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What we have been waiting for? TD10 3D blu ray without conversion - Page 2

post #31 of 152
Thread Starter 
You have to have installed the blu ray plugin as part of the PMB installation (this has nothing to do with the update). You cannot do that unless the computer detects you have a bluray burner.

If you have a burner, and the plug-in is installed, and you upgraded to 5.8 then you will get the new options.

As far as I can tell only the current Sx80 series can be upgraded to play the bluray disks with 108060i MVC.
post #32 of 152
This is the other plug in ...

http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/...d_addonen.html


my bluray burner is is my computer so i imagin thats ok right
post #33 of 152
Thread Starter 
It should, but I am not sure it will work with 5.8. You might after installing the bluray add-in have to update to 5.8 again. But you will know (before ing that) if you get, after installing the add-in, the new menu choice for 3D for burning a blu ray.

Let us know.
post #34 of 152
sure will do .I have the cam i have to hook up at home.Ill do that later and let ya guys know whats up.So there are really 2 updates to do the pmb and the bluray software deal.Wonder why my sony bluray player wont get a firmware update to 2.0 thats just nuts.
post #35 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

You have to have installed the blu ray plugin as part of the PMB installation (this has nothing to do with the update). You cannot do that unless the computer detects you have a bluray burner.

If you have a burner, and the plug-in is installed, and you upgraded to 5.8 then you will get the new options.

As far as I can tell only the current Sx80 series can be upgraded to play the bluray disks with 108060i MVC.

I burned three 3D Bluray disks last night using 5.8 and the Blu Ray plugin. I updated my PS3 software version a few minutes ago and hoped that since we are talking Sony to Sony, the PS3 would recognize the disk as 3D. No joy.

Perhaps Sony has not yet updated the PS3 software to the new specs. I played the disks on my computer using the latest version of Power DVD and once again the disks were not recognized as 3D.

We are on the cutting edge of new technology and just have to be patient.

From what I read on the Sony website, these are 3D Blu Ray disks despite what Wofgang keeps saying. We just need the hardware to play them in 3D!
post #36 of 152
Thread Starter 
The blu ray plug-in is not an update. It was an option provided on the original PMB disk that came with the camera. But you always had to install it separately.
post #37 of 152
HERE IS the firmware update for my e570.I guess im outa luck.


■Adds the ability to play 3D content using BRAVIA® Internet Video and the Qriocity™ IPTV service
Note: The availability of services in each country may vary
■Adds support for the 3D Experience content using BRAVIA Internet Video
Note: The availability of services in each country may vary
■Improves YouTube® connectivity
■Adds the ability to play 1080/60p video files produced by Sony® cameras
■Improves BD-ROM playability
■Improves HDMI® connectivity
■Resolves an uncommon issue where the Blu-ray
post #38 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

The blu ray plug-in is not an update. It was an option provided on the original PMB disk that came with the camera. But you always had to install it separately.


i thought i only got one disk with my camcorder.ill have to check that.
post #39 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by icerat4 View Post

i thought i only got one disk with my camcorder.ill have to check that.

There is only one PMB disk in the TD10 box.
post #40 of 152
is there a list of these avchd 2.0 bluray players available today somewheres looks like i gota buy a new bluray player or hope ps3 comes out with an update to that,
post #41 of 152
Ok guys i've got a problem here. I got my Sony BDP-S480 player today, updated fine with latest f/w to allow AVCHD 2.0, I burned the disc correctly within my updated PMB, now the Sony recognises and plays the disc just fine in 3d, BUT its playing it in 720P50 instead of 1080i50, I can turn 3d off and it plays as expected in 1080i50 in 2d but upon playing 3d no matter what option I choose its always 720P50m I use a UK spec TD10 hence P50.

Anyway, is this correct? I cant imagine the player downsizing the image on the fly, maybe its how AVCHD 2.0 works? I suppose the good thing is that it doesnt take forever and a day to make a disc now, just a few mins. I'd love to get an answer to this though.
post #42 of 152
No, there is no downscaling - for sure not. What you have on the disc is a BDAV file structure. There is a directory BDAV, inside that is again a directory STREAM - and here you have your original 1080 50i MKV files. Unchanged to what came from your TD10.

If you see 720 50p, either the Sony 480 must be adjusted, or your HDTV.
post #43 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Videoguy68 View Post

There is only one PMB disk in the TD10 box.



