Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - Page 3

Well, as a follow up, I've been checking WXIX-DT off and on all day, and I continue to experience reception problems. Never had a reception problem before with them. Audio/video dropouts and much lower readings than normal during all hours -- So I doubt if interference from a distant station is causing all the difficulty. Probably shouldn't have said so earlier, as from previous experience, I would expect to be able to see/hear something from the interfering station on my analog only TV if it were strong enough to cause WXIX-DT difficulty.

Hmmmm. I haven't checked WXIX-DT lately. It will be nice when this technology moves beyond "hobby" stage with the local stations. When was the last time their analog signal was down several times a month?

Last night we watched NYPD Blue on WCPO-DT and I was really impressed with the PQ. The source material, ABC feed, and WCPO-DT broadcast bandwidth seem to be much better than WHIO-DT/CBS/CSI&CSI-Miami. During the NYPD fast cut scenes, just after commercials, we didn't see any pixallation. We regularly get pixallation on CBS.

I wonder if the whole CBS programming package is going to be lower bandwidth? If the HDTV - "It's all here" promo and prime-time programming are any indication, it looks like CBS might wanna check out ABC.

I don't want to knock CBS, cause I love having the HD programming. It would just be nice if they would do the extra 5-10%....

What to you guys think? Do you see a difference?

Evan,

Yes, I see a difference, although I haven't noticed much of a pixellization problem from CBS with anything besides live sports and the "It's all here" promo. I'm guessing that it's because our local affiliates might not give entire bandwidth to HD because of datacasting/etc.

CBS uses 1080i, as does NBC. Pixellization wasn't a problem during NBC HD Olympics, or any other NBC programming via WKEF-DT or WLWT-DT.

ABC, however, uses 720p HD, which (I think)requires a little less bandwidth for mpeg compression, and whose 60fps progressive nature also most likely "helps" to cut down on "jaggies". Although WCPO-DT upconverts the source material to 1080i for broadcast, the source material(ABC Feed) is 720p format.

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Got a note from WKEF-DT CE reporting that they are back on the air as of 10:30AM! Took a quick look at 11, and I'm receiving them fine here.

Concerning WXIX-DT, I'd be interested to know what you guys are seeing, I'm becoming convinced again that it's some sort of interference problem I am experiencing lately. I noticed last night that I could aim antenna way off target from Cincinnati, and that made all the dropouts/breakups go away.

As the night progressed, I ended up having to point farther and farther off target to get dropout free reception, last time I looked, only a 2 or 3 degree difference in heading, with antenna pointed over 90 degrees off target towards Indianapolis would work! At the same time, If antenna was headed towards their Tower, I get a blank screen, and an occasional bit of audio. The same thing happened night before last, with things improving during the day yesterday, but still with audio/video breakups and lower readings than normal.

So, I'm back to my original guess. Since I can receive them fine if I point antenna way off target, it surely seems like CCI from a distant station, but it's awfully surprising it has had an effect 24 hours per day! Only other thing I can think of, is some other sort of more localized interference, but, if that is so, it's awfully strange it's varying in intensity, as Interference from a station received via skip would. Don't think it's anything on my end, such as the preamp going south, as all else is normal.

Jeff,

I've always had to point my antenna a little off center to get a clean lock on WXIX-DT, but never that far off. When the meter on the Samsung indicates full strength, it has drop-outs and is very pixellated. If I aim it about 6 degrees or so West of their tower, the meter goes lower but then I get a perfect lock.

I don't know if it's changed any the past couple days as I haven't watched WXIX, but I'll check it tonight when I get home.

Paul

If you guys are tuning around tonight, you might want to do some looking/scanning/autoscanning to the Southwest. Especially right now, you might be surprised at what you see. Careful though, if you catch the DX bug, the wife might start hiding the remote from you

I've been occasionally scanning for Tropo DX today off and on, and the way things look, If it's been like this the last few days, I can certianly believe Tropo induced interference from WKSO 29 Somerset, KY (188 Miles - It's Antenna is at a whopping 2503FT ASL) has been a factor for my WXIX-DT reception. Especially since it's right on the same heading as WXIX from my location. Unfortuently, I can't really see it through WXIX-DT's digital snow, or get an indication of a "pipeline" from Somerset area into here, as they are the only Somerset station I know of, except for their Digital, WKSO-DT which is unfortunetly on 14 as is local WPTO 14 Oxford analog. I have seen fairly continious CCI to local WCVN 54 (KET) the last few days, most likely from WPXK 54 in Jellico, Tennessee (I've seen WPXK actually visable instead of WCVN when they have been on air, on average it probably happens about 1x per month. I haven't seen WBXX 20(220 Miles) also in Southern TN since Sunday, and I see that one quite often when things are decent to the south since its tower is way way up there. Many times, the skip will jump right over Lexington, and I'll see WBXX, etc instead.

