AESpeakers TD Series group buy!!! - Page 17

the fact comes down to it like this a 2 min search on Google would have informed u of his crappy business practice, u didn't take the time to do this and now u are crying foul when it was very public that he delivers whenever he wants.

I suggest you re-read the post a little more carefully, I think you may have missed the point.

+1

cookie,

If you were well informed of AE's poor business practices, why didn't you mentioned it during the lead up to the group buy? Just concerned about your own self interest while ignoring fellow audio enthusiasts? Most of the participants in the GB with experience dealing with AE were mostly silent. Now they come forward big time when before their lips were sealed.

i wasn't well informed till i took the time to look him up on google which lead me to believe nothing he says in concerns to ship dates. but at the same time couldn't find anyone being scammed by him so i assumed at worst i could easily sell the woofer if i didn't want it when he finally delivers.

do u guys buy items blind without knowing who u are dealing with ???

That still begs the question, why didn't you mention it during the run up to the GB? Here you are now with something to say but before you couldn't take the time to inform others not so diligent or just give a mention of customer relation problems and delivery issues. The GB was a communal effort so you think that somebody would've brought the issue up.

I havent even thought about reading all of this thread but I just waited over a year for IST Mach 5 to build my 8 FTW 21s so if its truly just a waiting game then all should be good in due time. Just thought I'd mention how long we waited for some drivers with China problems being part of it too.

do i need to hold your hand before u sleep at night too ? i assume your a grown man who can make educated decisions without the help of others. do u go buy a car with out doing any research ?

rajacat you've been on this forum since 2006. You don't have to be here long to know that John has a history of this. Just go to the forum on AE's website and see all of the issues of long turn around times. I too knew that it would take longer than expected, but assumed the rest of the buyers knew that as well. It has never been a secret.
With that said am I happy about it? No of course not, but I can't drive to Wisconsin and make them myself so I will wait and bitch on occasion.

From a production stand point - Speed, Quality, Price. Pick two.

Right now, everyone is complaining that they can't have all three, but I'm sure if you were willing to pay another $150/200 a driver, that you'd already have them in your hands. Why? More expensive steel would be sourced, more work could be outsourced, and there'd be less for John to do/wait on.

I've owned a pair of TD15h's. Yes I had to wait, No I didn't have to wait as long, but I paid more than you folks in this group buy. Did I get good communication from John? Yes. Prior to me purchasing, he helped me pick tweeters for my build, which had nothing to do with the woofers he would be providing. After purchasing, I just waited till I recieved an email with a tracking number.

So waiting is just what you do. Folks had to wait for AV woofers, just like folks are waiting for the TD woofers.

cookie,

Why don't you learn to write like a grown man instead of a 14 year old writing tweets?

I guess the lesson to be learned from this episode is that you can't trust your fellow audiophiles to give you the unvarnished truth.

I don't think blaming the audio community at large for your disappointment with AE is going to gain you anything.

I think the phrase that comes to mind is "due diligence". It is incumbent upon you to do your own research before making a purchase.

Such research might include reading the disclaimers on his website that devote more real estate to preemptive warnings about delays and how you can't cancel your order.

Previous AE customers have all had to suffer through the endless BS that you are currently experiencing. It's like a running joke. That nobody whispered the punchline into your ear before you jumped onboard isn't my burden to bear.

I've offered advice that the easiest, least painful way of dealing with AE is to just lighten up and roll with the BS. You've chosen to ignore that advice.

Fine.

But do not EVER try to lay the blame on me for your lack of due diligence.

If you read my post, I clearly state that I was aware....that is not the point. The question revolves around three issues: communication, timelines, and inability to provide alternate solutions/compromises. Lets consider your points:

Agreed. Notice communication is not there. OK so we have sacrificed time...what does that mean? What is reasonable?

Exactly, from his past practices one could get a sense of his usual turnaround time. The fact that it is a GB is irrelevant. In fact, the suggestion was that the GB might help matters since he would be able to place a much larger order of steel and help his business in the process. Nothing about it being a GB suggests the timelines should be increased. But lets, for argument sakes suggest you are right. How badly is a business "entitled" to fail in its delivery time. 100% delay?200%delay?300% delay? 400% delay? 500% delay? 1 yr? 2 yrs? You get the point, AE's past practices do not give it a license to fail in its delivery times by dramatically increased proportions.

Are you now suggesting that AE's past poor performance gives AE license to delay shipments far beyond reasonable expectation? A yr perhaps? Again, taking the stand that one just has to wait regardless how much time has expired is very poor argumentation and serves neither AE nor its customers. I would like to know how many people with a business background would actually suggest AE's behaviour in this GB (including communication and customer support) falls anywhere within reason.


This is something he should really consider. His practices will eventually kill his business, and his products are of sufficient quality and value that he should be able to raise the price, thus allowing AE to provide better service and ensure its customer satisfaction.

