Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - Page 25

Not necessarily ... You might find a use for it on a TV not hooked up to cable(They'll work at 480i with old analog TV's too - as long as it at least has composite inputs), or if you can put up a decent enough antenna, unless you have terrain issues, it's fairly likely that you should be able to pull in The Cincinnati stations+have a "backup" when the Dayton stations forget to flip the switch(or run alternate programming such as UD basketball/etc) ....or for rare, local HD such as WKRC-DT's WEBN fireworks in HD(They used the production truck used by MNF last year). Or, someone else would probably want it for a bit of a discount after you're done with it ... .... Or, you might move+HD isn't available over cable again .. It's not like it's going to just "stop working", once it's paid for its paid for, there are no monthly subscription fees ... I can't imagine not being able to find some sort of use for it ...

As far as antennas go, a $30-50 yagi or Bowtie is about the best your going to get ... Just because an antenna is "expensive" doesn't make it better, that's especially true when you are talking about snake oil antennas that look more like a scuplture than an antenna ....

As I've said before, with the luck we HD viewers have sometimes though, as soon as you buy the thing, they'll start carrying ABC/CBS HD on TW ... Just keep in mind ... WHIO-DT has been on the air with CBS HD since 2001 ... WDTN-DT with ABC HD since Jan. of last Year ... No telling how many days, months, or years it might be before either are carried on TW .. we heard over a year ago that TW Dayton would carry WHIO-DT/WDTN-DT "soon" ....

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Vader,

I wasn't trying to give you a hard time --- Just clarifying that's all ...

Certianly it probably wouldn't be too easy, unless perhaps you could get a decent antenna up outdoors ...you're already likely in a high, flat spot ... WDTN-DT transmitting antenna is non-directional, WHIO-DT's pattern should be very good to the north .... Indoors, and often especially in the attic is One of the worst places(anywhere indoors ain't so great really) for an antenna ... but again, Doc is 60 miles from Dayton towers and is getting the Dayton stations with an antenna in his attic ... YMMV of course ...

I wish I would have known about that T-150. I thought those boxes were long gone. I bought a display model almost two years ago that ended up costing me $200 after rebate. Best $200 I ever spent. I wouldn't mind having another one just to hook up to a 20" analog TV in the bedroom. The T-150 is a little quirky at times but well worth it for that kind of price.

Does an antenna like this need to be mounted outside/attic? I want an indoor one that i can hopefully sit right on top of the box.


I'm probably gonna give Time Warner another month or two before I purchase an ATSC tuner because as soon as CBS starts their all HD golf broadcasts, I know that I won't be able to handle missing that on a week-to-week basis!

Browerjs,

You could mount an antenna anywhere you can find a spot for it ... A multielement Yagi/multibay bowtie probably isn't going to work well for you in your "living area", due to the size ... Outside is usually best ..... As I believe I said before, from indoors, near a window that faces the towers is often best .... You never know, but I wouldn't count on being able to put it on the settop and have it work, unless top of your set just happens to be in a "sweet spot" for reception of the Dayton stations --- It's often important to find a "sweet spot" for the antenna, especially with indoor antennas ... There are so many variables involved, hard to say with any certianty what you'll need, and how easy it will be to get reception ... That's why we say YMMV ...Chances are good, given your location it will probably work fairly easily, though ... If you want to move a step up from the $2 folded dipole antenna I mentioned earlier in the thread, something like the "Silver Sensor"(You could put this on the settop, but again you might need to find a better spot for reception --- do a search, you'll find lots of info on it) might be a good idea for you....

Lots of great info on antennas + reception here:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Dr.Don,

My Samsung TS160 maps WKEF's channels as 22-1, 22-2

Hello all, my first post on this forum. I recently purchased my first HDTV from HHGREGG by the Dayton Mall. It is a Hitachi model T600 with the built in HD tuner. The problem is I am having trouble getting good , consistent reception through an indoor(attic) antenna. The antenna I bought was a powered RCA with rabbit ears and two adjustable signal amps, It really is an annoyance when one day I'll be getting in 51-1 great with a ~85 signal and the next day nothing, well ~30 at best. I really don't know much about OTA antennas since I am usually a sat man, so any help would be great. So one other thing, am I stupid or was thee Superbowl, the Grammy's and everything else on 41-1 only in 2.0? I love watching movies on 2-1 in 720p with 5.1 audio. Thanks for any insight and its nice to stumble onto such a good resource of local HD nerds like myself.