I've continuously seen good signals out of Louisville, Lexington, Indianapolis and even Terre Haute(WBAK 38, 161 miles) pretty much all day long Today. WTTV Bloomington, Indiana(93 Miles) has been solid all day long, although it looks like I'm now seeing CCI to it from a more distant station on 4. Easy to see the CCI when watching an analog station! Also, Currently, many of the Louisville stations are currently in here almost as strong as locals, WHAS 11 and WLKY 32 are really booming in here right now.

Folks in KY have been reporting seeing stations from 500 Miles away out of arkansas, alabama and Missouri off and on since Sunday morning. There's been so much analog noise, I'm not having much luck with Digital DX, but on Sunday, I did see a station briefly pop up on channel 33 out of Tuscaloosa, AL.(453 miles). I wasn't able to fully ID or log it, but info from another Dx'er in Indianapolis who did ID it indicated I was seeing the same dumb infomercial they were broadcasting at the time.

While more common in Gulf Coast states, This is rare in our area to see DX stations via tropo continuously, day and night, but it certianly is happening today. It might get really wild later tonight or early tomorrow morning.

Jeff

Sorry to repeat myself in Cincy thread and here, but to follow up on this issue, my WXIX-DT reception is back to normal this afternoon, and the distant stations are all gone since sometime this morning. Getting Solid 88 reading, no dropouts when aimed towards WXIX-DT tower. Last time I looked though, there was no audio, but my guess is that the problem is coming from the station.

Looks like WHIO-DT was down early in the evening last night. They were back up in time for CSI. ER looked great on WKEF-DT, although they forgot to switch to HD for the first minute or so.

You gotta love prime-time in HD!

I still think that CSI and CSI Miami are about as good as I've seen for HD PQ. Now if they could only get that Saturday football game to look that good...

You're right--you gotta love prime-time in HD. But so many opposing shows...which one to watch...geez, now I need an HD recorder. It really pains me to tape on VHS anymore. How quaint!

I was just Channel Surfing, and for the first time ever I caught the It's all here promo on WHIO-DT --- YUCK! The compression artifacts are far, far worse than I've ever seen them on WKRC-DT, and I thought they were bad there up until the last few weeks! There is NO WAY they are giving it the entire bandwidth that they could be, they must be datacasting or something.

As of right now I am not getting any audio on WXIX-DT, is it still like that for you guys? Also, are WRGT-DT and WLWT-DT still off air? - I am not seeing those either.

Thanks, Justin

Justin,

Yep, WLWT-DT still off air, For the last few Days, WXIX-DT has had no Audio except for during Fox Feeds that I've noticed.

WRGT-DT is off air, They were off air last weekend as well. Just a guess, but I'm thinking they are doing this to save $ on power bills, as I believe the FCC allows this sort of thing.

Next time I'm in contact with their Chief Engineer, I'll ask. Really, this isn't a problem for me, as their analog on 45 looks just as good as the digital SD--- I suppose though that it could be a problem for those who get a ghosty, poor signal from the analog from indoor antenna/etc.

But I can certianly live with it, even if they were to stay off air on a temporary "permanant" basis, and put the money saved from running their transmitter into equipment for passing through Fox 480p ED, or for running WKEF-DT at higher power so that folks in outlying areas have a better shot at receiving them.

Just my .02

Jeff

Nither WXIX-DT or WRGT-DT pass the 480p when available? If not, that sucks. My wife is excited for the new season of Boston Public which i think is supposed to be in 16x9 480p. Even if they don't pass the 480p I would still rather watch in 16x9 on the digital feed (I would need some audio though).

WRGT-DT doesn't pass the 480p feed, at least not so far.