PS I don't think John is trying to burn anyone. I have known about John from long before AE (during the days at the basslist, I think the business then was called Lambda Acoustics). He always appeared to be a very decent human being, with a love for the hobby and a drivers that performed with the best (if they were not the best). But I'm now concerned that AE's business practices, if unchanged, are going to irreparable harm the business. If AE continues to have problems with its turnaround times, at the very least it needs to dramatically improve its communication.

I am looking for some TD10S Drivers and if you happen to have no more patience to wait for yours, let me know as I'd like to get a pair and will pay you and take over the bill of sale and just wait it out. I'm looking for some w/Apollo upgrade, but not necessary. 4 ohm preferred, too, but again, not necessary.

Will also consider ANY used drivers one may have. They need to be ones with decent QTS like the TD10S.

Thanks all!

actuaaally... you wont take over the sale because john doesnt give a sh** about getting back to the people whose money he took.

I'm sure it's a bookkeeping nightmare to change John Doe's order over to Mike Doe at such-and-such address for everyone who wants to do that. And then the potential headache of having Mike Doe say "Hey, I paid John Doe in full and that I didn't owe AE any money" once they get the bill for the second half of the order from AE.

As I have said before, I understand many of you are frustrated. While I realize you may be waiting on a few woofers, please realize that I am waiting on parts for thousands of woofers. It is not just the group buy woofers that have been held up, but my entire source of revenue. Once money is paid to the vendor, which was done in a timely manner upon the close of the group buy, I am at the mercy of that vendor supplying the parts to me. This specific vendor has always been reliable in the past, meeting lead times and with good QC to the parts. I had never envisioned this type of issue with them. This has not been a good experience, waiting patiently through through numerous QC issues that require reworking of parts again and again. Miscommunication between their sales and purchasing departments, faulty materials, improperly done machining, etc resulted in parts that could not be accepted if the final product was to be built properly. I will not accept parts that sacrifice the final product to be delivered. Because my orders are small compared to the others they deal with, I get no priority in manufacturing or in the rework. All I can do is wait patiently.

Be assured that I am doing everything i can possibly do until those parts arrive. During this time period it is critical that I prioritize only the work that provides income to sustain the business until the parts do arrive. Spending countless hours per day replying to emails that ask for status updates or threaten harm to myself and my family does not provide that needed income to keep the business operational right now. Any new information I have about the group buy order is posted on the thread on my forum immediately upon hearing it myself. Demanding updates when there are none to provide also does not change the situation at all. I just posted an update regarding the shipment from china a few minutes ago. This is the latest information I have to provide that I just received this morning. As I know more specifics of the transit schedule I will update again. I will verify every order via email prior to anything being built to assure everyone gets what they intended. If there are changes in shipping to someone else they can also be verified at that time. Thank you for your patience.

John

Truly unfortunate these parts and processes have to be sourced overseas. If I had purchased through this group buy I would have been pissed, but threatening harm to you and your family is completely inappropriate. Hopefully those responsible for that reprehensible behavior get what is due.

Seriously guys. Threatening John with physical violence isn't cool. And if someone has threatened his family that's really messed up.

If you want to sue. Go nuts. If you want to have a barn brawl wait till people get their drivers then see if he wants to fight you old man style. Otherwise keep the violence outta here.

Matt

+1

For goodness sake, they're audio drivers. There are some reading this thread that need intensive therapy and then a life after that's complete. Please, get the help you need.

Why are you saying "seriously guys", how do you know the person who threatened violence is on AVS?

I understand where John is coming from and understand how bad it can suck depending on suppliers overseas.
Depending on batch runs, you are at the mercy of the supplier, it's as easy as that.
It's frustrating but it's happening to most of the sub makers, they are all in the same boat. The waiting game sucks but it is what it is. Complaining is not going to help as I'm sure it's frustrating for all party's involved.

Maybe it was someone. It sounds like it has been more than one person doing it.. Besides more people read avs than post here. Obviously people are upset enough to threaten physical violence against him.

I'm taking a stand. And instead of trying to question my platform perhaps you should be wondering why people are needing to resort to violence when that is totally and completely unnecessary and wrong. Take a look at this situation. Does this need to devolve into in fighting name calling and violence.

People are upset. I get that. Then publicly post your frustrations. Don't sit and bitch out other members for whatever stupid petty reason or because they were "naive". That just makes the situation worse. And really anyone who is resorting to violence for this is just a stupid man child. Unless there is immediate serious harm coming to you or your family or friends then keep violence off the table. Things will just escalate and the odds aren't good for anyone once that happens. This coming from someone who has been in countless scraps and brawls and fights. And finally stopped doing that **** because having knives and guns pulled on me being jumped by groups of guys because of previous fights just was too much to handle.