Interesting. Neither my Samsung T-151 nor my Zenith 1080 remap WKEF-DT. The annoying thing is that DirecTV's APG assigns 22-1 to WKEF-DT. But tune to the placeholder and you get nothing but the program information. Tune to 51-1 and you get WKEF-DT but, naturally, no program information. I have the same issue with WHIO-DT and WRGT-DT. Does your STB remap those? WDTN-DT and WPDT-DT both remap to 2-X and 16-X respectively on both of my STBs.

Doc

YES With the new equipment we will pass what FOX network sends us.

Roland, Tonight show looked great in HD on WKEF-DT last night, looking foward to Daytona 500 in HD!

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All,

Neither of my receivers will remap WHIO-DT, WKEF-DT or WRGT-DT either, which I personally like ... On one of them(DTC-100) I can actually turn off the remapping for all channels, I wish I could do it with my other receiver as well ... Would probably be a pain though on sat/OTA receivers that are "adding" the placeholders as blank, if you can't get rid of them, or the program guide won't "sync" ...

Anyhow, I'd assumed WHIO-DT/WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT weren't sending channel remapping info via PSIP, but that's just an assumption. I've also heard somewhere that some receivers may use info in the program stream instead of via PSIP to remap channels, also, perhaps some sat/OTA receivers might be able to do it with the EPG info from the sat and some not.


WHIO-DT (41-1) doesn't have the capabilty to send DD 5.1 ... I think the Only stations that do in Dayton are WDTN-DT (2-1), and WPTD-DT (16-5). I haven't seen WPTD-DT pass DD 5.1 all that often, just One HD soundstage last summer ...

On your reception issues, If you're in Kettering, you're very close to the towers, so hopefully it shouldn't be too difficult for you to improve your reception. Lots of different things might be causing your problem, many factors can be involved ... for one thing, the amplifier on your antenna might be getting overloaded and that might be causing you some problems. Something like a nearby FM transmitter can even overload the amp(which is very broadband)+cause difficulties. Something somewhat along these lines might explain why your seeing good reception one day+not the next ...If it helps, Unless they are having problems or are doing maintenance/etc, stations don't change the amount of power/etc they are sending out .... So, if nothing else, You might want to try adjusting the amps to the "low setting".

Finding a "sweet spot" to place your antenna+properly orient your antenna may also be of great beneifit -- It often is the most important issue involved. Also, You might have better results from indoors if you take the antenna out of the attic, and instead place it near a window that faces the towers(you might find another good spot too). I believe that is a "settop" type of antenna, you might also get better results from the attic if you mount a higher gain, directional antenna in the attic -- such as a outdoor antenna ... For best results however, mount the antenna outdoors+aim it towards the Dayton Towers(roughly West-southwest or so of your location).

If you're going to have antenna in attic, Might sound silly, but it might be useful for you to carry up a small TV+your DTV receiver into the attic with you+"optimize" your antenna's orietnation/posistion/etc. Moving it just a little bit to right or left/etc. can make a world of difference ... Of course, you(when you are in the attic), and anything else near the antenna(including the roof) will be somewhat "connected" to the antenna and therefore will effect reception ....

Although Terrestrial reception can and often will work from indoors --- basically+fundamentally speaking from a "antenna" standpoint --- Satellite+OTA are the same ... a Sat dish is an antenna too ... It's just a bit different "design" on the recieving antenna, and the transmitter is up in the sky instead of on a high tower on the ground ... Of course, DBS reception WON'T work from indoors at all .... Having the antenna indoors will atteunate the signal by at least 15db or so(that's a lot), probably even more as compared to what your antenna can "gather out of the airwaves" if it were mounted outside ... Multipath/certian interferece issues are also much more of a problem from indoors ...

Check out subsection of section 4 of the antenna link I posted in my reply to browerjs above, entitled "Attic? Why not" for more info on attic installations. Other info at that site should be benifical for you as well. Search this form for HOA or OTARD if you think your HOA or some restriction can keep you from installing an outdoor antenna on property you own or control... They can't ... It's the law ...

Hope some of this helps, Good luck+let us know how it goes ...

nitewatchman, thanks a TON for all the info. Like I said I am new to OTA broadcast, and you seem to have extensive knowledge. One factor that I think might be affecting my signal is I live in the Hills and Dales park and there are MANY large trees around, above and in the way of my antenna pointing. once it warms up I will deffinately get up on the roof with an outdoor antenna and give it a try. Thanks again!
-Josh-

Hills and Dales is only 1 to 2 miles from the antenna farm for Dayton. Your could put a piece of hook-up in the antenna input and pickup the stations. With amps that close to the antenna's you may be over loading the input to the receiver. I can pick-up the Dayton stations in downtown will a non-amp rabbit ears with no problem.

dtv insider, welcome to AVS! We always welcome broadcast engineers here and value your input!