WXIX-DT does pass Fox 480p occasionally -- The only problem is, they don't often do it correctly and it turns out being in "Weirdscreen" instead of Widescreen -- It looks like they don't process the Fox 480p feed correctly, and if programming is 16x9, it ends up "squeezed" into 4x3, If it is supposed to be 4x3 480p, it ends up squeezed into a square, 3x3 frame -- Prdocing Tall, skinny, squeezed looked people among other things.

Hopefully though, they have the "weirdscreen" issue worked out, there have been signs(They've done it right a few times in last couple of weeks) lately that they have it straigtened out -- Took them at least over 8 months to do it though! You can look through the Past Cincy threads for further info on the "weirdscreen" problem.


Didn't catch the game last night, and there wasn't audio on WXIX-DT for the Green Bay Vs. New England game Yesterday afternoon, but other than that in the last week or so, although their Local programming etc. hasn't had audio, the feeds from Fox, including the Baseball games, Have had Audio.


I also watch "Boston Public", and am looking forward to the New season and hopefully being able to see it in Widescreen on WXIX-DT!

Just checked while eating lunch, and audio is back on WXIX-DT for upconverts/local programming! Hopefully it will stay that way.

WRGT-DT is back on air as well, just like last week, "off for the weekend".

BTW, "American Dreams" and "Boomtown" looked Great on WKEF-DT last night!

Sorry portions of this post are duplicated in Cincy thread, sometimes it's difficult to seperate Cincy/Dayton issues!

YUCK! - It's all here Pixellization on WHIO-DT

Jeff,

We watched WKRC-DT last night, and I agree, it's a lot better than WHIO-DT when it comes to pixellization. Even CSI-Miami was very good, much better than it looked on WHIO-DT last week. If I call WHIO again (I still haven't heard back on the blue line problem) I'll ask them about their current bandwidth setting.

For now, I'm sticking with WKRC-DT....

Evan,

If you're making a call to WHIO, you might also want to ask them why they keep dropping off the air every 10 minutes. They keep beating their chests about having a digital station, but so far it leaves a lot to be desired. Blue lines, pixelization, signal drops...it's all here!

Paul

Paul,

It's all here --- LOL.

I've been watching WHIO-DT quite a bit just to see about the every 10 Minute or so signal drop thing, but It's been quite a long while since I've seen it happen -- Probably a month or more, although I have seen them off air completely for more extended periods since then. I Might be watching at the "right" times though, instead of the "wrong" time.

Jeff,

It was still happening this weekend when I was watching. I guess maybe I'm the one that's watching at the 'right' time.

Paul

Paul,

I've definitely seen the problem before, just not recently. in fact, last winter and spring it was so bad you could pretty much use a stopwatch and predict when the dropout to 0 would occur.

At first, I thought it was a reception problem, related to the fact that I'm at the worst possible bearing concerning the radiation pattern(according to FCC info) their antenna is "situated" for, which is the case most likely to reduce any possible interference issues with a 41 analog in Louisville. In fact, I'm probably exactly on the opposite side of their tower from their DTV antenna(although that shouldn't be a problem from my distance).

However, I soon found out back in the spring that everyone else I talked to in Dayton area was experiencing the same thing, no matter where they were. It's Difficult to diagnose on our end though, as it "looks like" some sort of interference or multipath problem, except for the strange "almost stoppwatchable" aspect of it.

I explained the problem in detail in a message I sent WHIO, but I never received a response so pretty much gave up since we generally get such good service from WKRC-DT. It certianly would be much more of an issue for me though if I were in say, Sidney, Ohio or Richmond, IN, or other areas close enough to Dayton and too far from Cincy.

Paul/Jeff,

I haven't called WHIO back, been too busy. (That and my wife makes fun of me for calling the TV stations... ) We ought to figure out all of the things we need to ask, and each call in short order. I don't think they take single callers seriously. Do you guys know who is in charge at WHIO?

Hopefully we'll have another station we can call in 2 weeks. I need WDTN-DT for NYPD Blue. I kept getting lots of picture noise last night on WCPO-DT. My signal meter would peak at 100, but bounced down to 50 every 2-3 seconds. I ordered a Channel Master 7777 amp, but its on backorder. Hopefully it will do the trick.

Evan,

Excellent idea concerning having more than 1 person try to contact them around the same time period. Maybe then they'll get the idea that somebody is watching their station.

