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AESpeakers TD Series group buy!!! - Page 8

post #211 of 768
i like 187. but that's just me.
post #212 of 768
187
post #213 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"with the intention of using it for a bass guitar rig."

you know better than anybody that guitar cabs are more like musical instruments than sound reproduction devices.

a guitar cab is what they want it to sound like.

a home audio system tries to recreate that sound.

you know all this, so what is the question?

Yes I do.

I was fishing for some comments on the TD18's top end >500hz. Do you have any links to share? Measurements? 18's often sound "dark" or "muddy" with full range bass guitar. The 10" drivers commonly used usually lack the bottom octave and you need a gaggle of them so the money adds up. The rest of the questions are what they are.

The idea being a lot of headroom, real extension for the fundamentals, and a single driver / point source for simplicity. We can add all of the tone and signal manipulation we want with a couple of stomp pedals and a Sansamp. Want distortion kick on the Ratt pedal or run through a Sunn. But when clean tone is what we want then squeeky clean/clear is the idea.
post #214 of 768
Hi Ricci,

The TD18 should work very well for your needs. It doesn't have quite the top end that other TD woofers do, but it still has some pretty good extension. findbuddha posted some measurements in this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post17609676

You are pretty good to about 2500hz. Keep in mind that it is going to beam significantly at that point so make sure that is taken into account. For live applications where the cabinet will be mic'd this works very well. The mic can be put in the center to pick up the whole frequency range, but the beam is very narrow so it doesn't get into all the other mic's on stage as long as it is aimed properly.

D'oronzo Sound uses a TD15M for their custom bass guitar cabinet. You can see 2 of them stacked here.
http://www.doronzosound.com/artist.htm

There is a TD15M measurement right next to the one that findbuddha posted of the TD18H. You can see that extends flat to over 4KHz. By 10KHz the response is only 15dB down. A simple dsp can EQ the response nearly flat to extend up to 10KHz to pick up the sound from the strings, etc. You could do similar with the TD18. It's a similar concept to using a fullrange feastrex, lowther, fostex, etc where you get one point source to cover the whole range. It has limitations but some very nice benefits too.

I think either with the TD18H or the TD15M the results can be very good. Locally here John Hanitz from Elite Audio has loaned out his dual TD15M midbass modules from his arrays to a few bass players who have heard his system. Many have wanted custom bass cabinets made claiming they have never heard a bass cabinet that could come close to the detail.

John
post #215 of 768
Thanks John. That's exactly what I was looking for. Beaming is pretty much par for the course with bass guitar cabs so I am not concerned with that much. I think a little shelf EQ could bump the 3k-7kHz response up quite nicely.

Are the TD18's 8ohm only?
post #216 of 768
ricci, obviously john j. hit your points. i was kind of hinting that the resonances of the bass cab impart that "something special" to the sound that is separate from the driver, so even if the driver performs well for accurate reproduction of the input signal, the overall sound might not be what one is used to or looking for. i can see how a cab that vibrates a lot or in a particular way could create a "richness" (various waveforms and harmonics like any other musical instrument) in sound that a clean driver and solid cab would not have.

"is that .725 cf sealed and 1cf ported?
can you do 2cf?"

smokarz, attached.

the reason that i suggested the 1 cf ported tuned to 50hz for the td12m is that it pretty much mirrors a the thx spec mains, which is for a sealed enclosure with a -3db point of 80hz.
LL
post #217 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Thanks John. That's exactly what I was looking for. Beaming is pretty much par for the course with bass guitar cabs so I am not concerned with that much. I think a little shelf EQ could bump the 3k-7kHz response up quite nicely.

Are the TD18's 8ohm only?