I'd like to second what Paul just said!


Another excellent suggestion

I'd say this has a very good chance of working from Josh's location -- At least for some of them, maybe not for all 6 Dayton DTV stations, but it's certianly possible ... I know a fellow 4 miles from the towers in another area getting all his stations perfectly off a Paper clip used with his PC tuner card -- which is being used with a PC sitting on the floor, in his basement ...

Here, I can get the Dayton(12~14 miles) and most of the Cincinnati(27~32 miles) DTV stations with a UHF folded dipole+Rabbit ears for VHF(WCPO-DT Cincy on VHF 10) placed near a 2nd story window facing the towers(different window for Cincy/Dayton of course) .... The Analogs are a bit ghosty+snowy with that though+I prefer to use a better, outdoor antenna setup+ I get a few more stations with it+excellent NTSC reception ..Some nice "DX" at times too ..... Of course, I'm down in a very forested, small, steep valley, so that puts a bit of a "damper" on things ....

It really does work this well folks, but of course, YMMV ...

Anyhow -- I can't imagine why Josh would need to go outdoors for the Dayton DT's, or why a simple antenna setup wouldn't work ... Unless there is a "serious" terrain issue involved, a "modest" outdoor setup would probably work nicely for him for reception of the Cincinnati stations ...

Also, I'd suspect the problem he might be having with the amp might have more to do with the amp overloading+causing intermodulation distortion(IM) on certian frequencies ... Of course, Could be both IM+front end of receiver overloading ...

Sure does, remaps & gives accurate program info., also does the Ciny Locals.

I think some of the DirecTV boxes do the remapping and program info from the satellite.

I have the T165 (cable and OTA box) and the only channels that remap are 2-1,2 and 16-1,2,3,4,5.
The rest come up as 41-1,2, 51-1,2, and 30-1. The only guide info I get is from WPTD.

Yeah, it has to be a DirecTV APG function, as not all of the Cincy/Dayton locals HAVE program information in the PSIP. So, the 160 isn't reading the PSIP information, it's working off of the APG. My Zenith knows where the channel is supposed to be (tune to 22-1 and you get a signal level), but it won't display video unless the APG and the PSIP match. Apparently, the 160 doesn't have that issue. My 151 is ATSC only, so it only remaps if the station's remapping.

Doc

WBDT-DT 18 (WB Dayton) Remaps to 26-1 here as well. All the Cincy stations+WKOI-DT remap as well ....

Oops, I forgot about WBDT. Can't get Cincy stations with my current setup.

With everybody else in Dayton Having HD or Fox widescreen soon, I do hope we see WB HD from WBDT-DT soon as well ....

I haven't turned the guides feature on on the DTC-100 for quite a while(My Zenith Box doesn't "do" off-air guides or station ID via PSIP -- It does remap channels via PSIP though), but WPTD-DT is also the only dayton station I've seen send the off-air guides so far -- Cincinnati wise, I've seen the following stations send off-air guide/programming schedule info :

WCET-DT (PBS)
WCVN-DT (KET/PBS)
WLWT-DT (NBC)

OK, now I'm confused! So today is a pretty nice day and I got off of work early and decide to do some antenna troubleshooting. First off I haven't mentioned that on the top of my house is one of those ungodly huge old antennas, which I had been waiting for warmer weather to hookup, but today was the day. So I get onto the roof(which is no easy task since my house is nearly 30ft tall on a hill)and hook it up. To my dismay I got the same results as the indoor powered antenna. The most annoying part of all this is that I can do a signal check on the stations and literally watch the signal go from ~90+ to like 40 in a matter of seconds. The only station that gives me any kind of constant signal is 41. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. My TV is in the basement, but I've used RG6 wires for all my runs(thanks Mendlesons $35 for 700ft) and doubt I'm loosing much even though it is nearly a 70 ft run from the antenna to the set. I am completely at a loss for what to do, especially when you guys tell me you can easily pick up stations that are like 2 miles from my home from KY and I cant. I am wondering if my TV doesn't have something wrong with it, could that be possible? Again thanks guys for the help in advance!

jbh613

What do you see on the local UHF analog stations when using the "ungodly" antenna on the roof. Any ghosts?

Is that antenna aimed somewhat in the direction of the towers? I've noticed the signal bounces up and down when my antenna is off-target. One other thought; since you're so close to several of the radio towers, I wonder if you're getting some FM interference from them. Do you notice any herringbone patterns in your analog reception?

Paul

Dr Don, I do see a slight ghosting affect on channel 2 but no others.

PAul, not sure what Herringbone is?

