Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - Page 20

Does anyone with TWC have problems with Video/Audio dropouts while watching NBC (WKEF) HD?

While I'm watching WKEF HD through TWC, the video and audio will drop out for about 1 or 2 seconds then come back on. It happens regularly, probably 6 times in an hour.

The strange thing is, it has NEVER happened while I'm watching the other HD channels (INHD, INHD2, Discovery HD). I'll watch those channels for 2 hours straight and no problem.

Anyone else having this?

Vader...

I have the same issue from time to time with WKEF, but it's usually once an hour. Also like you...I don't have the problems with the other HD channels. I assume it's caused by WKEF?

Yes, I've seen it too OTA. I think it's an issue that is occuring at WKEF-DT ... Doesn't happen OTA on their SD subchannel, 51-2 ... Sometimes, it's a short Pause when the pic is frozen on the screen, but the audio continues as normal. It's happened every now and then with the NBC HD feed(never with NTSC SD, or local/syndicated programming) All along, since they came on air in Feb 02. Never seen it happen with NBC HD via WLWT-DT, NBC Cincinnati.


Yes, way to go WDTN-DT! They really do a fine job with providing ABC HD, and have from the time they came on the air .. and in DD 5.1 to boot! The ONLY Commercial broadcaster in Dayton or cincy to have DD 5.1 at present .... I'm Still getting the occasional "almost" like loss of V synch/almost like losing a frame of video but not quiteor whatever you want to call it thing from them during ABC HD every now and then ....

Concerning WBDT-DT Haven't heard anything new ... The Good news is, I believe they ARE planning on doing WB HD, which is more than I can say about the Cincinnati station(Owned by sinclair) -- At least AFAIK at this point. Last I talked to WBDT folks in Late September as I had posted previously, The response from WBDT-DT was:

"We do plan to broadcast in High Definition in the future and we are working on that timetable. We appreciate you as viewer of Dayton's WB, Thanks"
Al Schmidt
Chief Engineer

I'd certianly encourage everyone to drop them a note or give them a call and let them know we are watching their digital station, and waiting for WB HD .... Contact info can be found here:

http://www.wb26tv.com/StationInfo/index.asp

As for WRGT-DT and Fox widescreen.... Although WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT engineering has been great about answering when Technical issues(or HD issues with WKEF-DT) are involved, I've asked them(and Sincliar, who operates WRGT under LMA) several times, and I've never really gotten a response, except for an early response from someone there who, when asked why they aren't doing Fox widescreen answered, "Because there is no reason to" ... Of course, I think there is a reason, although I don't see much benifit in WRGT-DT being on the air presently, as the Video looks just as bad as it does on the analog station, especially during "Good Day live" with all the interference, and Fox Feed with the crease on the Screen ... It looks like just Composite NTSC video, with none of the ATSC Quality improvements(except the improved reception, that is)

I did notice that Sinclair shows WRGT-DT as being "HD Ready" on their website ( here: http://www.sbgi.net/business/markets/dayton.shtml )---- So, hopefully they Will have HD from Fox when it starts happening, which I think is probably going to be Next Fall.

Anyhow, by all means, everyone drop them a note and let them know we are waiting for Fox Widescreen(and Fox HD when available) from them. From what I've seen, If we don't tell them we are out here watching(sometimes it seems we constantly need to remind them), they get the idea there are only "7 of us" out here. Contact info for WKEF/WRGT is here : Besides calling them, The "technical issues" email seems to work well :

http://www.nbc22.com/feedback/index.htm

Did we ever get an answer from WDTN on why there is a blip every 15 seconds or so with the video on their HD programming? I swear it's subliminal advertising! Maybe we did but I'm too lazy to scroll back through 29 pages to find out. Anyway, it's still there.

Paul

Paul,

That's a better way of describing it, as a "blip", I'm sure we are talking about the same thing ... Don't think we did find out what was going on ... Jim at WDTN-DT had said he'd look into it, but I'm not sure what he found out. I just sent him a message, I'll post if I find out anything.

I've seen that as well. I'm not sure if it's a glitch in their encoder, but it looks like an old frame flashes up during that time.

Thanks for the contact information, I'll be sending some emails out to ask about HD from WRGT and WBDT. I'd also like to nicely ask WHIO to pleeeeease lose the SD simulcast during CBS HD, as the pixelation makes football look terrible! (Maybe I should mention that I'm trying to rig up a way to pull in WBNS-DT....)