The TD18's are also available in 4ohm, according to what their store has always said. Not sure if alternate voicecoil options are available for this group buy. I don't see why not though.
post #218 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The parts can be purchased separately including the TD woofers through the group buy. The cabinet will be available for direct purchase on its own. When I get around to the passive crossover they will only be available fully assembled, but will be available separately. I'm still mulling over the many possibilities for an active option. Pricing will be available by Friday when we display the cabinets at RMAF (main floor, should be near PE's setup).

any news on pricing
post #219 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

ricci, obviously john j. hit your points. i was kind of hinting that the resonances of the bass cab impart that "something special" to the sound that is separate from the driver, so even if the driver performs well for accurate reproduction of the input signal, the overall sound might not be what one is used to or looking for. i can see how a cab that vibrates a lot or in a particular way could create a "richness" (various waveforms and harmonics like any other musical instrument) in sound that a clean driver and solid cab would not have.

I'm well aware of that. That is usually more applicable to guitar cabs anyway or very old vintage gear, some of which does have a certain sound to it. That is not what I am going for.

If a cabinet or driver has a certain sound, distortion, or coloration it will always be there. You can always add to or tailor the sound but you cannot remove an inherent coloration. This will be used for multiple groups, players and styles of music so it needs to be a clean slate so to speak.
post #220 of 768
roger that ricci.
post #221 of 768
Since the TD18H are pretty cheap would it really be that bad to use them as sealed 18" home theater woofers (covering ~20hz-100hz)? Whats out there that beats it for $312?
post #222 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

If a cabinet or driver has a certain sound, distortion, or coloration it will always be there. You can always add to or tailor the sound but you cannot remove an inherent coloration. This will be used for multiple groups, players and styles of music so it needs to be a clean slate so to speak.

That's pretty much what I said. Do I get like a piece of toast or a small box of raisins or what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Since the TD18H are pretty cheap would it really be that bad to use them as sealed 18" home theater woofers (covering ~20hz-100hz)? Whats out there that beats it for $312?

You're gonna want something with a lot more excursion for a sealed sub. Ported works well down to 20 but they get big.
post #223 of 768
How come there is almost no attention to the TD15X? When I model this sealed it looks like it digs the deepest in a smaller box than the S. Seems like all the love is for the 15M. Am I missing something?
post #224 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

How come there is almost no attention to the TD15X? When I model this sealed it looks like it digs the deepest in a smaller box than the S. Seems like all the love is for the 15M. Am I missing something?

Most people are looking at the TD15M because of mark seatons kit. Are you suggesting the TD15X for subwoofer usage?
post #225 of 768
What exactly is the difference between the X and the H TD15?

If I wanted to use the TD for a ported box and in a 3 way does it matter which one I would use?

I dont think I will be able to be apart of the group buy yet but wondered on using either a H or an X. And if John can four of these TD15ms hit 120hz at 10hz then I figured what more would you want. Did that sub have to have a Hpas or no?

Lastly on all these TD15 speakers if porting for say 15hz would the speaker still behave well up to 250hz or so? In comparison if the cabinet was tuned higher is what I am wondering.

I did some simple sims and the AV15 did dig deeper but just wondering what others thought due toi my limited knowledge of these speakers.
post #226 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

Seems like all the love is for the 15M. Am I missing something?

Apparently the "M" is a better midrange unit, and it appears many people are contemplating the "M" to merge with a CD.
post #227 of 768
Can the drivers be ordered with a different dust cap, if not, how easy would it be to paint the phase plugs black.
post #228 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Since the TD18H are pretty cheap would it really be that bad to use them as sealed 18" home theater woofers (covering ~20hz-100hz)? Whats out there that beats it for $312?

I don't think they are the best solution for sealed. I'd go with dual RSS390HF for about the same money if you want sealed.

The TD18H would be a great setup ported or PR'd. You could clone the JBL S1S-EX with a 6.5cu ft box tuned to 25hz with a B6 peaking highpass filter at 20hz. This boosts the lowend and controls excursion. Two of these would easily top reference from 20hz and up in even the biggest HT rooms. Extremely clean too. A single EP4000 with an 8 ohm TD18 on each channel would be perfect. For $900 + wood this would be an awesome setup. IMO, it is not a bad idea to forego the below 20hz stuff if your budget/space dictate.

