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Chinadog's Tennessee Theater! - Page 12

post #331 of 683
7/3/12 at 6:31pm
Thread Starter 
Here's some craziness for you. I think I'm punchy.

Thinking through the coffered ceiling lighting. Each section will be lit up by rope lighting pr LED strips. I know this has been solved before. I only have two switches to to coffered lights. I was thinking that I could drill a hole through each section to run the LED rope light from one section to the other, assuming there is no issue doing so. Assuming you can run the light through the sections, the challenge is rope light comes in 150 ft rolls, so I'll need to do the two circuits sections efficiently. I did a little white boarding at work and came up with two ways. The first would work length wise. I have not calculated the second.

First you start with the coffered ceiling. Ignore the switch locations.
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The red line is on continuous rope light. Ignore the breaks.
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The blue line does the other sides, Again, ignore the breaks.
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Combined, they look like this:
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The other option is to do half with one and half with the other:
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Again, not sure either option is code compliant.

The bottom option actually makes more sense if you want to turn one half of the room on and not the other. Not sure I'd do that, but it's an option. The first seems to have less overlap. I'm sure there may be other options and maybe some efficient.

Another option (would have to check code compliance) would be to have six outlets tied to one switch and have each coffer have it's own section of rope light plugged into the outlet (hidden by crown). Times two for the other side.

Any comments?

Bud
Edited by chinadog - 7/3/12 at 7:05pm
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post #332 of 683
7/3/12 at 7:06pm
I would highly recommend the RGB LED strip lights. They are really cool as they can change colors, as well as flash and fade.

The strips can but cut at every third LED (about every 4 inches or so). Then you can solder a length of wire between different sections. Since they are low voltage, I don't see why you couldn't just run a length of wire in between the different coffers to connect all of the strips.

You'd have to do a little planning and watch for voltage drops over a long distance. Also, depending on what length of the strips you need, you might need to run them off a few different transformers. Maybe one half on one and the other on another? That's not really my area of expertise so I'll stop there and hope that someone else can chime in to help you figure that out if you need it.
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post #333 of 683
7/3/12 at 7:11pm
Thread Starter 
aaustin, thanks for the post.

I knew LED strip lighting was an option versus rope light, just haven't really had a chance to research what was out there. Do you have any links to the RGB lights?

Bud
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post #334 of 683
7/3/12 at 7:40pm
The specific strips that I bought were these.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261005339508&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:3160

Each roll is 5 meters (16.4 feet) in length.

They plug into the controller and are controlled by the remote.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160788477117&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:3160#ht_3637wt_1185

I use this transformer to power them (though it was only $10 when I bought it so I don't know what happened there rolleyes.gif).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280869637229&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:3160#ht_3214wt_1185

I'm sure that you can find one for less though.

The controller that I linked to is nice because it has five outputs for five different strands. What I can picture working in your situation would be to run a length of low voltage wire to each section of the ceiling from the controller. I'd get two of the controller units and chain the four smallest ceiling sections into two separate loads of two sections each. So the four corners would turn into two sections with two corners each. That way you have ten sections total and would only need two controller units. Each controller unit would be powered by a separate transformer. All you'd have to do is run the correct length of lights around each section of the ceiling and connect it to the low voltage wires that you ran earlier that go back to the controller units. You'd need a line of sight to the two controllers to use the remote but if you're going to be using an ir repeater system you could house them and the transformers in your equipment closet and tie it into that.

Like I said, I'm no expert on this, but it seems like that would be a good solution in your situation.
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post #335 of 683
7/4/12 at 4:15am
+1 to aaustin's post on the LED lights, controller and remote. It appears as though the ebay seller misentered the auction starting price of $99.99 vs. $9.99 for the transformer. If you go to the sold history, all sold for $9.99, fyi.

I would ask what type of control system are you using / do you plan to use? There is obviously a big difference between buying traditional rope lighting and connecting it up to a Grafik Eye zone (or two) and going the route of RGB LEDs with its separate controls, power supplies, installation techniques, etc. If you have a competent control system then you can obviously learn the IR codes from the credit card remote and go to town. But if you want more control, zoning or even an "app", there are a few other options to look at, although at a significantly higher price point. Here are two systems with more control. One is by iGlo, which at $299 is overpriced in my opinion, but really no way to get around it given their wireless interface and iphone, ipad and android apps. You could of course buy additional 5M LEDs off the open market instead of through iGlo at $199 a pop. The Ferrari of these systems is by Stewart Filmscreen, but as you can imagine the pricing starts by taking the Gross National Product of a small European country and multiplying by a factor of 6. Here's a couple of links:

http://www.igloledset.com/buy/

http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/residential/products/special_applications/LED/LED_accent_lighting_system_residential.pdf (You may recognize Dennis Erskine's handywork with this system at the top of page 2 of this pdf)


As a footnote, you don't have to use the fancy premade wires to jumper between the LED strips - you can use standard Cat5 to make the jump between segments, provided you are handy with a soldering iron to connect to the terminals at either end.
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post #336 of 683
7/4/12 at 4:51am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the posts and inputs guys.

