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My THT build in Piano finish - Page 2

post #31 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

one thing that is known is that they are not tuned.
All vented cabinets are tuned. As to the cabs in the video, they're modified versions of my XF guitar cabs, so the design is neither original nor unique.
post #32 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

All vented cabinets are tuned. As to the cabs in the video, they're modified versions of my XF guitar cabs, so the design is neither original nor unique.

Bill,

Thank you for weighing in .
the guys are your builders, I would not be surprised if the scoop baffle with cross firing drives were inspired by your design.

Are you familiar with details of this project?

judging by the size of the slots, what frequency the cabinets are tuned to? if I understood it correctly, they were swapping drives (with different T/S?) in the same enclosure during the demo. is it an indication that it is not typical bass reflex cabinet?

i am likely out of my depth on all this though
Edited by zheka - 7/1/12 at 9:33am
post #33 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

not tuned? what is the purpose of the big slot ports?
it's not tuned as in bass reflex designs. the tuning frequency, to the extend there is one, must be very low so that there is no unloading -something that Mike Arnopol kept talking about

my guess is that it is an open baffle woofers placed inside of a scoop like structure . there are also some tweeters there that fire directly into that scoop. so what we see as a slot ports is the mouth of what they call "manipulated vortex waveguide".

I am probably very wrong about all this, i do not have the knowledge to judge or even guess intelligently.
that's in part why I wanted to get your attention, to see if this is indeed something unusual.
Edited by zheka - 7/1/12 at 3:48pm
post #34 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

is it an indication that it is not typical bass reflex cabinet?
I don't see anything in the pictures that would indicate that.
post #35 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I don't see anything in the pictures that would indicate that.
aren't the slots too big to be meaningful in a box reflex set up?
post #36 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

aren't the slots too big to be meaningful in a box reflex set up?
Not if ducted.
post #37 of 92
zheka, also keep in mind that a guitar cab is very different from a speaker cab.

the latter is meant to represent the signal uncolored in any way, while the former is a large part of the sound and should be thought of as part of the musical instrument itself.

so even if the cab "sounds good" to a guitar player, it may not make a very good speaker cab at all.
post #38 of 92
all good points,ty
post #39 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

All vented cabinets are tuned. As to the cabs in the video, they're modified versions of my XF guitar cabs, so the design is neither original nor unique.
With all due respect, Bill, these cabinets are not a modification of your XF other than to have cross-fired transducers and that is not a feature unique to your product. They are NOT conventional tuned reflex cabinets either. One can install a full-range transducer in one of our MVW cabinets and have a full range loudspeaker. Conversely a subwoofer transducer can be installed in the same cabinet without modification and function as a subwoofer. To put it simply: The transducer tunes the cabinet; The cabinet does not tune the transducer. This technology is something new. We have been working on it for some time and have invested quite a bit of resource into it. For anyone interested check here: http://bigeloudspeakers.com/faqs.htm
cool.gif
post #40 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Regier View Post

With all due respect, Bill, these cabinets are not a modification of your XF other than to have cross-fired transducers and that is not a feature unique to your product. They are NOT conventional tuned reflex cabinets either. One can install a full-range transducer in one of our MVW cabinets and have a full range loudspeaker. Conversely a subwoofer transducer can be installed in the same cabinet without modification and function as a subwoofer. To put it simply: The transducer tunes the cabinet; The cabinet does not tune the transducer. This technology is something new. We have been working on it for some time and have invested quite a bit of resource into it. For anyone interested check here: http://bigeloudspeakers.com/faqs.htm
cool.gif

Good to see you chime in, Steve
post #41 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Regier View Post