Threatening violence against an enemy you don't know is a great way to end up sucking on the barrel of a 12 gauge. Instead of doing stupid **** like that (which btw threatening someone's life is a felony) find better means of dealing with the situation. There is always other options.

End rant. (I know what it's like to wait on these things. I'm waiting on a drivers from someone else have been for a year now)


Matt

I can't think of many circumstances where one is justified threatening another party with physical violence, but this is definitely not one of them. Despite past and present problems, John and AE do have an impeccable record from the perspective of eventually providing their customers with the products they purchased and the quality they expected.

Please Note: if in fact the person(s) who threatened John threatened him with violence, and he or she is reading this, in some regions a threat to commit violence against another person can be construed as a criminal act. It may make you feel better to threaten someone with violence, but I'm not too sure you will feel better if you are charged with a criminal offense. Something to consider in your future communications.

I really feel for you John having been there myself. My only advice is to keep your sanity and do your best to extract yourself from the situation while delivering on what you can.

At the end of the day they are just woofers. Keep that in mind and don't let the situation drive you in the ground.

Good advice Kevin and by all means certainly you took your lumps with build issues towards the end unfortunately.

One thing I've never understood is why are materials not machined here in the states where QC can be monitored better? Dayton, Eminence, Fi seem to do it, how come you, Mark, John etc outsource the bulk of your parts that eventually ended up with quality concerns? If it's price what sort of additional costs are we talking to go local?

I think that we all need to remember that this kind of thing has happened to many small companies, do I have to bring up the Avatar/Adire and TC situations (and these were/are drivers that most agree were top quality). I've always wondered why people are quick to give TC a pass, is it because of the quality of the drivers? Could AE be managed better, there is no easy answer. Are the products of high quality, yes.

I didn't build woofers. I had all of my product assembled overseas so you would have to ask someone like John who has a history of assembling parts. Having seen Wiggins try to assemble everything in-house it didn't make any sense to me. The $$ needed in people, space, and equipment along with the insurance and overhead just don't make sense unless you can sell a LOT of product, many times more than what I thought the market would support for high-end woofers. The bottom line was that I didn't have the money to buy all of those things and I barely scraped by at the poverty level even when things were running well.

You have to understand that this is a totally crazy business. There is zero financial benefit to designing and building audio equipment. There are a few companies that succeed due to the personality of their owner (sales BS) and a few gifted guys who carve out a niche here and there on a limited basis, but if you look at the number of failures vs. success, running an audio business is one of the dumbest business choices you can make.

I do all the final machining here to avoid the issues with an end product being done improperly. I get rough t-yokes and top plates forged in China. They are made significantly larger than necessary and the pole is turned down to within .001" tolerances at my shop and the copper sleeve is applied. The problem is when they not only don't oversize the parts, but actually find somehow to turn them down smaller than my final machined dimensions. Drawings have tolerances listed but are often ignored. At that point they have to be re-forged and all I can do is wait.

To get those same rough pieces forged here in the US would require a minimum $100,000 initial investment and at the same time add $25-30 in cost to every woofer. It is something I have considered but it is far from practical. Making a 2 piece press fit T-yoke out of bar stock is possible but the labor required adds about $50 to every driver and cuts the capacity of how many drivers I can build to about 1/4. This is what I have done in the meantime for some orders, but that $50 loss per driver adds up quickly as well.

Kevin, thanks for all the support. I hope things are going well in whatever new ventures you have taken on now. Somewhere down the road we will have to talk again. If you are ever interested in getting back into this crazy industry on a part time basis I could see some options to work together in some capacity. I definitely agree that this isn't one of the best choices of business to get into. It happens to be one I love though so I keep going.

I have people ask for advice about starting a business all the time. My first advice is usually to go work for someone else, work and 8 hour day, get a pay check and be able to go home. I often think how much easier it would be that way. Secondly, I suggest a business that doesn't require having employees. That is where things get very difficult. My next advise is to not only look at what you may be selling or offering, but what materials you need to provide that product. Speakers are somewhat unique. You can't just go to a local place and pick up parts to build them. There are few vendors out there and most only want to deal with high dollar orders that make them the most money. The more parts you can make in house, the more control you have. If you can come up with a business that doesn't require unique materials that is much better. I could make a good living building cabinets and doing finish carpentry in homes for example. Materials are easy to get and inexpensive with no minimum orders. If you can find a service based business that doesn't require much equipment, that is even better. Doing websites was for a short time something I did prior to going full time with speakers. I could have made a living with that too.

All of that seems like giving up though. I have something to offer that nobody else can. When I can get the parts, I can build good quantity of woofers and make a good living doing something I enjoy. Ever since paying off the shop and designing/building most of the equipment I use, I've been in too deep to just walk away. So I keep pushing. Upon delivery of the group buy woofers and others that are awaiting parts, I will be in the most solid financial situation I have been in. I should finally be in a position to get things moving forward.

John