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AESpeakers TD Series group buy!!! - Page 9

post #241 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I don't know why you are trying to achieve 15hz from the same woofer that will cover all the way up to 250hz. It is just not wise. The only reason I could see doing that is if you are a 2-channel "purist" and you won't run a separate subwoofer for some unknown reason.

I am not after chatting with a few others and learning that this will not sound very good at all. I was just wondering if it could be done and now I know.

I was thinking more about using the X of H in a ported 30-35hz range and use it up to 3-500hz depending on the mid I chose.

Either way I just wondered on the differences of H/X mainly. I kind of understood what the S and M was used for but it seemed like the X/H were the same roughly.

And after simulating the X, H and AV drivers the AV clearly wins on extension with the same box size but up above 65hz or so the other drivers are monsters.
post #242 of 768
The TD15M's are the midrange-midbass models. Four layer flatwire aluminum coil, high efficiency, accordion cloth surround. Bl^2/Re of 43.78 with mms of only 70g. As a result the efficiency is quite high at 97.8dB 1w/1m. Any time you can have less power input to reach the same SPL is ideal. Lower power means less thermal issues, less flux modulation, etc. Again, efficiency is GOOD. If you're using a separate subwoofer chances are the TDM is going to be your best bet.

The TD15S uses a 2 layer roundwire copper coil and the foam surround. Bl^2/Re of 37.5, mms of 108g and 1w/1m of 93.4dB. This has the least mass and the lowest motor strength gives it the highest Q. The higher Q makes it the typical choice in a sealed enclosure to get the highest F3 point.

The TD15X uses a 4 layer flatwire aluminum coil and the foam surround. Bl^2/Re of 49.6, mms of 105g and 1w/1m of 94.8dB. It is essentially the higher excursion option to the TD15M for midbass use.

The TD15H uses a 4 layer flatwire copper coil and the foam surround. Bl^2/Re of 62.2, mms of 129g and 1w/1m 94dB. The most mass and most motor strength makes it the best option for ported/PR woofer/subwoofer use. The more mass and motor strength can also be a good option for sealed subwoofer use with added EQ. The higher the mass and motor strength, typically the smaller the cabinet requirements.

Between the S, X, and H the cone/surround/spider assembly is all the same. As a result any physical characteristics such as surround resonance, etc are quite similar. The idea is just to give different options for the amount of mass and motor strength to best fit the application. They feature the same motor with the low and linear inductance. Info on the motor design is here:

http://www.aespeakers.com/Lambda001-1.php

I hope that helps enough and doesn't further confuse people on the differences.

John
post #243 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

I was thinking more about using the X of H in a ported 30-35hz range and use it up to 3-500hz depending on the mid I chose.

That depends on the frequency response you want and how much room you have for enclosures. If you don't have a lot of room, go with the H; 6-6.5cuft and a 32-30hz tune.
post #244 of 768
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Well, the better extension is a tradeoff and not just with efficiency. If you don't need the extension, then you should use the M version. It is simply better from 200hz and up. If you need the extension, you will take a hit in frequency response. You can correct for that surround resonance so it is not a deal breaker by any stretch. It is just a matter of intended use.

For my purposes, I'll take the extension hit.

We both would (and do) buy the TD12M for the same reason but if most people can not hear the "simply better" then does it really matter?? The added extension is a bonus at a sacrific of sensitivity.

It once again comes down to specific design goals, knowledge and acceptance of any compromises.



Quote:
Some 2-channel guys don't even use subs and most don't have proper bass management like HT guys. It is the same reason most retail speakers have extension down to 30-50hz. Some people have crappy sounding subs that are better crossed at 50hz. Some people are hanging onto ideas that IMO died 20 years ago like separate subs are bad or any processing is bad, etc.

FWIW, After all my research and experience the idea of a 80Hz XO point to separate bass between main speakers and subwoofers is a compromised solution that limits having the smoothest in room response and best time domain control. Instead I would go with Geddes premise of running mains full range and having "double bass" processing abilities.

The XO point of 80Hz (or whatever the the exact number 70Hz to 120Hz) is more about removing the flaws of the main speakers in the bass department. If we instead design main speakers that have high quality bass then we can use the to help with the big bad bass issues everyoen has.

Instead of thinking about removing main speakers from the bass equation I think in theory we are better off thinking about having main speakers compliment quality sub systems. Hard XO points do not allow for this.

Conclusion, there are in room bass response advantages to having main speakers play down to 30Hz at a high quality level. They allow us to have "extra" bass points and that can compliment very well with a mulitiple sub solution.


I never liked any 2-way waveguide solution with a F3 point at 70 or 80hz in the first place either, I understand the high F3 point is simply a fact of science (higher sensitivity, higher frequency performance = less low frequency extension). I always added bass bins below to extend the response.

It goes like this..
Main speaker with limited bass performance say below 80Hz + subwoofer system is a compromised choice.
Full range main speaker alone is a compromised choice.
Full range high performance main speaker + Subwoofer systems is hypothetical the non-compromised solution choice.
post #245 of 768
Penn, we are nearly on the same page. Where I differ with you is the idea that the mains should contribute to those additional bass sources. There is nothing wrong with having mains that extend extremely low, but you are stuck with using the locations which are most appropriate for the L/C/R speakers and not the locations that give you the best bass response. What is the advantage of having those bass sources in the L/C/R channels? IMO, stereo bass is a myth. The localization of bass frequencies below the schroeder frequency just doesn't happen.