I have no idea who to try to contact at WHIO, I certianly haven't had any luck at it. I believe I sent them a message not too long ago with link to this thread inviting them to either join us, monitor us or both.

Hard to say what's causing the problem you are seeing on WCPO-DT, but, the preamp will hopefully do the trick. Strange that you're actually seeing noise though, perhaps it's a "feature" on your receiver similar to what you get on 30-2.

Just as a guess: Perhaps WBNS 10 Columbus analog is occasionally increasing noise levels enough to produce a problem. From my location, only once that I can recall, and only for a few minutes have I seen CCI from WBNS 10 Columbus be strong enough to cause dropouts on WCPO-DT when my antenna was aimed correctly, but I can almost always get an analog lock on WBNS's signal if I aim antenna towards Columbus.

Also, I can often see WBNS through WCPO-DT's digital "sparkly" snow -- on analog TV if headed towards Columbus --- While I can't see a digital station's snow on the channel it's broadcasting on when it's "by itself", I can detect it when an analog signal is coming through it. Best way I can describe it is, it makes the weak analog look like it has "sparkly, Big snow" in with the signal.

My guess is, the Closer to Columbus(76 Miles from me) you are, the more that noise from WBNS would be an issue, and the more important having a very directional antenna would be -- Preamp might also keep the WCPO-DT signal above the noise enough 99+% of time, especially from your location.

Even if you can't detect WBNS signal if you point antenna towards Columbus, I think it's likely that its signal is raising the noise level at least a little on 10 for you --- probably all the time, but even moreso when atmospheric condtions are good towards Columbus -- Doesn't take much "enhancement" with a decent antenna setup to see a station from 76 Miles, which would probably be more like 60-65 miles from Centerville.

Take it easy,

Evan,

Doesn't your wife know you're doing important work?

I don't know anyone at WHIO. It really hasn't been worth my effort considering how well WKRC comes in up here in God's country. When I get ticked off, I just switch the channel. I'm sure WHIO's advertisers would like to know that.

I'm with you on the WCPO reception. It reads about 1/2 way up on my meter, then goes to zero--back and forth. Rarely can I get a lock. I hope that guy at WDTN wasn't being overly optimistic when he gave that on-air date of 11/1/02.

Paul

Pretty much my sentiment too, as long as the "other channel" is on the air.

It's working for even another channel tonight too. WKEF-DT - No HD for ED..... But our "backup" is back! If you guys haven't checked Cinci thread tonight .... WLWT-DT came back up this afternoon, and has ED in HD right now

Not trying to bash WKEF-DT though, they have been doing a great job lately providing NBC HD -- But right now they aren't.

I keep telling the wife we are pioneers! She thinks we're geeks Can you believe she would rather watch SD than a beautiful HD picture with a few seconds of picture/audio loss every minute? - I keep telling her she needs to get her priorities in order...

Not sure what was causing my WCPO-DT problems, Last week it was at 95-100% strength. The noise I see are the little squares you get when the signal is interrupted for just a second. I haven't checked it since Tuesday. Do you usually get a solid signal on WCPO-DT Paul?

I've got two names at WHIO. I talked to Steve Hardy a couple of weeks ago, and didn't hear back. I've also been forwarded to the voicemail of Chuck Eastman. Not sure if either are the right guys though.

Evan,

From what you described in your last post, I think it's very possible that impulse noise is causing you problems for WCPO-DT -- Interference from Impulse noise is generally more of a factor for VHF than UHF, and more of an issue the weaker a signal actually is. Among other things, It can be caused by such things as a ignition system from a vehicle driving fairly near your antenna, appliances shutting off and on in your house, even an overhead fan that is on or "nearby" the A/C circut your receiver or preamp uses.

Lightning is the only natural source of impulse noise I can think of, and since I most likely get a stronger signal from WCPO-DT here, a very close by lightning strike is the only thing that causes the "blocky "green" noise" (that doesn't necessarily cause a complete dropout) to WCPO-DT -- In fact, it's only happened 1 time that I've noticed, and the lightning strike that caused it was way too close to my house for comfort!

Concerning WHIO-DT, I have no doubt that the problems you guys are seeing are most likely originating at the station, but the problem I have with contacting them about it at this time is that I'm not seeing any problems currently except the "too much" compression issue during SEC football and "it's all here" promo.