If you have the space you could go with a larger box and less or no boost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

How come there is almost no attention to the TD15X? When I model this sealed it looks like it digs the deepest in a smaller box than the S. Seems like all the love is for the 15M. Am I missing something?

Like others have said, the TD15M works better in the midrange (300hz-1200hz) which is why it is more commonly spec'd for 2-way horns. You lose out on extension. IMO, extension is not needed if you are using bass management with a HT receiver or pre/pro.

The X, H and S drivers are fine drivers but you give up efficiency and there are some response quibbles higher up because of the different surround.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

What exactly is the difference between the X and the H TD15?

If I wanted to use the TD for a ported box and in a 3 way does it matter which one I would use?

I dont think I will be able to be apart of the group buy yet but wondered on using either a H or an X. And if John can four of these TD15ms hit 120hz at 10hz then I figured what more would you want. Did that sub have to have a Hpas or no?

Lastly on all these TD15 speakers if porting for say 15hz would the speaker still behave well up to 250hz or so? In comparison if the cabinet was tuned higher is what I am wondering.

I did some simple sims and the AV15 did dig deeper but just wondering what others thought due toi my limited knowledge of these speakers.

The X, H and S like different box sizes and tunes. It just depends on your design which would work best. What range do you want to cover and what box size? Modeling in Winisd is extremely easy. If you can post on the internet you can model subwoofers.

Four of the TD15's won't hit 120db at 10hz. He did this with the SBP15 which is similar, but I'd guess has a much lower Fs. It would take way too much boost for any of the TD15's to hit 120db at 10hz unless you were using them as headphones. I believe the study he is referring to is rather small as well. I'd guess he'd need at least 16-20db of boundary gain to reach 120db at 10hz with that much displacement.

There is a reason he sells the AV15 line. They are better suited to subwoofer duty, IMO.

I don't know why you are trying to achieve 15hz from the same woofer that will cover all the way up to 250hz. It is just not wise. The only reason I could see doing that is if you are a 2-channel "purist" and you won't run a separate subwoofer for some unknown reason.
post #229 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Like others have said, the TD15M works better in the midrange (300hz-1200hz) which is why it is more commonly spec'd for 2-way horns. You lose out on extension. IMO, extension is not needed if you are using bass management with a HT receiver or pre/pro.

If you wanted to run them as an active set up with something like the INUKE's wouldn't it make more sense to have an option with better extension since power wouldn't be a big concern with active? I plan to build a 2 way when I move into a new house, and want to get something that is most versatile for an unknown set up as of today. I was thinking if you could run the X at full range it would provide extra head room from 50-1500hz before it would be crossed over to a CD. Make sense or is my logic flawed? I'm just WinISD-ing it to death trying to make sense of it
post #230 of 768
Thread Starter 
FWIW, Since Wayne Parham (Pi speakers) has had great success with the TD12S in a two way. I think we should realize that even though the TD12M is the best mid range choice. The other models might just be better then most other mid range woofers on their own and they give great extension.

TD12M or TD15M are the ultimate mid range high sensitivity woofers but if you want to have great extension then you can go with the X or S versions. The love for the M series is simply because if we take its measurements against other 15" drivers people can see how different it is above 1KHz.

Conclusion, if the upgraded Pi3 can run the TD12S up to 1500hz then I see no reasons why DIYers couldnt figure out how to do it.
post #231 of 768
Speaking of the upgraded 3pi, got my order in for 3 TD12S - gonna do a 3pi build with the DE250 for my first DIY speakers. Replacing Swan Diva 5.1/C3 combo for HT duty. Now I have to figure out if I'm gonna do an IB or 2x DIY subs to replace my little Acoustech H100...
post #232 of 768
I would do DIY subs over an IB for two reasons.

1) It's your first DIY attempt, so messing up a subwoofer enclosure is hard to, and if you do mess up, you just start over...unlike messing up cutting a hole in the wall.