Why not move those "bass bins" to the LFE channel and move them to where they give the best response instead of being locked into the L/C/R? Let's assume you still have the same number of bass sources, I'd rather have them "float" around to where they work best.

FWIW, Geddes effectively has 80-100hz crossovers on his designs. They are acoustic highpass's because they are sealed woofers and depending on the model have F3's in that range. I suggest adding an electronic highpass just to reduce unnecessary excursion on a driver that also produces midrange frequencies.
post #246 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

...
The XO point of 80Hz (or whatever the the exact number 70Hz to 120Hz) is more about removing the flaws of the main speakers in the bass department. If we instead design main speakers that have high quality bass then we can use the to help with the big bad bass issues everyoen has.

Instead of thinking about removing main speakers from the bass equation I think in theory we are better off thinking about having main speakers compliment quality sub systems. Hard XO points do not allow for this.

Conclusion, there are in room bass response advantages to having main speakers play down to 30Hz at a high quality level. They allow us to have "extra" bass points and that can compliment very well with a mulitiple sub solution. ...

Excellent point.
post #247 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

......Instead I would go with Geddes premise of running mains full range and having "double bass" processing abilities.......

Parham is also a strong advocate of this theory. However, I have never quite understand it. Is it a good (safe) idea to feed your main speakers the very low freq in movies. Asking your mains to play down to 20-40hz at reference (or near reference) level doesn't seem like a good practice.

I could also be completely misunderstanding this double bass thing with mains doing full range. Someone care to educate me?
post #248 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Parham is also a strong advocate of this theory. However, I have never quite understand it. Is it a good (safe) idea to feed your main speakers the very low freq in movies. Asking your mains to play down to 20-40hz at reference (or near reference) level doesn't seem like a good practice.

I could also be completely misunderstanding this double bass thing with mains doing full range. Someone care to educate me?

Perhaps the "double bass thing" is that the lower bass from the midrange drivers will participate in the distributed bass scenario. They will use their limited bass production to add to the bass output of all the bass producers including the required multiple subs in order to get rid of the peaks and valleys so that the bass will sound the same throughout the room. In theory, by not blocking the lower freqs. of the woofers you're helping to equalize the room. I suppose you could look at the woofer's lower range as equivalent to more subs in different positions which is a good thing. I think that a corollary of the Geddes sub theory is that the subs could be distributed randomly and it would be unnecessary to meticulously compute the exact optimum placement when you have a many sources. In theory, the more subs the better.
post #249 of 768
welcome to avs skywave-rider. i have enjoyed reading your posts on audiokarma in the econowave build thread for a long time.
post #250 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Parham is also a strong advocate of this theory. However, I have never quite understand it. Is it a good (safe) idea to feed your main speakers the very low freq in movies. Asking your mains to play down to 20-40hz at reference (or near reference) level doesn't seem like a good practice.

The geddes assumption is that the LFE flag in movies is separate from the music flag in full range music.
post #251 of 768
That's what i do not fully grasp.

Some music tracks go down to 30-40hz, so you're asking your mains to handle those very low bass at very loud level.

As for movies, I have heard discussions where the low freq is not always coded to the LFE channel so they still come through the LCR channels.
post #252 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

That's what i do not fully grasp.

Some music tracks go down to 30-40hz, so you're asking your mains to handle those very low bass at very loud level.

As for movies, I have heard discussions where the low freq is not always coded to the LFE channel so they still come through the LCR channels.

You are probably confused because consumer products and average DIY builds have whimpy mains and whimpy subs.
Then someone gets the idea to make their own subs superior to store product to mate with their whimpy mains and they visit forums
like this for ideas. After the subs are done, it stays this away, but eventually, an odd person or two will build good mains then the system is stamped successful.
post #253 of 768
It seems like a lot of people on this forum run their bass hot for movies... so everytime you are playing music do you have to fiddle around with your levels? (assuming you are in the crowd that dont want mains that can play into 30-40hz)
post #254 of 768
There have been a few questions on VC options. I figured I'd post the options here for everyone to see.

TD6M and TD6H are currently available in 8ohm only

All TD10, TD12, TD15 in M, X, S, and H are available in 4 or 8ohm. Any of these can also be ordered with the apollo option

The TD18H is available in 4 or 8ohm

There has been some interest in the apollo option for the TD6 and TD18. These won't be standard VC's that I stock, but I can order them in small quantity if there is interest. There is however an additional charge of $10-20 per driver. The VC vendor hits me with a high premium charge for any VC that do not meet the minimum quantities required.

John
post #255 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

That's what i do not fully grasp.

Some music tracks go down to 30-40hz, so you're asking your mains to handle those very low bass at very loud level.

That is why the Geddes speakers are sealed. The box serves as a high pass filter to minimize excursion.
post #256 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

There have been a few questions on VC options. I figured I'd post the options here for everyone to see.

