production trucks, I'm pretty sure. They do have their own graphics, however, that I believe NEP overlay's for them.

Jim, but that would be programming from a Video source(30 frames per second interlaced, or 60fps progressive if it was 720p HD from ABC) .... I'm not seeing any issues on WKEF-DT currently with programming sourced from Video either ...

As was the case when this last happened from WKEF-DT last summer, it's only effecting programming sourced from Film (or from 1080p/24p HD sources - as I believe some of the ABC HD scripted programming are) ... Which is 24 frames per second. And, it is only effecting some receivers ... In my case, only my Zenith HDV420 is effected ... It's not occuring with Internal receiver in Sony HDTV, or Hisense/USDTV DB-2010 ...

I can't recall - was the hdtivo one of the receivers getting the "dropped frames" last summer when this was occuring from WKEF-DT? Not the unrelated "video freezes" they used to have which effected all receivers, or later "audio drop" issues they were having just around the time they first started doing DD 5.1(and a bit before that as well) which effected some equipment.

not sure.. I didnt get the tivo until september, so I can't say for sure if that was the case

I've got my Terk HDTVi temporarily sitting in my attic right now, shooting out the corner more or less, through the roof (shingles) itself. I'm now picking up (7) digital stations and my signal strength has improved from 93-100% on WDTN, WHIO, WPTD, and WBDT and 77-86% on WKEF and WRGT to 93-100% on ALL stations. Previously, WKEF and WRGT were dropping out frequently too. I'm also picking up WKOI out of Richmond now, 30 miles out. Not bad for an *indoor* antenna, IMO.

Now I'm really tempted to aim just a hair south and see if anything happens with Cincy stations without affecting the Dayton stations..... Dayton's stations are in the 252' direction for me while the Cincy stations are in the 209' direction and 42-47 miles out.

I may be not typical but I have 2 large high gain outoor antenna's in my attic and they work fine. Probably helps that Dayton and Cincinnati are almost exactly 180 degres apart from me. NO issues with digital at all. Analog is just ok except for WBQC 38 which suprisingly comes in better than WCPO and WKRC. But since I almost never watch analog, it doesn't matter.

FYI, WKOI's community of license is Richmond Indiana, but they actually transmit from a tower SW of you -- It's right between Trenton+Oxford, OH.

Never paid attention to their direction, but yeah, they're between Dayton's towers and Cincy's from my location (according to antennaweb). Can't say I see much of interest on it though....

Preachers in English or Spanish, take your pick...4 multicast channels worth the last time I picked them up.

Yeah, there's 5 or 6 total channels from them .... taking up space in the program guide. Until I reconnect the antenna in the attic, they're gone though. Do they have anything even kid-friendly on their add'l channels ? I looked for a website for them but didn't find one.

It really irks me when people are critical of WHIO for choosing to broadcast UD games, as horrible as the production may be, simply because it preempts CBS national programming.

For starters, I think it is important that stations braodcast local events in addition to locally produced programming. Besides the news and UD basketball and the Brian Gregory show, there really isn't much on any local Dayton affiliates that is produced locally (except on PBS). Some might consider this a key factor in the public interest requirement for station licensure. In contrast to the the network affiliates, at least TWC makes an effort to produce local programming (UD, WSU and Miami men's and women's basketball, football, softball, etc.).

UD might be one of the best things Dayton has going for it. It is respected as an institution. Its basketball program actually has real scholar-athletes who graduate (the second or third best graduation rate in the country for D-I institutions).

Otherwise, without UD basketball and the news, I'm not sure what separates WHIO from any other CBS station. I suppose we might as well consolidate Dayton and Cincinnati into one. For that matter, just have one nationally operated CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, WB, etc. station. We've seen it happen with radio and Clear Channel, etc., and its not good. I would rather find myself listening to WYSO and WCWT over Clear Channel any day.

As for Mike Hartsock, he has always been a proponent of Dayton basketball and the community, whether it be high school football or that other locally produced high school quiz show he does.

I've heard that UD has signed a contract with CSTV for UD games next year. Whether it completely shuts out WHIO remains to be seen. Maybe there will be a game or two in HD on CSTV (via INHD) since FSN-Ohio has really dropped the ball. I would have much rather seen a quality HD production from WHIO, however, as WRGT did with UC basketball last year.

I'm not a basketball fan so I am biased in this, but look at the big picture. How many people in Dayton watch the normally televised CBS program vs how many end up watching the UD game ?? I'll bet the numbers are drastically different. I would give WHIO credit there that they don't put viewing numbers/ratings over "local sports".

It reminds me of when they put one of the presidential debates on WHIO-DT and left the regular CBS show on WHIO (analog). Why'd they do that ?? They did it because that time they chose ratings over the debate. I don't know for a fact, but I'm pretty sure that election debates get pretty low ratings....

Back to the UD games, what does WHIO do on the analog channel and the digital channel when they show UD ?? Do they put the game on both ??

The #5 mulitcast channel they added around Christmas is Children's programming.


www.tbn.org

Here's another website for a religious station you might not be familar with. It broadcasts(channel 55 analog) from a tower near Bellbrook/Centerville :

www.lifebroadcastingnetwork.org

I found that one last night but didn't see anything really related to WKOI. I assumed that WKOI was a "local" station that was affiliated with TBN, not in fact a full-time outlet for TBN.

Did run across something interesting on the TBN site.... http://www.tbn.org/index.php/7.html?nid=56

I'm not critical of them doing that at all. I agree with many of your comments, in fact. That being said, who knows what would happen to WRGT or WKEF if Sinclair wasn't there to operate them, and who knows how many radio stations would go dark, or be viable if it weren't for the CC's ....... Just Look at what happened to 97X ...

I also miss the coverage of Dayton air show WHIO used to do on Saturdays. That's been missing the last 2 or 3 years or so. Allways thought that would be nice in HD "someday" as well.

Personally, the more available programming choices available OTA(but NOT at the expense of quality - such as HD PQ or quality programming vs. quantity) from the Dayton and Cincinnati stations, the better IMO, and that includes locally produced programming. If one is a UD fan, they can watch the UD games on WHIO, if one would rather watch CBS HD, they can watch it from the Cincinnati (or Columbus/etc) stations .... THAT's what I've been "supporting", I did not suggest it to be critical of WHIO for running the UD games .....

Cincinnati stations sometimes run different programming in lieu of Network programming as well. WXIX for UC Games, occasionally syndicated movies on WCPO/etc, or you might see "Billy Graham" on WKRC or WCPO ....

They are a TBN affiliate, but they're pretty much all TBN programming. All of their multicast services are TBN's. They do occasionally have some local programming on 43-1 and the analog station.

For the most part however, It doesn't really differ much from the TBN network feed that feeds TBN low power translators W20CL (Springfield) or W36DG Cincinnati. W36DG actually uses Dish Network to pick up the feed, you can tell when they have "rain fade" issues by the info pops up from the E* receiver they are using when it loses the feed.(channel #260, transponder#/etc).

Anyhow, Here's some of TBN's info on their digital stations, You'll find WKOI listed, with WKOI-DT specific coverage map there.

http://www.tbn.org/index.php/7.html?nid=21

I don't watch them much, but the younger Crouch guy that's a engineer at TBN is often on there talking about DTV (and even HD at times), including informing folks about OTA DTV/HD and giving demonstrations with ATSC receivers and Silver Sensors and the like ...

I went to WSU so I couldn't give a flying frick about UD basketball.

Generally when they show the games it's the same thing on the digital as the analog.