Dennis called for the Crestron CLS-C6RF for lighting control, with two zones for the coffer lights. My biggest concern issue withe the LED strips is dealing with and hiding transformers or controllers? Even if I could chain the strips together for some of the coffers, I would still need at least a transformer (and maybe a controller) for each chain?

Maybe I should buy one just to play with.

Bud
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post #337 of 683
7/4/12 at 4:53am
I would have the entire ceiling off of 1 switch, either on, or off. I don't like the idea of half on, half off. Doesn't seem right with a coffer. But thats just my opinion. Good to see some progress! Keep it up!
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post #338 of 683
7/4/12 at 5:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinadog View Post

Thanks for the posts and inputs guys.
Dennis called for the Crestron CLS-C6RF for lighting control, with two zones for the coffer lights. My biggest concern issue withe the LED strips is dealing with and hiding transformers or controllers? Even if I could chain the strips together for some of the coffers, I would still need at least a transformer (and maybe a controller) for each chain?
Maybe I should buy one just to play with.
Bud

That Crestron piece looks a lot like their answer to Lutron's Grafik Eye and will certainly control on/off, dimming and offer full control with no problem....but not for RGB LEDs if you want the "wow" factor of the color changing lights - for that you need a completely different setup as described above. The most difficult thing about the RGB LEDs to me is the control. But the cost of control beyond the credit card remote goes up exponentially at this point in time as the market is not fully developed. The Stewart Filmscreen E-Node control for their system is close to $2,000 for the unit itself. Then all the other accessory pieces are in the $300 to $500 range EACH. So you could really have $5000 into RGD LED lighting with the Stewart system before you know it.

Given that the system quoted above by aaustin is IR-based, you would have no problem flashing each of the RGB LED controllers (located in the equipment room I would assume) with an IR emitter for control, essentially putting all 44 features of the credit-card sized remote onto your URC, Logitech, or whatever you are using.

As for the transformers, there is a bit of relatively simple engineering to designing the system. I will start by saying you would home-run a Cat5 lead to each LED that needs its own power transformer, allowing you to keep all the power in the equipment room. From there you would just have to take into account the voltage loss for the run over the cat5 (ohms of resistance) and the length of the LED strip you wish to drive to determine the amperage power supply you will need. Look at it this way - even if you did one power supply per coffer in your ceiling, you would be looking at $120 (12 x $10 each) to power all the strip lights in your ceiling easily with no issues. Coordinating the signal control is easily done a couple of different ways, but we can cross that bridge if/when you come to it.

I would recommend that you get a complete RGB LED kit to experiment with like the one here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5M-LED-Strips-Kits-SMD-5050-RGB-30LEDs-M-Flexible-Car-Strips-IP65-Waterproof-/220973183015?pt=US_Car_Lighting&hash=item3373073027#ht_1868wt_1163
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post #339 of 683
7/4/12 at 5:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by advertguy2 View Post

I would have the entire ceiling off of 1 switch, either on, or off. I don't like the idea of half on, half off. Doesn't seem right with a coffer. But thats just my opinion. Good to see some progress! Keep it up!

I'd agree - more than likely I would never have half off, but maybe it's a power consumption thing, like putting two many cans on one switch.

Bud
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post #340 of 683
7/4/12 at 5:10am
Thread Starter 
I just went and bought some of the LED stuff on ebay to play with.

Bud
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post #341 of 683
7/4/12 at 5:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

That Crestron piece looks a lot like their answer to Lutron's Grafik Eye and will certainly control on/off, dimming and offer full control with no problem....but not for RGB LEDs if you want the "wow" factor of the color changing lights - for that you need a completely different setup as described above. The most difficult thing about the RGB LEDs to me is the control. But the cost of control beyond the credit card remote goes up exponentially at this point in time as the market is not fully developed. The Stewart Filmscreen E-Node control for their system is close to $2,000 for the unit itself. Then all the other accessory pieces are in the $300 to $500 range EACH. So you could really have $5000 into RGD LED lighting with the Stewart system before you know it.
Given that the system quoted above by aaustin is IR-based, you would have no problem flashing each of the RGB LED controllers (located in the equipment room I would assume) with an IR emitter for control, essentially putting all 44 features of the credit-card sized remote onto your URC, Logitech, or whatever you are using.

