Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - Page 14

That's kind of bad business philosophy in my opinion. Even if it is a joke.

Breedingamies,

I certianly agree with you. Not even getting into FCC "requirements" for keeping the operation "to specs" where interference issues/etc, are concerned, If there is even a chance 1 person is watching(and I'd think that would allways be the case), I think these stations should strive to provide good service, as DTV/HD IS a service we expect, whether the broadcasters like it or not.

Folks like us and those coming in the future who purchase HD displays and receivers expect good service(and should, even though we are often called "early adopters") and shouldn't have to care how many others are watching.

In addition to comments such as "noone is watching", I often here comments such as, "well, we don't make any money off the sales of DTV receivers", or, "The FCC is making us do it/etc", when instead, IMO broadcasters should be trying to make the most of this new service. Having a signal on the air in order to meet FCC requirements, and even HD(even though HD isn't required, we "expect" HD/Widescreen programming too), as without it, there is little benefit to DTV for most of us) on the air is not enough I don't think ...They IMO they need to be promoting it in any way they can .. Instead of "wishing it will go away", which it won't. As a wise man once said, Broadcasters will either take control, or at least get on the "DTV Bus", or they will get run over by it.

Still, nevertheless, If stations don't get calls and complaints when something goes wrong or they go off air/etc., they tend to think noone is watching, and sometimes this seems to lower the level of "service" in some cases that I've noticed. They know, with analog, a certian number of people will call them if something goes wrong(hence, you see a "technical difficulties" message within a few seconds of a problem with analog), and they expect the same thing to happen with digital, which most likely isn't the case ...

Of course most of us will just change the channel if we're actually trying to watch something rather than mess around with contacting the station, and since DTV viewers have analogs to "fall back on"(in addition to stations in other markets providing HD/etc) as well, Stations should keep this in mind when trying to calculate the number of viewers by the amount of complaints/etc. they get.

Also, of course, many times these stations have a hard time making "ends meet", and therefore having to maintain two stations(analog and digital) -- in WRGT/WKEF'S case, it is 4 Stations), can be quite a drain on budgets and the engineering staff's "nerves" etc. Also, keep in mind, the Engineer's etc,(who are often the ones we talk to), have the job of making everything work with little "resources" available, they don't make the decisions on approving the expenses for HD/"High power"/etc, and I'm afraid they often get the "flack" from viewers when they don't deserve it ... That's why, while it's good to make our feelings known when something is "lacking", it's also good to do it in a polite way ....

One more comment I have on this, I had hoped for a good explanation of what went wrong at WRGT-DT, in hopes that I could save some time and effort(on mine, and the stations part) should I see something similar happening elsewhere, but the explanation I received makes absolutely no sense to me, and therefore wasn't very helpful ...Oh, well ...

I do wonder if we would see these sorts of transmission problems if there was a FCC monitoring station near Dayton ... I believe the nearest one is almost 400 Miles away in Northern Michigan ...Furthermore, Regardless of how many people are watching, Stations must operate with the facilities as approved under their operating permits from FCC. "We turned down the power to save on Utility bills because no one is watching" is NOT a valid excuse FCC will accept, or grant a STA for ... Now, from my understanding, they are very understanding when Technical problems/etc. cause "issues", as these can sometimes be sticky things, and as long as a station does it's best to Keep on top of, and correct problems, I think this is as it should be ...

At 2:15pm(6/21), WPTD-DT(ThinkTV/PBS Dayton) Is back on the air ..

Do we have a list of contact information for the various stations? I plan on calling/emailing them frequently if necessary once I'm set up in the next few weeks.

Thanks,

HJ

HJ,

Thanks. You can find contact info for the stations on their websites.

Is there a definitive list of what HDTV station Time Warner is currently carrying? I've called half a dozen times and each customer service person has given me a different answer. I'm about to have a stroke.

1. HBOHD, SHOWTIMEHD: confirmed and they're on their channel line-up lists.

2. PBS: One lady told me these HD channels resided in the 600 range. Another told me if I tuned in to the existing PBS stations when an HD show was airing, I would see it in HD.