Humm i didnt see the bluray software check or uncheck .If thats the only disk then why do i have to download this bluray software why wasnt it part of the pmb deal.
post #44 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

No, there is no downscaling - for sure not. What you have on the disc is a BDAV file structure. There is a directory BDAV, inside that is again a directory STREAM - and here you have your original 1080 50i MKV files. Unchanged to what came from your TD10.

If you see 720 50p, either the Sony 480 must be adjusted, or your HDTV.

I think the Sony must be converting it to 720, it wont be the tv as it will only output what is given to it, and it appears the Sony deck is only doing 720p for AVCHD 2.0 3D, other 3d blu's (Avatar etc) are fine and play at 1080p24.

Its such a let down, I feel very disappointed, its actually worse than my Vegas encoded disc, motion is nowhere near as good, in fact it looks like one of the disc I tested in Vegas at 1080p24 - bloody awful, motion is so juddery.

Sony - why oh why? this player and the update = pointless
post #45 of 152
plus the other big annoyance with this deck, playing the PMB created disc will result in a slight pause between clips and every change in clips brings up the status bar on the display and I cant get rid of it.
post #46 of 152
My couple of hours messing has proved one thing, Sony have messed up hugely with this AVCHD 2.0 update, I don't know if its like this because of the update of if the player is not up to the job, but its definately not good, nowhere near in fact. Its actually made me appreciate how good Vegas is, comparing the 2 identical discs, one with Vegas @ 720p50 and the other with PMB, the Vegas encode is much much smoother and also appears to have more depth to the image.

I'm sure its all down to either the Sony update of the hardware istelf, and it doesnt bode well for other players like the 580 etc, or maybe even the PS3 when the update comes for that, why did Sony have to cripple it by only allowing 720?? crazy
post #47 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by emporer View Post

I think the Sony must be converting it to 720

I do not know what the Sony Blu Ray player is doing here - BUT what I know for sure is that you have 1080 50i files on the BD-R/RE. That can be proved quite simple - I took the file and imported it back into Vegas 11, and checked the file properties.

But if you are right and the player delivers only 720 50p for the AVCHD 2.0 BD-R, then this is a significant limitation, without a clear technical reason.
post #48 of 152
Thread Starter 
This is usually what happens at the cutting edge.

However, as was said, there is no way the 3D bluray disc made with PMB has converted the video to 720p. Something else in going on at the TV and/or player end.

Please don't, as many do, start immediately blaming the manufacturers before trying some things to find out more. Maybe it will work, maybe in won't.

One thing is for sure, documentaion is skimpy. The reson this is worth working on is that however much you like Vegas it is downgrading the quality of the 3D TD10 videos by transcoding. If we can figure out what is going on, and hear from more users than one, maybe we can get what we want - full resolution not re-rendered 3D.

I will try this out too. I have the TD10, the upgraded S580, and the new PMB.
post #49 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by icerat4 View Post

Humm i didnt see the bluray software check or uncheck .If thats the only disk then why do i have to download this bluray software why wasnt it part of the pmb deal.

Apparently, the PMB software ships with the option of burning either a standard definition or high definition video on a standard disk. The blu ray plug in upgrades it and the new blu ray plugin includes 3D.
post #50 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Videoguy68 View Post

Apparently, the PMB software ships with the option of burning either a standard definition or high definition video on a standard disk. The blu ray plug in upgrades it and the new blu ray plugin includes 3D.


i will see how this works out when i get home and let ya all know.Thanks man
post #51 of 152
Thread Starter 
"plus the other big annoyance with this deck, playing the PMB created disc will result in a slight pause between clips and every change in clips brings up the status bar on the display and I cant get rid of it."

If this is not some glitch, there is a fix: in PMB you can just merge all the clips (in any order) into one file. Since there is no conversion, this happens almost instantly. Then you have one 3D 108060i MVC file, and there can't be pauses.

But there should not be pauses between clips anyway - just like any AVCHD-compliant file system. So, this is curious.
post #52 of 152
This is welcome news. It looks like there are some issues for those trying it out and looking forward to hearing how they get resolved. I too am curious if there will be firmware upgrades for any of the existing Panasonic blu-ray 3D players which will make them compliant?
post #53 of 152
I think there a setting where you can tell the software that you do not want to have pauses - seems to be that the software meges the files if you enable that.