Yeah, I sometimes see the Old frame that looks like it was held in a buffer in my receiver too.

If you get through to WHIO, let us know how you did it! I've sent several messages on the very issue you mention to the ONLY email address listed on their site, but haven't received a response. I have called their Newsroom when they've missed HD(which doesn't happen very often), one time, I believe the guy in the control room actually answered the Newroom phone ...

FWIW, I have seen WBNS-DT occasionally(during SEC HD football once) when conditions are good enough(getting through the "mess" from adjacent channel WKEF 22 in nearly the same direction is an issue from my location), and it's night and day ... Absolutely beautiful on WBNS-DT, certianly no problems with compression artifacts on WBNS-DT, which I believe is allocating the full 19.39mp/s to 1080i HD(+Audio+PSIP of course) which is as it SHOULD be, of course, there's a reason which we are aware of why ATSC recommended that 1080i Needed the entire bandwidth available in a 6MHZ RF channel when ATSC is used ... ..

Yes, I have TWC and get this same dropout about every 10 minutes. Does anyone else get this OTA?

I'm just east of Fairborn so I don't have the problem of having to shoot around WKEF to point at Columbus. However, I'm going to have to go to a better antenna setup before I can pick up anything outside of the Dayton stations.

I do know someone who works at WHIO on the radio side so I'm hoping maybe he can get me in touch with a TV person there.
I did send emails to WBDT and WKEF/WRGT to let them know I'm picking them up via DTV and ask about timetables for Fox/WB HD capability. I'll also be emailing WDTN, mentioning the frame bug in passing but mostly praise for their great job of carrying the HD banner in Dayton.

I do get WKEF-DT OTA, and I seem to remember dropouts during Leno on occasion. I'll have to check again and see if I'm seeing the same thing.

No reply from any of the stations I emailed yet.

As far as what Nitewatchman mentioned about getting through to WHIO TV, it sounds like they are getting lower and lower budget around that place. I saw posted elsewhere that they did the better part of an 11pm newscast with no video, just a black screen. The WHIO AM radio station sure has been laying people off left and right. I wonder if there is anyone home at the TV station or if they're all asleep at the switch.

I noticed the audio / video drop outs watching wkef on tw tonight. A few times the screen completley froze with no video. There were also a couple of times where the volume level seemed to fluctuate.

I have notice audio breakup on WHIO-DT(OTA) the last several weeks (again Jan 12, 2004. All other channels appear to be OK.
I have a Zenith HV420 reciever.
Anyone else in Noth Dayton experience this?

I'm Not in North Dayton, But I've noticed WHIO-DT audio has at certian times been choppy and over-compressed sounding the past few weeks(seems like it's been more like a month or more, actually) or so on either HDV420 or DTC-100 receiver.

Also Keep in mind, When DTV reception problems occur, both Video and Audio go out, it isn't one or the other ...(Of course, Audio+video can go and it doesn't necessarily mean its a reception problem -- Could be the station's STL/etc) ... Signal Quality meters such as the one on the HDV420 can be somewhat helpful in diagnosing "real" reception related dropouts ...

For those seeing glitching on WKEF, I've been noticing it too viewing OTA. What I was getting sounds a little different than what the cable viewers are reporting here. What I saw was that the video would freeze for several seconds but the audio would keep going during that time. It didn't happen at first, but occurred two or three times near the end of the show.

I noticed the audio thing on WHIO too....it seemed to be really "sucking up" the crowd noise on football to the foreground unless that is the way the CBS engineers on-site were mixing the game. Announcers or the sound effects in the dissolve to replay would push the audio levels down, then it would suck up again like an AGC ramp-up kind of thing.
I'm sensitive to sound mix and AGC effects from setting up processing for radio, but I generally don't notice too much on TV since I'm more interested in the visuals.

That's the way CBS does the football games. Sometimes it's a challenge to hear what the announcers are saying at all because they mix the crowd noise in at a very high level, but most of the time, who cares?!

Okay, so it's a network issue with the sound on football. I don't mind too much about the announcers getting drowned out since I don't care for many of the CBS ones anyway, especially Gumbel.

I just wish WHIO would fix the picture quality issue. I'm hoping that I can get WBNS once I reconfigure my antenna system.