3. ABC, NBC, FOX: Just tune into channels 8, 9, or 11 when an HD program is airing and I'll see the HD version (with an HDTV cable box, of course).

4. Discovery-HD: Channel 50--sometimes this is in HD.

I've asked to be directed to someone responsible for Time Warner HD in the Dayton market on several occasions and I've been told there is no one to speak to. I'm also trying to determine what HD box Time Warner Dayton is currently providing. I've been told Scientific Atlanta and Pioneer with no model numbers.

Does anyone really know what's happening with TW Dayton HD? If I can't find some concrete information soon, I'm going to be a dish customer very soon.

Thanks,

Justin

Justin,

Hopefully someone with TW HD in Dayton can soon post updated info which will hopefully better help answer some of your questions than I can, however, you can also find info on HD from TWC Dayton from posters with TW HD in Dayton on previous pages of this thread.

From what I recall from previous posters here with Dayton TW HD, last I heard, I do believe they have HBO-HD and Showtime HD available. I can't say for sure, but I'm skeptical of the accuracy of the info you have gotten from the TW rep, especially so where some of the the "channel tuning" info that was provided to you is concerned, and also, One thing I do know is, you won't get HD or even "Fox Widescreen" from the Fox Dayton station, which I'm fairly sure is what TW Dayton has available.

Concerning the local digital Over-the-air broadcast stations/networks, the last I heard the following 3 stations are what TW Dayton offers, along with notes on the general "quality of service" we get from these stations :

WKEF-DT (NBC HD) - Although "in general" they've gotten better about it lately, They are sometimes quite sporadic about providing NBC HD - Last night when I checked Leno for example, it was 4x3 SD on WKEF-DT, whearas the HD for Leno was fine from the Cincinnati NBC HD station. This station is owned by Sinclair broadcasting, so it's a bit of a miracle we get HD from them at all, considering Sinclair stations HD "record". I do believe it is because of folks at the station that we are getting NBC HD from them. I believe their switching is manual, however, so sometimes they need to be called and reminded to "flip the HD switch".

WRGT-DT (Fox Digital) -- They Don't Do any Fox widescreen or HD however, it's 4x3 480i SD 0nly. I wouldn't hold my breath for widescreen or Fox HD.(when Fox starts doing HD within the next year or so that is). This station is also controlled by Sinclair, BTW.

WPTD-DT (PBS/Think TV). WPTD-DT has HD in the evenings, at which time they drop to a single SD subchannel(simulcast of 16 analog) along with the HD -- Which still isn't really "enough" bandwidth for HD to look it's best(free from compression artifacts). The rest of the time, they have 4 SD channels/programming services. From my understanding of previous posts from TW HD customers, they provide all these subchannels/programming services when available.

Concerning the other Dayton HD/Digital stations that are on the air(pretty much all of them are), the last I heard, WDTN-DT(ABC HD Dayton) and WHIO-DT (CBS HD Dayton) were still in "negotiations" with TW for HD carriage, but hopefully they've added them by now. Without info from someone who has TW HD in Dayton however, I wouldn't count on it though. Don't have any info on WBDT-DT Dayton(WB - Owned by ACME) and TW, but, WBDT-DT is like WRGT-DT, they only do 4x3 480i SD, so there is little benefit over getting their analog station.

Also, although Dayton area Cable does carry some Cincinnati analog stations(at least they used to), and, they are well within Cincy stations "grade B" signal contours, I don't believe Dayton cable carries any of the Cincinnati Digital stations. However, most locations(South of I-70) in Dayton should have good luck pulling in most of the Cincinnati area stations given a decent outdoor antenna setup, and locations around, or East of I-675 should have a good shot at Columbus. These are the Cincy digital stations which should be receivable from Dayton:

WCPO-DT (ABC HD + a Local HD demo loop/etc. occasionally)

WKRC-DT (CBS HD, "usually" Paramount's HD One Movies, occasioanal Local HD demo loops, and for the Last two years, an excellent Multicamera(8) HD production of the WEBN/Riverfest Fireworks in Cincinnati .