Question: has somebody seen now that the 3D full 1080 50i/60i works at the HDTV?
post #54 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

This is usually what happens at the cutting edge.

However, as was said, there is no way the 3D bluray disc made with PMB has converted the video to 720p. Something else in going on at the TV and/or player end.

Please don't, as many do, start immediately blaming the manufacturers before trying some things to find out more. Maybe it will work, maybe in won't.

One thing is for sure, documentaion is skimpy. The reson this is worth working on is that however much you like Vegas it is downgrading the quality of the 3D TD10 videos by transcoding. If we can figure out what is going on, and hear from more users than one, maybe we can get what we want - full resolution not re-rendered 3D.

I will try this out too. I have the TD10, the upgraded S580, and the new PMB.

I'll be most interested to hear your results, the 580 is almost the same as the 480 bar a few little things so it will be interesting to see how you get on, I know that PMB literally just burns the files so they should play at 1080i but its just not happening, its definately the 480 thats downsizing it on the fly to 720p, yet all other formats 2d or 3d are played at what they should be.

Also with the pauses between clips, I couldnt find any way to merge all the files to one, it just wont have it.
post #55 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by emporer View Post

I'll be most interested to hear your results, the 580 is almost the same as the 480 bar a few little things so it will be interesting to see how you get on, I know that PMB literally just burns the files so they should play at 1080i but its just not happening, its definately the 480 thats downsizing it on the fly to 720p, yet all other formats 2d or 3d are played at what they should be.

Also with the pauses between clips, I couldnt find any way to merge all the files to one, it just wont have it.

There are noticeable pauses between the clips and no apparent way to merge the clips as one. The only option I saw when selecting "burn Blu Ray" was to choose between Hi Def or 3D, nothing else.

Once that selection was made, PMB began the burn procress.
post #56 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Videoguy68 View Post

There are noticeable pauses between the clips and no apparent way to merge the clips as one. The only option I saw when selecting "burn Blu Ray" was to choose between Hi Def or 3D, nothing else.

Once that selection was made, PMB began the burn procress.

Thats what I got too, bloody annoying too as every clip change when playing the disc results in the status bar popping up on the screen like its playing a new clip, this bar is huge on the Sony 480 and lasts for about 5 secs. More worryingly though is the 720p issue, why is the player only playing the clips at 720p when it should be 1080i as per what the cam recorded in the first place.

What player are you using?
post #57 of 152
Thread Starter 
The main problems can be fixed, and just require knowledge about your blu ray player and PMB:

1. The popping up of file info: this is just an option in the Sony blu-ray player you can turn off. In the video settings of the bluray player, there is an option to show info when the audio changes (!). Turn it off. The default is on. That gets rid of the big black bars that appear at the beginning of every clip.

2. The pauses between clips: I have not found a setting on the bluray player to play clips continuously, so for now there is a fix in PMB - combining the files:
First select the files you want to combine within PMB (cntrl-click). You then choose 'Manipulate', 'Edit', 'Combine Videos' and all of those files appear in a box.
You can re-order the files any way you like, and even deselect in the box. Then just click 'Combine.'
You get a new 3D MVC file that has no pauses and is not transcoded (still 108060i MVC).The combining takes seconds.

Now burn that file to blu ray (selecting the 3D bluray option): ['Manipulate', 'Create Discs', 'Create Blu ray Discs', 3D Discs.

Now you will have a 3D blu ray that will play with no popups and continuously.

I do not know why the info says 720p on the HDTV. So still more to learn.
post #58 of 152
Mark- after reading the official claim by Sony, I don't believe you have mistated what this will do Others probably have read beyond your excitement and assumed more than you claimed.

You said-
Quote:
Sony has upgraded its PMB software (free with TD10) to 5.8 so it is compatible with AVCHD 2.0 (including 3D). Here is what the new version does:

"3D and 60p/50p videos can be burned on a Blu-ray disc without being converted."

For those who don't know, or sneer at PMB, here is what it does:

It seamlessly stitches 3D long shots (more than 2GB) that were split into files. No other software does this.

It allows the trimming and cutting and splitting of 3D files without conversion or loss of 3D (smart render).

It merges 3D clips, including the edited ones, into one 3D video without conversion.