1450Khz,

You know, you might have some luck with Cincy stations too .. From your "approximate" location(I used a spot between Fairborn and Yellow Springs -- ~Greene Co. Country Club) , I show both Columbus and Cincy Towers about 54~57 miles distant ...

Although, CBS Cincy(WKRC-DT 31) uses 4mb/s of it's bandwidth(not just oppurtunistic bandwidth, either) for it's webhopper internet acceleration service, so pixelization during demanding HD is a problem there too .. A tad better than WHIO though, And WXIX-DT Fox Cincy Does do Fox widescreen(when they are actually on the air that is .....) ...

Anyhow, I lived in Fairborn for a time(across from the Bowling alley(if its still there) on N. Broad) in the mid-80's when I was going to school at WSU, and when you say you are just east of Fairborn, I'm hoping that hill just East of portions of Black Ln. isn't a problem for you Columbus reception wise ..

I'm a little farther south than Black Lane. I'm off Dayton-Yellow Springs road.

I show the Cincy stations at about 55 miles, and the Columbus stations at 52 miles. I might have a shot at Cincy. I'm able to get a fuzzy version of WCET and WXIX on analog using a crappy (Terk) antenna in my attic. I've gotten a teeny bit of WLWT-DT but never enough to get a lock.

I'm thinking of trying the Channel Master 4221 or yagi with a 7777 preamp.

Side note: I see that WPTD is now sending the program guide again.

1450khz,

I live in Huber Heights between 202 and 201 just North of I-70 and get most of the Columbus digitals including WBNS. WTTE 28-1 is the only Columbus digital that I can only get under special weather conditions until they increase their power. WSJF-DT CH24 is too far to hope to receive from my location (77 miles). All the Cincy stations are about 57 miles and the Columbus stations are 59 miles from my location.

I have a CM4228 8 Bay antenna and a CM7777 amp on a tower about 40' up.

There are problems for me with CH 22 and WBNS-DT (Ch 21) being on adjacent channels. When I first set up, I had frequent dropout/pixelization problems duing the day with the signal level as indicated by my receiver fluctuating. It could mostly be tuned out during the night with careful pointing of the antenna via rotor, but during day time the natural backgound noise increase due to the Sun lowered the S/N ratio enough to cause the adjacent channel interference to show up much worse.

I have mostly solved this with a CM jointenna for channel 22. This knocks down the signal for CH 21, but the relative amount is enough to allow a solid picture on WBNS-DT whenever they are on the air.

For me and most Daytonians, the Columbus digitals are harder to get than Cincinnati because the terrain between Dayton and Cincinnati is flatter and they have taller transmitting antennas in Cincy than Columbus. I am at 1000' above sea level. There is a 1200' hump running North/South about half way between Dayton and Columbus, centered at South Vienna and I-70. This rise mid-way significantly cuts into the line of sight that UHF requires for solid reception. Currently, all the Columbus analogs are pretty snowy except CH 53, which transmits at 5 MW and has a tall antenna and is South of Columbus, where the rise is down to about 1100'. I currently am in the process of upgrading to a monster VHF ultra deep fringe antenna that will get me acceptable analogs for Chs 4 and 10 and marginal reception for CH 6. Ch 6 is the weakest analog for me, followed by CH 28.
Strangely enough, WSYX-DT CH-13 is the strongest (from my receiver's signal quality perspective) of all the Columbus digitals.

So in conclusion, Columbus is hard to get from Dayton and it may take extreme measures to get them. At this range, every mile closer helps, so you at least have that on your side.

Greg

Good point. I always wondered why Columbus was hard to pick up (I remember trying to get analog 10 to get a Browns game one time and had no luck.) When I was living in a higher spot I could usually get 99.7 WBZX FM on my radio by nulling out 99.9, but I imagine that "ridge" between Dayton and Columbus does put the kibosh on a lot of TV reception, UHF band in particular, unless a tower is used.

Cincy would be fine, particularly WXIX (when it's working). Given the stories about Sinclair and HDTV, I'm not getting my hopes too high about WRGT being ready for HD when Fox goes 720p in the fall.