So, I take it you are getting a clear, fairly snow/ghost/interference free Picture on Dayton analogs 2,7,16,22,26,40,45?

The problem you might be having is that you(basically) might be getting TOO much signal ...which I'd say is quite likely given your proximity to the towers ... Hence the suggestion to try a short piece of wire or a simple, unamplified antenna .... Also, If it is the case that you're getting too much signal,(using the antenna on the roof(if it is working OK) is defintely going to give you even much MORE signal than you're getting from indoors) adding attenuation in the feedline might be of help ... You can use passive splitters to attenuate the signal, or you can use attenuators ...

You could also try aiming the antenna South-Southwest to see what you get from Cincinnati stations ....Since you're on a hill in that area, you should be able to achieve excellent results with the cincinnati stations(analog and digital), If your "old" antenna on the roof is still in good shape an working properly ... If that works better than Dayton, it's probably a good clue that its likely you are getting way too much signal from the Dayton stations ...

Update: Herringbone is just what it sounds like ... "squiggly looking" lines running somewhat "diagnoally" across the screen(on analog stations) ... FM signals cause this sort of interference, You won't usually have a problem with this on UHF, unless a amp/preamp is being used ... Also --- You're so close to so many hi-powered sources of RF, there's a lot of stuff that could be "desensitising" your tuner -- perhaps making it difficult for it to be sensitive/selective enough to work properly ... Certian frequencies(channels) may be affected while others are not. Other sources of interference can be problems too, but they should show up on the analog stations too ...

Another thing you can do is use a non-screenblanking analog TV(one that will show "snow" on an empty channel instead of a "blue screen") ... Check the channels that should be "clean snow" to see if anything shows up there that shouldn't be ... For example, if you're seeing WKEF 22 on say Channel 38, that's a pretty good sign that you're getting way too much signal(WKEF 22 showing up on 38 should probably really only occur as Intermodulation distortion from a overloaded preamp) .... Don't worry if say channel 3,6(right next to 88.1 WDPR) ,8 (or anything that is on a channel right next to one of the dayton analogs) is a mess, that's to be expected ....

Lots more more detailed info on this stuff(including info on interference and pics of what "herringbone" looks like) at the link I provided in reply to BrowerJs about antennas on the last page ...

I keep thinking about that too .... If it were me, I'd try the other stuff we've been talking about first ... Experimentation is often key in cases when problems are encountered ...

But I wonder .... If I recall correctly, he is VERY very close to at least one, and quite close to several more hi-power FM transmitters as well(even closer than he is to the TV antenna farm, I believe) ..... Besides any possible problems that might occur from those signals being received "off the antenna" --- I also wonder(just wondering)..... : I don't know what frequencies would be used for the IF stage(s) in a DTV receiver, but I even wonder if its possible a signal, such as a very strong, nearby FM(or even something else - AM/a poorly shielded CPU in a PC/etc/etc/etc/) could even be "getting into" an IF stage in his DTV receiver and causing problems ???... After all, RF shielding on consumer equipment is generally not all that great .... I've never heard of anything like this happening with a DTV receiver, but probably doesn't mean it can't happen ....

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Update: What also might be helpful --- Is there anyone else who is near jbh613's location who can report reception problems or success along with info on the equipment(antenna/receiver) they are using?

OK, so I have been messing with this stupid thing all day now with no luck! I first tried the Cincinnati channels with the outdoor antenna and they are a no go, so after I scrapped that idea I tried messing with different antennas I had here in the house. I listened to all of your wonderful input and tried as many things as I could. First I cut a short wire and let it act as an antenna and nothing at all, all stations were ~23+- on the meter. I next tried an unpowered set of old rabbit ears I had while moving from place to place throughout the house (again thanks to the great deal on the wire from Mendelson's) and still, channel 2 would sometimes come in, but only long enough to laugh at me. This went on for about two hours or so. After accepting defeat with that idea, I then called in the reinforcements (my dad) who came over to lend a hand (and drink a beer.) So while my dad sat in the basement in front of the TV I moved the various antennas to different locations and tried just about everything I could possible think of and NOTHING! My reception is worse now than ever. He just left because we had called it quits and sat down to watch survivor, and it would lose picture about every two minutes. I still don't see how I can tune in the signal to ~90 and within a few minutes its at ~30. Doesn't make sense to me at all. I guess my next move is to hire a professional to come out and help. Anyone here know anyone who does that kind of thing?
-defeated -

Well, there is something "funny" going on, I'd say .... If you aren't getting anything from Cincinnati with the outdoor antenna(even the VHF analogs), something is wrong there too ... Assuming it is in good shape, and is a VHF/UHF TV antenna and not something else(and you're connections are good, and you're using the necessary matching transformer at the antenna given a 300 ohm load to match the impedance of the 75Ohm coax/tuner) --..... Maybe try hooking it up to a different TV+see what you get analog reception wise from Cincinnati ... Even if antenna is aimed off target, you should get something, but proper antenna aiming is usually necessary for best results ....