WXIX-DT (Fox Widescreen(480p) and hopefully Fox HD In the next year or so, when Fox makes it available/etc)

WCET-DT (PBS HD/Multicasting - not much PBS HD except tuesday nights, unfortunetly - They've also shown a couple of locally produced HD programs, one of which I recall was on Tall Stacks 99' in Cincinnati)

WLWT-DT (NBC HD)
WSTR-DT (WB - 480i SD only, no HD unfortunetly - Owned by Sinclair, BTW)

WPTO-DT (PBS/ThinkTV) Is not on the air yet, but last I talked with them, they have plans for PBS HD/Multicasting, I believe with a different schedule/programming services than what is the case on WPTD-DT Dayton -- They will be broadcasting from WXIX Cincy's tower, and should be fairly easily receivable from Dayton. Last I heard, they planned on being on the air by late summer 2003.

WCVN-DT (KET/PBS) in Covington, KY is probably out of range for most in Dayton, except perhaps for those in high spots and/or with hi-gain antenna setups ...

WKOI-DT (TBN - religious - No HD) Richmond, IN(tower near Oxford, Ohio) is probably not very receivable from Dayton currently as they are using a very directional transmittingantenna which favors only their community of License, Richmond, In, which is some 30 Miles Northwest of their tower.

The UPN Cincinnati station does not have a seperate DTV channel allocation from the FCC, they will probably switch to digital/HD only at some point when they feel there are enough digital viewers(probably be quite a few years though), and drop their analog service at that time.

--------------
Columbus wise, the following stations are probably currently reachable from I-675 or farther east:

WWHO-DT Chillocothe( UPN/WB, and Paramount's HD-One Movie package -- WITH WB HD, and I assume will Have UPN HD when it becomes available)
WBNS-DT Columbus (CBS HD)
WSYX-DT Columbus (ABC HD)
WCMH-DT Columbus (NBC HD)

The PBS station in Columbus is not yet on the air, The Fox Station is currently at low power and thus would probably be difficult to receive from Dayton/Springfield area on a regular basis, with plans to go to high power in 6~12 Months. The Fox station does do Fox Widescreen currently however, although I believe it is at 480i 16x9.



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Concerning HD from dish or directTV, keep in mind, You can't presently(or for the forseeable future) get HD/DTV locals, or HD from the broadcast networks via the sat dish, you'll need OTA/antenna for HD from CBS, NBC, PBS/etc.

While I believe Dish network does(or used to) carry at least the CBS HD feed, You need a waiver from the local CBS station in order to receive it, and I doubt if WHIO-DT would be willing to comply. Although, I don't know why one would not want to receive their HD locals OTA, as there are no monthly bills, and the hardware requirements(antenna, STB -- Which you'll have anyway for OTA if you go the DBS route) are about the same as a year or less of cable subscription, and yet the setup(outdoor directional antenna recommended, with rotor if necesssary) will last for decades(barring disaster).

Hope some of this helps, Let us know how it turns out, once you can relax and enjoy some HD, I think you'll find all these headaches to be "worth it" ...

Justin -

I have an HDTV box (Scientific Atlanta, don't remember the model number) from TWC, had it for about 2 months. I live just outside Springfield, but I think the TW service is the same.

1. Sure enough, HBO and Showtime HDTV channels exist. I have HBO (it's on channel 314), it mirrors the Eastern broadcast.

2. I believe the PBS HDTV channel is 714. There are some other PBS channels above that, but they are in Standard Definition.

3. NBC is on channel 722. It's in HD when they remember to turn it on. Jay Leno is VERY impressive when they do! Fox is on channel 745. But as others have said, it really isn't high def. ABC and CBS??? Not there yet, unless they are hiding somewhere I haven't looked.