Attached is an elevation profile From WSYX/WTTE Tower(on Right) to Intersection of SR 235 and Dayton-Yellow Srpings road(On left) -- Used WSYX-DT 13's antenna height(1715FT ASL) for the "blue stick" which I drew in on Right ... Keep in mind, this Doesn't take into account curvature of earth, so the situation is a bit worse than this ... For his specific location, Hard to say how much that rise to ~1200FT would be an issue, the exact antenna heights(and frequency of operation) for each station involved might come into play -- Although I'd say he's got a good shot at it, given a decent outdoor antenna --- 1st adjacent WKEF 22 might be more of an issue for him than in Voyager 6's case though, since antennas generally don't have as good of a F/B ratio ...as what they can reject "off the side". Also, Some Terrain nearer to his location might actually be more of an issue, considering the distance involved ... Of course, this is "squeezing" 51 miles of terrain into a few inches, it actually "looks" a lot flatter than this ....

Thanks for that terrain data! How do you generate those?

1450KHZ,

I used Delorme's Topo USA (WSYX tower info from FCC CDBS info) ... Actually bought it for Hiking/orienteering purposes, but it works nicely for this too ... Fun to play with anyway ... Radiosoft has a package that does detailed Longely-Rice propagation studies w/terrain data/etc, but I believe it's quite expensive.


I think WSFJ-DT 24(Newark) is using a Mouse on a wheel to power a generator for their transmitter ... Current FCC data shows they are running a 916 WATT ERP STA ... Didn't look to see if they were using a directional antenna pattern ...

Anyhow, WSYX 6 used to have seemed to throw a bit more signal to the West, however, earlier this year, they made some tower modifications in order to also accomodate WSYX-DT/WTTE-DT/WTTE antennas(added a crossmember on top/etc), which If I recall also resulted in a bit of an increase in height for WSYX 6 antenna. WTTE used to be on WOSU tower, which is NNE of Downtown Columbus ... In order to help protect WRTV 6(Indianapolis), I think they used a beam tilt(possibly a change in the radiation pattern too - I'm too lazy right now to look it up) for the Channel 6 antenna which would favor the West Less .. I do know, that most of the time, I used to get WRTV 6(Indy)/WSYX 6 at about the Same level(depending upon how antenna was aimed), now, WSYX is usually very weak here now, oftentimes I can only get it via FM receiver tuned to 87.75MHZ. Of course, 88.1 in Dayton is also a problem for me here when aiming to the NE ....

Attached are a couple of screenshots I took(sorry about the quality - Taken w/digital camera) from WSYX-DT a couple of Days after they went to the "new antenna", during a news story on their Tower work with some nifty video - As you can see, the CH 6 antenna(on top right in left photo) appears to be "tilted" a bit :

Anyone hearing a "skipping" sound in WHIO audio on 41-1 tonight?

Jeff,

Your explaination of the antenna change explains why WSYX-6 is so weak compared to Channels 4 and 10. On my Winegard PR5030 VHF antenna currently at the top of the tower, I am very lucky to get anything on Channel 6, but I reasonable moderate to slightly snowy pictures on Ch 4 and 10. Channel 10 shows a lot of digital noise from WCPO-DT. My Delhi 307, with a narrower reception angle gets a much clearer picture at ground level. 3-6db on both 4 and 10 than the Winegard. When the weather warms up in a month or so, I will get the nerve to put the Delhi on top of the tower and hope to pick up even more signal. Ch 6 with the Delhi at ground level will barely pick up a picture, but almost always does. At height, I expect a snowy but 24/7 watchable picture.

I expect the curvature of the earth to cause a break in line of sight in your chart. Your line was only about 100' from intersecting the midway rise.
If line of sight on a 1000' antenna is about 60 miles, then 30 miles equals about 300' drop ((1-.707) * height). So the midway rise puts you out of line of sight under even a conservative estimation.

1450KHZ,

Yep, saw your post and checked it during ~21:15 ad inserts, and That's what I've also heard from them on occasion before. Back to Fox Widescreen on WXIX-DT Cincy which has come on air for first time in several days at some point between this afternoon and present ...

Actually, Terrain between Dayton + Cincy is generally Hillier than between Dayton and Columbus -- But, None of the "hills" between Dayton and Cincy are as high as the seemingly Flat ground between Columbus and Dayton, such as the ~1200 FT rise. There are some "high spots"(not quite 1200FT) in the Kettering/South Dayton area which I had thought might be an issue for Your location however ....

Also, The Transmitting antenna heights of Columbus and Cincy stations are very much the same, with the exception of some LP analogs, and WCVN/DT in N KY.

Follows are the antenna heights of Various Cincy/Columbus stations, as currently "configured" ...