And now it makes a 3D bluray without conversion. The new AVCHD 3D spec includes 108060i, in addition to 72060p and 108024p, and now we can make blurays that will play in regular (updated) bluray players without the awful 24p curse or downrezzing.

I reference specifically that I put in Bold--



All Sony claims is that:

Quote:
Functions to be added / improved

3D and 60p/50p videos can be burned on a Blu-ray disc without being converted.
(Video files shot with Cyber-shot and  cameras are also supported.)
The image quality of a DVD disc created from progressive videos will be improved.
The symptom where images already imported are imported again if the images shot with the continuous shooting function are included will be fixed.


When I read your post I too thought like others that TD10 clips could be butt edited together with no loss of quality and play on a Blu Ray disk seamlessly stitched together. After reading what Sony said they improved and the added ability to burn clips to a BluRay without any conversion. When I read that- I would assume it only is a feature that permits burning individual clips to a bluray without conversion as a batch process. No butt editing, no re-encoding, nothing seamless. In my way of thinking, that would constitute editing, which the PMB does not do.

We should all end this wild goose chase and accept that Sony is claiming this is just a batch clip burning feature. That's all. It is no replacement for Vegas editing.


Digging a little deeper- your description is not technically incorrect because everything you said it does as far as I have seen. What others assumed is when reading all your claims, that they could seamlessly edit together different clip files for a butt edited production. Others should note that when Mark claimed it can seamlessly stitch together those longer than 2Gb files on long run time clips to a single clip using PMB, he doesn't mean you can freely, seamlessly stitch together a bunch of small short run MTS files as you wish. That is the job of Vegas editing package and this update doesn't do that. I hope this explains the difference. PMB automatically stitches the very long and large (MTS) files so that a particular video clip shot in one session will be combined seamlessly the way you originally shot it. And, BTW, PMB has always done this. Those who don't follow proper procedure and extract the MTS files from the TD10 are those who run into the 2GB chopped up clips with mismatched audio. We all have warned them to use PMB. Nothing wrong with what Mark posted, just that some read into it more than I believe he intended.

Note- all the above is just my opinion but I hate to see frustration and wild goose chasing when it was never intended, just a misunderstanding.
post #59 of 152
Quote:
You then choose 'Manipulate', 'Edit', 'Combine Videos' and all of those files appear in a box.
You can re-order the files any way you like, and even deselect in the box. Then just click 'Combine.'
You get a new 3D MVC file that has no pauses and is not transcoded (still 108060i MVC).The combining takes seconds.

Now burn that file to blu ray (selecting the 3D bluray option): ['Manipulate', 'Create Discs', 'Create Blu ray Discs', 3D Discs.

Now you will have a 3D blu ray that will play with no popups and continuously.

OK then I stand partially corrected. If you can do this then the new PMB has departed from a simple batch burn process to a minimal butt editor. Nice!

icerat- take note could be exactly what you wanted until a simpler hardware device is made.
post #60 of 152
Thread Starter 
"Others should note that when Mark claimed it can seamlessly stitch together those longer than 2Gb files on long run time clips to a single clip using PMB, he doesn't mean you can freely, seamlessly stitch together a bunch of small short run MTS files as you wish."

Don, Thanks for the defense, but: I did mean exactly what I said and you can seamlessly stitch together the small clips from the TD10 and make one big clip (butt edit (and trim)) in any order of clips you want.

See my post just above yours (which you probably missed because it came on just as yours did).

To be very clear, here is what you can do in PMB:

1. You can edit and trim individual clips, losslessly (except at cuts of course).

2. You can combine losslessly any set of small or big clips from the camera in any order, including the edited clips, and get one big file. No conversion, no loss at all. No gaps or glitches between combined clips; smooth as silk.

3. You can burn that combined clip onto a blu ray losslessly. And that blu ray will play in new Sony players.

This is why I got so excited about PMB, and was royally pissed off at the initial ignorant nit-picking (not Don and not those people actually trying the combo out without any documentation).

All of the problems arise from the fact (apart from people being impatient) that there is simply inadequate documentation. One basically has to muck around with the player and the software to figure out what it can do and not do, help file or no help file. The PMB 5.8 help file does not even mention 3D options for blu ray.

It's actually worse - the info Sony gives with the camera on the capabilities of PMB is missing, so most of us (including me initially) just throw the PMB disc aside. Turns out to be a unique and capable 3D editor.
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