With all due respect, Bill, these cabinets are not a modification of your XF other than to have cross-fired transducers and that is not a feature unique to your product. They are NOT conventional tuned reflex cabinets either. One can install a full-range transducer in one of our MVW cabinets and have a full range loudspeaker. Conversely a subwoofer transducer can be installed in the same cabinet without modification and function as a subwoofer. To put it simply: The transducer tunes the cabinet; The cabinet does not tune the transducer. This technology is something new. We have been working on it for some time and have invested quite a bit of resource into it. For anyone interested check here: http://bigeloudspeakers.com/faqs.htm
cool.gif
What the technology is remains to be seen. I haven't seen any data or artwork on it. And while I've seen it said that the details are being withheld pending a patent, there's no reason to do so. One has a full year between first revealing the art and actually filing for a patent, and patent protection is retroactive. Moreover, in order to apply for a patent the data supporting the claims must be included in the filing. That means full response, polar and impedance charts.
post #42 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

What the technology is remains to be seen. I haven't seen any data or artwork on it. And while I've seen it said that the details are being withheld pending a patent, there's no reason to do so. One has a full year between first revealing the art and actually filing for a patent, and patent protection is retroactive. Moreover, in order to apply for a patent the data supporting the claims must be included in the filing. That means full response, polar and impedance charts.



This reminds me of a fellow on here whom claimed to have mastered the 'perfect' DIY screen paint solutions, but can't reveal any data/measurements due to 'patent pending'.
post #43 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

What the technology is remains to be seen. I haven't seen any data or artwork on it. And while I've seen it said that the details are being withheld pending a patent, there's no reason to do so. One has a full year between first revealing the art and actually filing for a patent, and patent protection is retroactive. Moreover, in order to apply for a patent the data supporting the claims must be included in the filing. That means full response, polar and impedance charts.
Bill, let's not do this. I have been nothing but respectful to you. I have a patent attorney already who's counsel differs from yours. I understand that there are many who are itching too see what we are doing. Furthermore, I expect a healthy dose of skepticism. Please understand that I have invested my entire life savings into this project and consequently I do not wish to have it stolen. That said, full public disclosure will occur once our utility patent is approved. I can say that some respected people in the industry who have seen and experienced our technology (on an NDA) backup our claims.
post #44 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Regier View Post

Bill, let's not do this. I have been nothing but respectful to you. I have a patent attorney already who's counsel differs from yours. I understand that there are many who are itching too see what we are doing. Furthermore, I expect a healthy dose of skepticism. Please understand that I have invested my entire life savings into this project and consequently I do not wish to have it stolen. That said, full public disclosure will occur once our utility patent is approved. I can say that some respected people in the industry who have seen and experienced our technology (on an NDA) backup our claims.
I understand your not wanting to reveal anything for fear of IP theft, but full disclosure will take place with the first cab you sell to someone who decides to take full measurements and then open the cab up to see what's inside. As for someone else using the technology, no Western manufacturer will try to, based on the time honored concept of NIH: Not Invented Here. OTOH no Asian manufacturer will be the least bit deterred by patent protection.

Having been involved in the patent process for designs that I've done for manufacturers the best protection is to get it out into the public eye, so that your claim to having original art is established. You've nothing to lose, as your rights went into effect on the day you filed. As for waiting for the patent to be granted, assuming that it is, that usually takes about four years. If the Chinese decide to reverse engineer it they'd have it to market in about four months.

IMO you shouldn't have said anything about the design until after you had gotten all your ducks in a row and had the finished products ready to ship, and all potential questions ready to be answered.
post #45 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

This reminds me of a fellow on here whom claimed to have mastered the 'perfect' DIY screen paint solutions, but can't reveal any data/measurements due to 'patent pending'.

except that there are some respectable guys in the industry who were given details about the MVW and found the claims credible.
post #46 of 92
Marketing is fun, right? Fairy tales for adults.

I can't read any of the links provided because they have been moved or deleted. What's up with that?

If anyone is claiming this enclosure is not tuned they have a fundamental lack of understanding about how the physics of audio works. All enclosures, in fact any boundary that is at least semi solid and near (within 1/4 wavelength) a raw driver creates impedance peaks. Those peaks will be there no matter what driver you decide to stick in the box. There is nothing new under the sun and there is nothing in these enclosures that can't be simulated accurately in Akabak. There is no such thing as an untuned enclosure.
Quote:
except that there are some respectable guys in the industry who were given details about the MVW and found the claims credible.