TD6M and TD6H are currently available in 8ohm only

All TD10, TD12, TD15 in M, X, S, and H are available in 4 or 8ohm. Any of these can also be ordered with the apollo option

The TD18H is available in 4 or 8ohm

There has been some interest in the apollo option for the TD6 and TD18. These won't be standard VC's that I stock, but I can order them in small quantity if there is interest. There is however an additional charge of $10-20 per driver. The VC vendor hits me with a high premium charge for any VC that do not meet the minimum quantities required.

John

Hi John,

So $10-$20/driver VC and how much is the apollo upgrade for the td6?
post #257 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

welcome to avs skywave-rider. i have enjoyed reading your posts on audiokarma in the econowave build thread for a long time.

Thank you.
Obviously, I read more than I post.
This is a good forum.
post #258 of 768
How does one figure out what ohms to order their drivers in?

Iam planing on following Mark Seaton suggestions of having a horn+TD15M+(2)Td15H or a single Td 18 for the bottom.
post #259 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhisafa View Post

How does one figure out what ohms to order their drivers in?

Iam planing on following Mark Seaton suggestions of having a horn+TD15M+(2)Td15H or a single Td 18 for the bottom.

It depends on if you're active or passive and what you want as a nominal impedence and minimum. There's other things to consider but focus on what amp you'll be using and impedence. Imo, I would aim for a 4ohm system
post #260 of 768
Does anyone see any flaws in my plan of:
Buy td15M, buy seos-15, buy B&C/BMS/celestion, run it full active with minidsp and two inuke 3000s, have cabinets constructed locally or maybe by elemental designs (not sure). I figure ill have a speaker around christmas...
post #261 of 768
I don't really want to derail this thread with multi-sub discussions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhisafa View Post

How does one figure out what ohms to order their drivers in?

Iam planing on following Mark Seaton suggestions of having a horn+TD15M+(2)Td15H or a single Td 18 for the bottom.

I'd suggest going with 8ohm for versatility. Most likely any passive design will be done with 8 ohm woofers. For active, it is pretty much inconsequential.

Where did Seaton suggest that setup?
post #262 of 768
Which woofer the pi3 use? Is it the td12s or td12h?
post #263 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I don't really want to derail this thread with multi-sub discussions.




I'd suggest going with 8ohm for versatility. Most likely any passive design will be done with 8 ohm woofers. For active, it is pretty much inconsequential.

Where did Seaton suggest that setup?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21070459
post #264 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by datranz View Post

Which woofer the pi3 use? Is it the td12s or td12h?

"The TD15X uses a 4 layer flatwire aluminum coil and the foam surround. Bl^2/Re of 49.6, mms of 105g and 1w/1m of 94.8dB. It is essentially the higher excursion option to the TD15M for midbass use."

Why not go with the X option? Sounds like a good mix of the two.
post #265 of 768
omega, that is a path that many folks are headed for. that will help with the cd compensation slopes, crossovers, and delays. if you buy good components, even if you don't have the gear to optimize it yourself, there will be several solutions shortly.
post #266 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Does anyone see any flaws in my plan of:
Buy td15M, buy seos-15, buy B&C/BMS/celestion, run it full active with minidsp and two inuke 3000s, have cabinets constructed locally or maybe by elemental designs (not sure). I figure ill have a speaker around christmas...

The only issue I see is that you are overkilling the overkill with the amps. The CD might need 5-10w at most in a huge room. The TD15M, depending on placement and room size at most would need 150w and that is overkill unless you plan to sit 20' or farther away.

If you are planning on using iNukes, you might as well skip the MiniDSP and go with iNuke 1000DSPs. No need to mess with cabling, setting gains, etc. Probably a wash on price.
post #267 of 768
Does anyone know yet if the INukes are going to cut it for higher freqs? Im not a fancy amp man by any standard, but some of the class D amps don't sound so great up high. Then add Behringer to that......

Hate to see people buy all this stuff to go active and have hiss or distortion. Most of the cheapie amps we deal with here are for sub duty.
post #268 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

The only issue I see is that you are overkilling the overkill with the amps. The CD might need 5-10w at most in a huge room. The TD15M, depending on placement and room size at most would need 150w and that is overkill unless you plan to sit 20' or farther away.

If you are planning on using iNukes, you might as well skip the MiniDSP and go with iNuke 1000DSPs. No need to mess with cabling, setting gains, etc. Probably a wash on price.

Wouldnt the minidsp be cheaper

2x inuke1000 $400 and then 1x minidsp for $150? as opposed to $150 extra for two inuke 1000dsps (which im not sure if people have actually given good reviews for in terms of interface)

also i plan on using 4 ohm TD15Ms with inuke1000, or would it be in my best interest to go for an 8ohm just in case the impedance likes to drop too much on the 4ohm versions
post #269 of 768
Has anyone ever posted a non-open baffle design using the TD6M? That wt a raal ribbon and a td15m sound like they would make for a great set of mains.
post #270 of 768
It seems alot of folks are asking questions in order to properly gauge what to order, but time is running out...any chance on a possible extension so folks can get their enquiries sorted out.
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