Columbus DT stations Transmitting antenna Height Above Sea Level :

WSYX-DT : 1715FT ASL
WCMH-DT: 1660FT ASL
WWHO-DT: 1824FT ASL
WBNS-DT : 1718FT ASL
WOSU 34: 2017FT ASL
WTTE-DT : 1665FT ASL

Cincinnati DT stations transmitting antenna Height Above Sea Level :

WCPO-DT: 1578FT ASL
WCVN-DT: 1099FT ASL (Tower in N KY, Likely out of range for N Dayton)
WXIX-DT: 1660FT ASL
WKRC-DT: 1632FT ASL
WSTR-DT: 1765FT ASL
WCET-DT: 1761FT ASL
WLWT-DT: 1705FT ASL

----------------------------------------------


I don't think calculating "RF line of sight" and how much that midway rise would put you "out of" RF line of sight is quite that simple ... You would really need to do something such as a "detailed" longely-rice propagation study which takes terrain into account to get the best idea of reception chances for a specific location ... Either that, or just try it, it seems to be working for your specific circumstance ... Again, I might be wrong as I would agree that it is a fairly "close thing" but, I'd say 1450KHZ has a good shot at getting reception of the Columbus stations given a decent outdoor antenna setup, and, I've certianly seen good reception occur in worse cirucmstances ....

For ONE thing, there is optical line of sight, and there is "RF line of sight", RF line of sight is ALLWAYS farther than Optical line of sight, even on UHF. Although the effect is more prevalent on the longer VHF wavelengths, Even on UHF frequencies(at all times anywhere on surface of earth), Signals on VHF/UHF(again, VHF moreso) will be "bent" beyond "optical" line of sight(curvature of earth, hills) a certian amount, basically, by "properties" of the "air" (Humidity/dewpoint/ etc) ALL the time ...

Depending upon the weather, The effect sometimes becomes much more pronounced in certian areas(such as ours which isn't as arid as say, the desert SW, but we don't generally get a lot of "enhancement" during the dry, winter months) when we receive more distant stations than is usually possible beyond curvature of earth via what we call "tropo scatter/Tropo ducting", but Tropo(short for troposphere) scatter(also called Ground Scatter) is ALLWAYS present to a certian extent, effecting both VHF and UHF frequencies.

This "constant ground scatter" is mostly why I receive WCMH 4 from 78 miles(some 15-20 miles or so beyond what should be "RF Line of sight" by most calulations) given their antenna height) All the time, "generally" Watchable about 70% of the time(again, more pronounced because of the longer VHF wavelength involved) and I get a bit of indication of signal from WSYX-DT Most of the time, and at least audio from WTTE 28 ~90~95% of the time -- All with WORSE terrain conditions than is present at your, or 1450KHZ location .... I also USED to be able to watch WBNS 10 much of the time(It, and "way back" when NBC did NFL WCMH 4/WAVE 3 louisville especially worked nicely for Bengals games -) ... Until WCPO-DT came up in 1998 that is I do still see them occasionally w/ant aimed towards Columbus, but it's usually a real mess ....

We'll see what happens, I'm just going to hook it up and see what I get. I think there's a shot at getting some the Cincy stations, because this Terk P.O.S. that I have right now gets a sniff of WLWT-DT every once in a while, plus I can see analog WCET and analog WXIX.

I'll update once I get everything hooked up, but it'll be a couple weeks before the new antenna gets here.

This area can get interesting for tropo during the right months. I've noticed a lot of activity on the FM band in the early mornings leaving for work, but I've never really looked at the activity on TV (as I was getting everything off cable prior to getting my DTV receiver).

1450khz,

I noticed that too on WHIO-DT last night during the shows I was sampling, Joan of Arcadia and then J.A.G. It doesn't seem to be a general reception drop-out problem, since the signal strength on the MDP-120 remained high and the video looked OK (OTA). It sounds like very short audio-only drop-outs.

I noticed the same thing a week or two ago on WHIO-DT but it later stopped and I thought it was fixed. Maybe someone who gets CBS HDTV by cable or satellite can enlighten us as to whether this is a network problem or limited to WHIO-DT locally.

Kevin

The video looked fine at my place too. It just sounded like a "skipping" noise in the audio. I noticed that it seemed to continue through the network commercial breaks and the local breaks too, so it could have been an encoder problem at the local station.