I don't know what claims were made and I don't know which respectable guys thought these claims were credible. Can you point to a link (that still exists) where I can see these claims and a list of respectable guys who think this is credible? The only link that's still valid is the video of a guy playing bass guitar so quietly his speaking voice is louder than the bass cab, and he's a business partner so nothing he says is of much objective value.

I don't expect any problems in obtaining a patent even if the idea has no value (I've seen a patent describing how to swing on a swing), so this will be fun(ny) when the details finally come out.
Edited by diy speaker guy - 11/30/12 at 7:41pm
post #47 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post

Can you point to a link (that still exists) where I can see these claims and a list of respectable guys who think this is credible?

Duke LeJeune of Audiokinesis, Leland Crooks of SpeakerHardware.com and Michael Arnopol, the guy in the video, were given the tech details under NDA.

that talkbass forum thread was resurrected here

I totally understand your skepticism.

I had a chance to listen to the HT version



i have no idea what the cabinets are, but bass-reflex or folded horn they are not.
post #48 of 92
I'm interested in whatever you guys were smoking when you wrote all that. I'm sure your next product will be either cold fusion or room temperature super-conduction. ROTFLMAO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Regier View Post

With all due respect, Bill, these cabinets are not a modification of your XF other than to have cross-fired transducers and that is not a feature unique to your product. They are NOT conventional tuned reflex cabinets either. One can install a full-range transducer in one of our MVW cabinets and have a full range loudspeaker. Conversely a subwoofer transducer can be installed in the same cabinet without modification and function as a subwoofer. To put it simply: The transducer tunes the cabinet; The cabinet does not tune the transducer. This technology is something new. We have been working on it for some time and have invested quite a bit of resource into it. For anyone interested check here: http://bigeloudspeakers.com/faqs.htm
cool.gif
post #49 of 92
This is another example of how finishing an enclosure with a piano black look always ends up being a compromise. You either 'tolerate' the orange peel look or you need serious amounts of technique and time to make it look proper. I learned the hard way and I won't do piano black again. Now if PassingInterest was going to finish it for me that's another story! I would recommend that nobody try a piano finish, especially if they don't have experience doing it....that is, unless you're willing to settle for orange peel. It's understandable that any builder (such as the one who built this sub) has time/money constraints and simply can't finish it properly. Looks great with all things considered.
post #50 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielson99 View Post

This is another example of how finishing an enclosure with a piano black look always ends up being a compromise. You either 'tolerate' the orange peel look or you need serious amounts of technique and time to make it look proper.
Getting a piano finish with no orange peel isn't that difficult nor that time consuming, other than the drying time for the necessary number of coats required. But I wouldn't want to do all the sanding and rubbing out by hand.
post #51 of 92
I've been painting cars for 14 years now, with the right tools, a piano black finish is not hard at all. The prep work is 80% of the battle. Getting things straight and ready for paint is the hardest part of any build. A d/a sander with some 1500 and 3000 sandpaper and a electric polisher can have the job cut and polished in a few hours with minimal effort. I have to do this to pretty much every vehicle I paint as they are mostly high end vehicles and hotrods. It has to be mirror smooth and flawless (most of the time lol) Also a cheap spray gun will do a MUCH nicer job that any rattle can. It's a $50 investment thats worth every penny.
post #52 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

Duke LeJeune of Audiokinesis, Leland Crooks of SpeakerHardware.com and Michael Arnopol, the guy in the video, were given the tech details under NDA.
that talkbass forum thread was resurrected here
I totally understand your skepticism.
I had a chance to listen to the HT version

i have no idea what the cabinets are, but bass-reflex or folded horn they are not.

Mike Arnopol is a business partner, his picture is even on the website. Is that a trustworthy source?