4. I really haven't stared at channel 50 long enough to know if it ever goes to HD. But I doubt it. That would mean that the channel could not be used by NON-HD viewers (I think). It explains why the HD versions of the other channels have their own channel numbers (HBO, SHOWTIME, NBC, etc).

I haven't found anyone in the Springfield TW office that knows anything either. And I'd sure like to know when CBS and ABC will be added.

Good luck to us all
Dick

Jeff and Dick:

Thank you very much for the thorough replies. It would appear that there will be some HD content for me to enjoy once I finally make up my mind on which set to purchase. This will all be happening in the next week or two. I'm really excited, and even if HD conditions aren't ideal in our area, I can still enjoy an excellent DVD picture in the mean time.

Thanks again.

Justin

It just appeared today on TWC channel 755. So far no picture though. Can anyone confirm? I had heard that this was a national rollout for TWC.

It's ALIVE!

The Discovery channel showed up WORKING tonight (755) and it's beautiful! This and the PBS channel show what real HD is all about. They make DVD's look ordinary. Now when CBS and ABC show up, we'll be in business!

Is the Discovery channel working for the Cincinnati area of TWC yet? What channel if so? Also, for the two months or so that I have used TWC, WCET-HD PBS is always shown as off air.

Curt,

You might get a better response to your Cincy TWC questions in the Cincy thread instead of here ..

Not sure if this is the "exact" issue you're having with WCET-DT, however, HD is very sparse from WCET-DT ... They seem more interested in being the provider(To TWC digital(not necessarily HD) to digital cable customers of their multiple(4) SD programming services -- PBS kids, "CET You", Etc. ... In fact, they told me this very thing, as they feel they can reach 150,000 cable households with their SD services, and only a few thousand cable+OTA with HD ...

WCET-DT only has programming(HD) on its HD subchannel at certian times, ... For instance, last night from 10-11pm "Soundstage"(Tom Petty) was in HD on 48-1 (948 for TWC I think), and that's the only hour of HD they had yesterday ... "Ohio:200 Years" is the only thing scheduled today/tongiht in HD from them, at 9:30pm. The rest of the time, the HD subchannel is "shut off" and they provide 4 SD subchannels(OTA and To Cincy TWC folks),

Tuesday nights are usually the Big nights for HD from WCET-DT, otherwise, HD is very "spotty" from them ... It's a little "clunky"(You can only look at one day at a time), but you can view their HD schedule here:

http://www.wcet.org/schedule/index.asp?channel=2

WPTD-DT Dayton on the other hand, has PBS HD nightly (usually 8-11pm weekdays, 6-11pm weekends) and, if you still have your OTA setup, WPTD-DT(and WCET-DT too) are receivable from Middletown area as are 11~12 other Cincy/Dayton area digital Stations, 10 of which Do HD or Fox widescreen presently (The one with Fox Widescreen, WXIX-DT "Fox Cincy" is currently Off air with transmitter problems however) ... ...

Anyhow, WPTD-DT/ThinkTV has a excellent programming schedule on their website, you can even easily select the HD channel, and print out/view a listing "customized to your preferences" w/detailed descriptions for a week ahead .. Thier Schedule is Here:

http://www.thinktv.org/program/program.php

Well, I wonder how long it will take until WKEF-DT realizes they have no audio on their HD subchannel ... At least, during SD upconverts, there has been no Audio on 51-1 since Thursday or Friday ... haven't had a a chance to see if the Audio is there during HD ...

I also noticed that they didn't have HD for Leno everytime I looked the past week+ ... However, even with the Tennis stuff/Leno Delay, WLWT-DT Cincy did have Leno in HD every night last week ..

Speaking of Missing HD, No HD for "Wild Wild West" from WHIO-DT tonight, it is in HD from WKRC-DT ...

WPTD-DT HD16 (16-6 ota) had a Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers concert on Soundstage last night. If any of you get a chance to see it in the future, it looks and sounds good and was very entertaining, in my opinion. It looks like they're broadcasting part one of the concert again tonight at 9:00.