I don't know any knowledable antenna installers in the area(a field test with a spectrum analyzer would probably be quite useful), but perhaps someone else can refer you to someone. Or, Perhaps one of us could "tote over" our DTV receiver and a small bowtie antenna/etc. and see if we can get one of those to work ... That might tell us a lot ... I'd be happy to volunteer, but I probably won't be able to make it up for a while, as a family member here is having foot surgery tomorrow+will need some extra "help" for a while ...

Also, if it isn't a problem with your equipment/antenna setup/connections/etc, some of the folks at the stations might be interested in your situation as well.


It's possible. --- This shouldn't be the case with your model, but A fairly common problem with some external receivers is heat, and symptoms similar to what you are experiencing are sometimes seen+corrected by adding some extra ventilation.

I did do some looking at info on your Set on the net(I saw a review you wrote on a site BTW -- That's a nice display) Anyhow, it is probably one of the first of the "newer" sets designed with ATSC tuner included(among other things), and I haven't heard how "good" these things are where reception/RF performance is concerned ... So, there could be some "problems" with it I suppose ... You might want to do a search for it here, or in hardware area to see if other users have reported reception problems ...

It might sound strange, but a situation such as your location, so close to the towers and with so many strong signals around(TV And AM/FM broadcast) can be one of the most difficult reception situations, because the signals are so strong, they can "overload things", and basically make it more difficult for the receiver to sort out "what is what" ...

Some of the most common things that can cause your signal quality meter to bounce up and down like that are various issues which can generally be thought of as " interference or overload issues", as well as multipath issues. Since you're not seeing much ghosting on the analogs which are pretty much spread all across the dial(multipath can be quite frequency specific), It's still possible I suppose, but I doubt if multipath is the problem --- I know that from what I have seen here, and reports I've heard from others, significant static/dynamic multipath on the analog counterparts still=perfect DTV reception, since the equalizer in the receiver can easily handle quite a TON of multipath, given a decent amount of signal ...

OF course, It's possible a "common issue" might not be the difficulty you are having here as well ... As I said before, there are lots of variables and factors which can come into play ...

Another thing that might help you out that can be confusing(especially since some of these things say "signal strength" right on the screen, even though that's not what they're measuring) ... The meter in your receiver(and most DTV receivers I know of - but not all)probably doesn't really measure "signal strength", if it did, it wouldn't bounce around like that -- ever --- The signal strength from the station will remain very much the same(unless they're working on it/etc -- in which case we'd all see a change) .... Unless you have a windmill right by your antenna or something that is .... Best way to think of it is as a "signal quality meter" ... A fairly weak signal just over the threshold needed for good DTV reception(that threshold being 15.3db of signal over noise) can show high readings just as a strong signal can. In your location, there is no doubt that the signals from dayton would be VERY strong ..

First off, thanks alot Jeff and the rest of you on this forum,and jeff hope everything goes well at the surgery for your family member tomorrow. That being said, I was a little hesitant when buying such a new set, but it had all the features for a good price. Just a final thought though, would there be any chance that my wireless(802.11g) home network would be causing any problems, because I know it messes with my cordless phone sometimes. When I was first setting up the antenna I had it in the same room as the wireless transmitter. maybe not related at all.

I'd think the wireless network stuff would effect analog reception as well if it was a problem, but you never know .. might be worth it to try + unplug the transmitter+see if it helps any ... I had to move around some cat5 cable and a hub that was too near my antenna feedline in the attic, as it was adding "sparkles"(seen on analog TV/WAVE 3 Louisville -a local here)+Noise, but only to VHF channel 3 ... ferrite beads placed on the cables around the area involved can be of some help there ...

Also -- Thank you for sticking with us+letting us know how its going ... Let us know if you get any improvement+or find out what is going on ...

Alright, I think I have figured out the major problem, ME. Its really pretty stupid, while you guys were asking me about ghosting I thought you were referring to the DTV signals. So I don't have an antenna ran to the NTSC input of my T600, and its a real pain to get back there and do that. So I ran another wire from the outdoor antenna to my bedroom TV and viola, ghosting like crazy! Channel two and seven were really bad, but on a side note, I got all the Cincy stations. So now that I can kinda understand the problem, reflected signal, how should I combat it?