The other two you mentioned signed an NDA (by your own admission), there's absolutely no reason for anyone to ever do that unless they are getting paid as well. In fact there are several good reasons NOT to sign an NDA if there's nothing in it for the signer. I'm sure they didn't sign an NDA just so they could find out about this totally awesome, brand new, never seen before, world changing technology. It seems to me that these guys are all business partners or paid consultants. (But I admit I know nothing of the details except what you've stated here.)

Can you list a single proponent of this radical new technology that isn't getting paid?
post #53 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post

Mike Arnopol is a business partner, his picture is even on the website. Is that a trustworthy source?
The other two you mentioned signed an NDA (by your own admission), there's absolutely no reason for anyone to ever do that unless they are getting paid as well. In fact there are several good reasons NOT to sign an NDA if there's nothing in it for the signer. I'm sure they didn't sign an NDA just so they could find out about this totally awesome, brand new, never seen before, world changing technology. It seems to me that these guys are all business partners or paid consultants. (But I admit I know nothing of the details except what you've stated here.)
Can you list a single proponent of this radical new technology that isn't getting paid?

All three have partnered with BigE. All three initially were very skeptical and relactant to even audition the cabs. That video of Mike is his first exposure to the toys.

There is no reason you should trust any of them and , frankly, I do not care if you do or do not.
I am not here to convince anybody, especially in something I do not understand.

The bass cabs are being produced and sold already. The reviews I read were pretty positive.
Edited by zheka - 12/1/12 at 11:38am
post #54 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

All three have partnered with BigE. All three initially were very skeptical and relactant to even audition the cabs. That video of Mike is his first exposure to the toys.
There is no reason you should trust any of them and , frankly, I do not care if you do or do not.
I am not here to convince anybody, especially in something I do not understand.
The bass cabs are being produced and sold already. The reviews I read were pretty positive.


End of story.
post #55 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

That video of Mike is his first exposure to the toys.

Were you there or is that what you were told? It looks like a promotional video to me, in fact the comments below the video say as much.

Positive reviews don't mean anything except that the cab is not a total piece of junk. This is not unexpected since they have access to BFM plans, so it would be pretty sad if there bass cab didn't perform to at least regular standards.

Look at this another way. If these guys are sitting on a goldmine of new technology, why on earth are they wasting their time on building BFM designs for people? There can't be much money in that, and there would be no need, assuming they can offer products that outperform BFM designs.

None of this makes any sense at all. It's marketing, and since they clearly have people interested, it looks like they are doing a good job of it.
post #56 of 92
leaving all the credibility questions aside, just looking at this picture alone, does it seem like a typical line array?

post #57 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

End of story.

Leland also sells flatpacks for BFMs cabs. Does it make Bill a liar?
post #58 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

leaving all the credibility questions aside, just looking at this picture alone, does it seem like a typical line array?

Typical line arrays are not cross fired, have much tighter ctc driver positioning, are much taller (for the frequencies of interest), use many more drivers, don't use 2 rows of drivers side by side and are usually not slot ported through the sides. So no, it doesn't look like a typical line array, typical line arrays are usually designed better. (The slot port and cross firing are not necessarily bad but the distant ctc driver spacing, dual lines of drivers side by side and far too short line mean this does not fit the description of line array at all.)
post #59 of 92
If there is anything these guys suck at it would be marketing. Remember, the crowd they are tending to is not easily impressed by phrases like "near field even horizon". If anything it scares them away as the BS meters run off the scale. This thread is a perfect example why their marketing strategy may backfire.
post #60 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post

Typical line arrays are not cross fired, have much tighter ctc driver positioning, are much taller (for the frequencies of interest), use many more drivers, don't use 2 rows of drivers side by side and are usually not slot ported through the sides. So no, it doesn't look like a typical line array, typical line arrays are usually designed better. (The slot port and cross firing are not necessarily bad but the distant ctc driver spacing, dual lines of drivers side by side and far too short line mean this does not fit the description of line array at all.)

If you had to guess, what's the tuning frequency for the cab ? Going by memory the box is approx 10" deep, these are 3" drivers
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