As for the transformers, there is a bit of relatively simple engineering to designing the system. I will start by saying you would home-run a Cat5 lead to each LED that needs its own power transformer, allowing you to keep all the power in the equipment room. From there you would just have to take into account the voltage loss for the run over the cat5 (ohms of resistance) and the length of the LED strip you wish to drive to determine the amperage power supply you will need. Look at it this way - even if you did one power supply per coffer in your ceiling, you would be looking at $120 (12 x $10 each) to power all the strip lights in your ceiling easily with no issues. Coordinating the signal control is easily done a couple of different ways, but we can cross that bridge if/when you come to it.

I would recommend that you get a complete RGB LED kit to experiment with like the one here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5M-LED-Strips-Kits-SMD-5050-RGB-30LEDs-M-Flexible-Car-Strips-IP65-Waterproof-/220973183015?pt=US_Car_Lighting&hash=item3373073027#ht_1868wt_1163


Wish I had seen you post before I purchased them individually, would have been cheaper. smile.gif The E-node control is too much for my budget, for sure. For me, the multiple colors and the control options aren't high on my list, heat control is obviously. I didn't use LED rope light in the last build and I want to make sure I'm using LEDs this time around.

Bud
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post #342 of 683
7/4/12 at 5:23am
Just another random note on lighting, I recently replaced a bunch of reflector style 30 and 50 watt bulbs in my ceiling cans with LED bulbs. Works perfectly from my perspective. I used a combo of the $10 and $20 bulbs from Home Depot. They dim but not all the way. My manual dimmer swithes do have an off button which does turn them off.
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post #343 of 683
7/4/12 at 6:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinadog View Post

I would still need at least a transformer (and maybe a controller) for each chain?Bud

The beauty of the controller that I linked to is that you can connect up to five different chains to it and power them off of one transformer. In my build I have a total of two strands going so I only use two of the five available outputs. Since each 5 meter length is 3 amps, I bought a 6 amp transformer. With your situation you could add up the total length in one half of the room (the 5 sections of the ceiling that are controlled by the 5 outputs on one controller) and calculate the amperage that you would need so that you can purchase the correct transformer. With the setup that I described earlier you would only need two controllers and two transformers.

I'd be careful extending the wires with cat5. I'd think that the low wire gauge would cause problems with voltage drop. Some 14 gauge 4-conductor speaker wire would be what I recommend.

In terms of controlling the credit card remote system, I'd place the two transformers and the two controllers in the equipment room and run an ir repeater to them. Then you can program your universal remote with the included one to tie everything together. If you want to have everything built into one button press (start movie, dim lights, bring up LEDs, etc.) then you could program a macro into your Harmony to turn on the LED's and dim them down to the correct level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinadog View Post

For me, the multiple colors and the control options aren't high on my list,
Bud

One thing that I didn't think would be as useful as it has turned out to be is the ability to change colors. For television and video games I like the blue or green as they are a little brighter and provide just a bit of ambient light. But for movies, I like to switch to red since it still gives the cool "glow" effect on the ceiling without lighting up the room much. It's really nice to have the luxury of being able to change the colors like that.
Edited by aaustin - 7/4/12 at 6:38am
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post #344 of 683
7/4/12 at 6:54am
Thank you aaustin for rephrasing what I said regarding the location of the controller and transformers in the equipment room - I was still "pre-coffee" at the time of my first post. Your phrasing is much more clear.