Paul

Thanks Jeff,
You are probably right about the issue that I am having. I was never able to receive WCET OTA with my Dish 6000 so I pretty much gave up on it. I will try to remember to check this Tuesday to catch something on WCET.

I have been very impressed so far with TWC. I would have bet that they would never convince me to switch to cable but so far I'm getting much better PQ and lots more shows with surround sound. I never really complained about PQ with Dish or Direct TV before, tho sometimes one or the other at times seemed better, but it has been quite good with cable so far.

Curt

I just discovered this one myself. I completely agree. This is a great channel. High quality content in both form and substance!

Curt,

Since you've got them via Cincy TWC, not that it matters much, but WCET-DT did increase power very substantially recently(from 7KW ERP to 216KW ERP), which should have greatly improved reception for those who were having problems with them.

Paul,

I enjoyed the Tom Petty "soundstage" as well. "16 HD" aired it in HD last Thrusday as well, Coinciding with the SD feed on 16-2 and 16 analog (was on WCET at the same time too) ...

There are a couple of threads on the PBS "Soundstage" series in the programming area, I'm definetly looking forward to seeing many of the future performances in HD from Chicago, Doobie Bros, Union Station/etc ... I've still yet to notice any DD 5.1 from "16 HD" however, and I haven't noticed it lately from WCET-DT either, although they used to do DD 5.1 on occasion ...

Well, now they know. I informed the Chief & Asst. Eng. I am awaiting status.

In the future (if you wish) you may write to:

"Mr. DTV"

Take care!

Mr DTV
Sure am hoping you get some attention. I sent two letters and made a phone call.. and that was MONDAY. Previously, I got someone in the newsroom who told me to call the cable company. "They're the only people around here with a channel 51." I pressed on, explaining digital television and she said, "Oh, yeah. I did hear something about that."

Makes me wonder about their NEWS.

Doc

update: As of 9:50AM, we have sound. Good job, Mr DTV.

Here's what I just got:

*************************************
We know that WKEF 51.1 has no audio and we are working on it . WKEF 51.2 has audio. We hope to get it working today.

Have a great day.
Roland Martel
Dayton Ohio
*************************************

Let me know if it does not get resolved soon.


"Mr. DTV"

From the C.E. at WKEF - All is well!

****************************************
We now have audio on WKEF 51.1. I had to reset our Harmonic encoder.


Roland Martel
Dayton Ohio
****************************************

"Mr. DTV"

And now...?

A/V is fine from 51-1 now ...

Thanks for your participation here, Mark ... I might add, Roland and Thom have been very responive to my correspondance(both privately and via the email address on the WKEF/WRGT website). I have not contacted them on the 51.1 audio issue, as I had very recently been in contact with them regarding a WRGT-DT issue which was corrected,(see further back in this thread) and hoped monitoring of the signal by station personel and/or correspondance from other viewers besides myself may have been more benficial ....

Anyhow, We'll be all set when the time comes that the board-ops at WKEF-DT can "remember" to pass all the NBC HD(lately, except for the last week or so, they have been doing a good job of it), and hopefully someday we'll get Fox Widescreen(Fox HD in the "future") from WRGT-DT, and WB HD from WSTR-DT Cincinnati ...

Update 12am: HD is back for Leno tonight via WKEF-DT as well ... Didn't check the L&O's (If NBC provided them in HD tonight), but it seems like were batting 1,000 tonight

Hey, what do you know, WKEF-DT switched to HD for "L&O: CI" Tonight ...

Things seem to be going quite smoothly tonight so far, WXIX-DT Cincy even had the new show "Banzai" in Widescreen ... However, although WDTN-DT had the Disney movie at 7pm in HD, "Alias" at 9 is NOT in HD via WDTN-DT ... HD for "Alias" is fine tonight from WCPO-DT Cincy ...

I think I liked it better when WDTN was controlling the switching from Dayton instead of from Indy ... I don't believe I saw them miss HD even once before they began controlling the station from Indy ... Anybody know the number for The WISH/LIN control room in Indy?