I certianly didn't expect, nor did I have any desire to be a HDTV pioneer(i.e. "geek") ... I suppose it was kinda dumb for me to think so, but I thought that we were 1/2 way through the transistion, and that I would always see HD from local stations when available, as well as the same general level of service from the digital stations that is provided via analogs!

Silly me ... It really hasn't been "that bad" though in our area, but it could certianly be much better! I never thought that being a DTV viewer would require "work"(Contacting the stations, etc) - In a way, it's kinda fun, and I certianly don't mind when the "work" does, or at least "seems to" do some good(as in: when the station actually listens to us) ... But, it does get old. Especially when your counting on HD for such and such programming to show invited guests/etc.

I'm afraid I agree your wife on the dropout issue however, I wouldn't be able to stand that even once a day, let alone once per minute! Luckily, the only problem with dropouts I've really had was when I was seeing the every 10 minute stoppwatchable variety from WHIO-DT.

Update: I forgot to mention, an attic can be an especially bad location where picking up impulse noise off antenna is concerned, especially if there is A/C wiring for your house in the attic. Unfortunetly, a preamp will most likely make things worse if interference from impulse noise is a problem.

Also, again, keep in mind the meters on our receivers tell us virtually NOTHING about actual signal strength. In the best of circmustances, an attic installation will cut actual signal strength 25-50% from what would be achieved via a rooftop antenna. Search AVS hardware area+local reception info area for "impulse noise" and/or attic for more info.

Evan,

I usually get just what I was telling you; the meter bounces from half way to zero. I dare not call it signal strength as my friend Jeff will give me thirty lashes. Sometimes, late at night, it will actually stay at half and I'll get a lock and a really good picture. Of course, that never happens when NYPD Blue is on.
My friend Jeff did a topo map for me and there is a hill between me and WCPO's tower which may be affecting my ability to get a lock. It's funny though that WCPO's analog is my very best Cincinnati station, pq-wise.

I can understand your wife not wanting to watch signal drops every minute. Sorry, Evan!

Paul

Paul,

Certianly was never my intent to "lash" or "correct" you or anyone! I'm just trying to help+save some time and frustration if I can without making my responses even longer ;-) -- Along with trying to give as accurate and complete account of my OTA reception as possible, also in hopes that it might assist others.

I Hope my posts don't come off as "mean sounding" though, I certianly didn't intend that to be the case by stating things in as much of a "matter of fact" manner is possible, which is a bit difficult to do where OTA reception is concerned, as there are so many variables involved --

However, it would be even more difficult for me to put a "candy coating" on the stuff, and I think would even make it more confusing -- I know I am often easily confused! Also, my only intent is to try to help out and give something back via AVS as AVS was a great help to me when I was researching HD, OTA and HT stuff around a year ago.

There are often so many variables to figure out, and my respones on your WCPO-DT reception Paul may have been confusing, but in combination with the small bit of terrain blockage you have,(and possibly a bit of extra noise from WBNS) ... I DO think that along with those factors, signal strength is the main issue in your case where your WCPO-DT reception is concerned--

You're I think about 17 miles farther out from tower than I am, and probably 10-15 more "crow fly" miles farther out than Evan is. In other words, you're most likely "Close to the Edge" for a antenna at rooftop heights in the specific circumstance of WCPO-DT transmitting antenna height and concerning the power level they are running. I certianly could be wrong though, just telling you what I know concerning these things, and what I think might be the issue as always.

In any event, 2 weeks until WDTN-DT supposedly comes on line ... Fingers crossed here that they will "do it right", including ABC HD from day 1.

Jeff,
Good grief! Chill out. It was all tongue-in-cheek. You are the last person I'd bash. You help me too much! And I appreciate it!
Paul

Jeff,

I thought the same thing regarding impulse noise. I checked the whole house, if it was impulse noise, it wasn't coming from here. Must be those pesky neighbors, with their cable TV and their SD TVs!!

Not sure what it is/was. I guess I'll see next tuesday.

RE: WHIO-DT, I'm waiting for my preamp so I can reconnect my F38310. I'll compare the picture head-to-head with my main set. The blue lines are ALWAYS visible during dark scenes on the hughes STB. Until then, it's gonna be WKRC-DT....