2) You can move your subs around. This means you can place them around the room and take measurements. Once you come up with the locations that provide the best frequency response, you will know where to cut holes in your wall for a future IB build should you want to go that direction. Having a quality sub to take in-room measurements is a must for any IB project, otherwise how will you know where to cut the holes?
post #233 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

If you wanted to run them as an active set up with something like the INUKE's wouldn't it make more sense to have an option with better extension since power wouldn't be a big concern with active? I plan to build a 2 way when I move into a new house, and want to get something that is most versatile for an unknown set up as of today. I was thinking if you could run the X at full range it would provide extra head room from 50-1500hz before it would be crossed over to a CD. Make sense or is my logic flawed? I'm just WinISD-ing it to death trying to make sense of it

Well, the better extension is a tradeoff and not just with efficiency. If you don't need the extension, then you should use the M version. It is simply better from 200hz and up. If you need the extension, you will take a hit in frequency response. You can correct for that surround resonance so it is not a deal breaker by any stretch. It is just a matter of intended use.

For my purposes, I'll take the extension hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

FWIW, Since Wayne Parham (Pi speakers) has had great success with the TD12S in a two way. I think we should realize that even though the TD12M is the best mid range choice. The other models might just be better then most other mid range woofers on their own and they give great extension.

TD12M or TD15M are the ultimate mid range high sensitivity woofers but if you want to have great extension then you can go with the X or S versions. The love for the M series is simply because if we take its measurements against other 15" drivers people can see how different it is above 1KHz.

Conclusion, if the upgraded Pi3 can run the TD12S up to 1500hz then I see no reasons why DIYers couldnt figure out how to do it.

Like I've said before, I'd guess the main reason Parham uses the TD12S is because it works for a larger market. His designs are intended for a wide range of people, some of which are 2-channel guys. Some 2-channel guys don't even use subs and most don't have proper bass management like HT guys. It is the same reason most retail speakers have extension down to 30-50hz. Some people have crappy sounding subs that are better crossed at 50hz. Some people are hanging onto ideas that IMO died 20 years ago like separate subs are bad or any processing is bad, etc.

If he designed using the M series he would lose all of the non-sub people and I don't blame him for making a more universal design.

IMO, if you have a capable sub setup (like most HT guys willing to spend $300 on a mid woofer should have), screw the extension and get the best midrange performance for your money.

BTW, I'm not knocking or saying people shouldn't build Pi speakers. I think they are a great path for DIYers because Parham has taken the time to implement a very nice passive crossover and has worked out all the kinks. It is a compromise, but a worthy one if you don't want to or have the capability to thoroughly design your own speaker, either DSP or passive. I'd rather have a slightly less than optimal mid woofer combined with a well-designed crossover than the world's greatest mid woofer and a poorly designed crossover.
post #234 of 768
yes, i was dead set on parham's 3pi, but you folks here here convinced me to go active so i switched my orders from the 'S' woofers to 'M'.

i am hoping some of you experts will come up with some pretty decent active designs around the TD12M or i'll be starting from scratch (not fun).
post #235 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

IMO, if you have a capable sub setup (like most HT guys willing to spend $300 on a mid woofer should have), screw the extension and get the best midrange performance for your money.

Along this same line of thinking, is there value in limiting the excursion of a TD15M by crossing it over to a TD18H ~200Hz? I'm a complete newb to modeling, but seems excursion runs out pretty quick under 100Hz

I'm going to be making the same TD15M/SEOS combo that's been batted around, cabinet either from Mark or EricH. Because of the group buy pricing, I was tempted to add a sealed TD18H to each the L and R and having it handle 60-240, then the TD15M for 240-1000 (or wherever the designs end up). Not eager to spend more on the crossover for a 3-way (was leaning towards active, so add another pair of amps...), but I don't tend to upgrade speakers all that often and was leaning towards doing it right the first time.

I have a couple of sealed Mal-X's that I intend to spread around the room for ULF, not sure how clean they are up top if I cross them at 100 or 120 to the sealed TD15Ms especially if they're called upon to do the super low stuff as well.