Sent WDTN CE a note concerning the occasional missing HD from WDTN last night, this is the reply I received this morning, so hopefully this issue will be completely straigtened out soon :

Jeff,

Thanks. I always appreciate your feedback. I am going over to Indy tomorrow for a meeting and I'll check into the problem with the inconsistant HD.

Thanks for your help,

Jim

I'm sure this transition to DTV is quite a pain in the butt for all station CE's. It's refreshing to deal with someone like Jim Atkinson at WDTN. He's always very polite and concise with his answers.

Paul

Do any of you that receive ota notice any strange things going on today? I keep getting breakups on WPTD-DT and WKRC-DT. Both are showing plenty of signal but I still have the problem and it doesn't seem to help re-aiming the antenna.

Paul

Paul..
Looking at WKRC-DT, now. Looks fine, but I've only been watching CSI for a short time. WPDT looks solid, here in Florence (KY), too. Which only happens for me at night.

Doc

Paul,

No problems here tonight either, with WPTD-DT or WKRC-DT(when I was looking at least). I did notice that at one point, WLWT-DT was showing very uncharacteristic low, and a bit "bouncing around" readings(no dropouts/etc though), which I attributed to CCI from "somewhere", and it's something I don't recall ever seeing before.

Also, WCET-DT appeared to be having some weird Video problems tonight.... 48.4 and 48.5 were also gone when I looked, although at the time there wasn't HD on 48.1 ... I just checked at 11:04, after they went off air, and "just to make sure" it doesn't appear like the problem was CCI ... Analog WBKI 34 Louisville/Campbellsville KY would have been my most likely culprit for CCI to WCET-DT if it did happen, although I'd have to be "tough" to get through WCET-DT's strong signal since they increased power.

There has been some serious long haul Tropo DX reported in our area from the West last night, this morning and today, I unfortuntely missed it. Tropo does seem to be starting to pick up for me as well, although I'm not seeing much, and it isn't all that "uncommon" I am seeing quite a strong signal at times from WBXX 20, Crossville, TN, although it is unstable here presently. I haven't done a thorough "scan for DX' yet tonight, but I'm not seeing much else besides WBXX and WKON with steady signal, but, I suppose it's certianly possible with Tropo ducting that Paul is getting some signals which are causing CCI problems although we are not.

There is a DT on 58 in Johnson City, TN, and a DT on 31 in Knoxville,TN , if CCI is the problem you're having, It would make sense given your antenna heading to WPTD and WKRC, considering how well WBXX(near knoxville, TN) is coming in at times presently, and those stations seem like they'd be in about the right for you to cause CCI, but, CCI for you on 58 would be pretty wild considering your distance to WPTD-DT! I really can hardly imagine it given WPTD-DT's signal ...

Also, if it was a reception or CCI problem, I suppose stranger things have happened, but seems like your meter should be going up and down, or should be "lower than normal" ..... Something like having a overloaded preamp/etc, or a strong station on a adjacent channel causing problems does I believe tend to show up as the things you were seeing ... Of course, perhaps a more plausible explanation could be that it could have been a "problem at the station" that I, or Doc didn't notice when we were looking at those stations ..

But still, You might want to look around a bit and see if you see any DX on "clean channels" in those direction. With our difference in location and elevation, signals via tropo ducting could be blasting into your location, and I might not be seeing much(even though WKRC-DT would be on nearly the same heading for both of us), which seems to be "generally" the case presently.

BTW, A DTV Dx'er in Nebraska reported Reception of WPTD-DT via Tropo DX This morning! It's probably "not quite", but has to be somewhat close to the current Tropo DTV distance record, which I believe is something like 700 or 800 miles ...

Update(oops, I updated more of this post above also with hopefully better info) : Oh, also, Noticed that WDTN-DT missed the HD for "Alias" again Tonight(HD was fine from WCPO-DT), I just caught a second of it, but the 10pm show(The practice, I think) was SD upconvert on WDTN-DT as well ... Didn't check WCPO-DT for that one but my guess is it was HD there if it was supposed to be ...