Having said that, I'm thinking that the fact that there's multiple Mal-Xs around to spread the load would allow it to play just fine up to a 100/120 cross, but that group buy price *is* tempting...
post #236 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

any news on pricing

bueller.. bueller..
post #237 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by moxxy*mig View Post

Along this same line of thinking, is there value in limiting the excursion of a TD15M by crossing it over to a TD18H ~200Hz? I'm a complete newb to modeling, but seems excursion runs out pretty quick under 100Hz

I'm going to be making the same TD15M/SEOS combo that's been batted around, cabinet either from Mark or EricH. Because of the group buy pricing, I was tempted to add a sealed TD18H to each the L and R and having it handle 60-240, then the TD15M for 240-1000 (or wherever the designs end up). Not eager to spend more on the crossover for a 3-way (was leaning towards active, so add another pair of amps...), but I don't tend to upgrade speakers all that often and was leaning towards doing it right the first time.

I have a couple of sealed Mal-X's that I intend to spread around the room for ULF, not sure how clean they are up top if I cross them at 100 or 120 to the sealed TD15Ms especially if they're called upon to do the super low stuff as well.

Having said that, I'm thinking that the fact that there's multiple Mal-Xs around to spread the load would allow it to play just fine up to a 100/120 cross, but that group buy price *is* tempting...

A TD15M in 3 cu ft with 150w will do 115db @ 1m in 2pi space. That is good for reference levels of 105db at 20ft and doesn't include boundary gain which is likely good for another 6db over most of the range of the speaker. With an 80hz LR4 high pass you are using about 3mm of excursion.

Would that introduce a little IMD? Yes. Would you be able to tell the difference? I highly doubt it. In reality, you are talking about levels you likely will never reach. Reference 105db is very loud and 20ft is far away. And you would actually use all three fronts so you would never really use all 3mm. I was really just making a worst case scenario. More realistically, it would never exceed maybe 1mm.

The only reason I could see using the TD18's like this would be if your subwoofers couldn't play cleanly above maybe 50hz. The Mal-x's, especially if you have multiples, will play up to 80-100hz quite well.

In a nutshell, it is technically superior, but I'd bet a well setup double blind test would be indiscernible. Beyond that, the midbass and midrange performance of the TD15M is likely so much better than anything you are used to or that you've heard, you won't be missing anything.
post #238 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post


A TD15M in 3 cu ft with 150w will do 115db @ 1m in 2pi space. That is good for reference levels of 105db at 20ft and doesn't include boundary gain which is likely good for another 6db over most of the range of the speaker. With an 80hz LR4 high pass you are using about 3mm of excursion.

Would that introduce a little IMD? Yes. Would you be able to tell the difference? I highly doubt it. In reality, you are talking about levels you likely will never reach. Reference 105db is very loud and 20ft is far away. And you would actually use all three fronts so you would never really use all 3mm. I was really just making a worst case scenario. More realistically, it would never exceed maybe 1mm.

The only reason I could see using the TD18's like this would be if your subwoofers couldn't play cleanly above maybe 50hz. The Mal-x's, especially if you have multiples, will play up to 80-100hz quite well.

In a nutshell, it is technically superior, but I'd bet a well setup double blind test would be indiscernible. Beyond that, the midbass and midrange performance of the TD15M is likely so much better than anything you are used to or that you've heard, you won't be missing anything.

Great information. Thank you. I have been trying to figure out the best scenario, which is similar to the above so I could get in on the group buy.
post #239 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

bueller.. bueller..

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...b428b79#p13334

Seaton posted some preliminary pricing. Pretty damn reasonable IMO. These are made in the same shop that builds his Seaton Sound and JTR cabinets.
post #240 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...b428b79#p13334

Seaton posted some preliminary pricing. Pretty damn reasonable IMO. These are made in the same shop that builds his Seaton Sound and JTR cabinets.

Hopefully those prices are shipped
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