I do have a couple of things to add to your last comment:
  • Not only will Bud have to calculate the pure and simple LED light strip load, but also the electrical resistance on the line running from the equipment room to the starting location of each strip light run. Believe me, I found this out the hard way and it is well-earned and paid-for information. smile.gif The additional resistance from these wire runs will only show its ugly head when you start to reach the maximum capacity of the transformer based on the number of LEDS.
  • You can absolutely use Cat5 with no issues whatsoever. I have seen some guys even take a full pairing and twist them together to double the size of each conductor. It works well and reliably. If you think of some of the POE devices that are out there - particularly full-sized digital landline phones with LCD screens, lights and ringers where up to 90volts is being sent down a single conductor of a Cat5 wire for power, then jumping between LED strip light runs with Cat5 begins to look like the cake walk it is (electrically speaking).
  • I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I happen to have an electrical background... you don't want to run a significantly larger and heavier gauge wire to connect things up. Electrical codes forbid mixing different wire gauges because the connections produce heat since there is a difference in resistance. A larger wire carries less resistance - so if you connect it to the same size wire there are no problems but if you connect it on to a smaller size "wire" (i.e. the circuit of the LED light strip), there is a low resistance wire making a connection to a much higher resistance smaller wire and contact point. For that reason all electrical conditions should be similarly sized to avoid the build-up of heat and other potential problems. If Cat5 is not used then he can just buy a few spools of the real stranded wire specifically engineered for the purpose like this: http://www.dhgate.com/10m-led-rgb-cable-wire-extension-cord-for/p-ff80808130e5a325013122d4204d141a.html Otherwise the connecting wires should be sized to the conductors in the LED strip lighting as closely as possible to avoid problems.
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post #345 of 683
7/4/12 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Thank you aaustin for rephrasing what I said regarding the location of the controller and transformers in the equipment room - I was still "pre-coffee" at the time of my first post. Your phrasing is much more clear.
I do have a couple of things to add to your last comment:
  • Not only will Bud have to calculate the pure and simple LED light strip load, but also the electrical resistance on the line running from the equipment room to the starting location of each strip light run. Believe me, I found this out the hard way and it is well-earned and paid-for information. smile.gif The additional resistance from these wire runs will only show its ugly head when you start to reach the maximum capacity of the transformer based on the number of LEDS.
  • You can absolutely use Cat5 with no issues whatsoever. I have seen some guys even take a full pairing and twist them together to double the size of each conductor. It works well and reliably. If you think of some of the POE devices that are out there - particularly full-sized digital landline phones with LCD screens, lights and ringers where up to 90volts is being sent down a single conductor of a Cat5 wire for power, then jumping between LED strip light runs with Cat5 begins to look like the cake walk it is (electrically speaking).
  • I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I happen to have an electrical background... you don't want to run a significantly larger and heavier gauge wire to connect things up. Electrical codes forbid mixing different wire gauges because the connections produce heat since there is a difference in resistance. A larger wire carries less resistance - so if you connect it to the same size wire there are no problems but if you connect it on to a smaller size "wire" (i.e. the circuit of the LED light strip), there is a low resistance wire making a connection to a much higher resistance smaller wire and contact point. For that reason all electrical conditions should be similarly sized to avoid the build-up of heat and other potential problems. If Cat5 is not used then he can just buy a few spools of the real stranded wire specifically engineered for the purpose like this: http://www.dhgate.com/10m-led-rgb-cable-wire-extension-cord-for/p-ff80808130e5a325013122d4204d141a.html Otherwise the connecting wires should be sized to the conductors in the LED strip lighting as closely as possible to avoid problems.

Thanks for clearing all that up TMcG. As I said earlier, I don't have a ton of experience with figuring out the resistance of wires, current load, etc. That's why we need people like you here! biggrin.gif

I'm more of the "find lights that make pretty colors" guy. smile.gif
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post #346 of 683
7/4/12 at 10:02am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the clarification and the discussion guys. Very helpful.

Bud
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post #347 of 683
7/4/12 at 2:25pm
Thread Starter 
Got a few things done today, including a rain detector for the sprinkler system and I redid the front door windows with some film I bought from http://www.decorativefilm.com/. Wanted an easy, inexpensive solution with replacing the glass or doors. Came out pretty good. Oh. I also framed out the home theater entrance door. It was a six foot door, Dennis designed it with a 2-8 door. I need to add one more 2x6 to the door frame to stiffen it up good, but ran out of lumber.

Entrance:
448

Now I'm thinking about an elaborate entrance to the theater, including a marquee. More to come as I gather info and look for inspirations. I'll hang my ticket window off on the left wall and get (or build) a gold, chasing light backlit poster box on the left side of the theater entrance.

Bud
Edited by chinadog - 7/5/12 at 5:23am
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post #348 of 683
7/4/12 at 2:40pm
Thread Starter 
Here's the door in case you were curious. It was just plain glass before. Looks like its wet or antique and really helps with the privacy from the outside looking in. Really easy to install.

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Closeup:
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Here's a shot from Creative FIlms:
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Bud
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post #349 of 683
7/5/12 at 8:30pm
Jumping back to the rope light/strip light discussion, is the following an accurate statement:

-Standard LED rope light (non strip variety) is not dimmable in either 120V or 12V varieties. For something dimmable, I would need to look at either standard incandescent rope light (either 120V and 12V) or the newer 24V LED tape/strip lights.

Based on what I found on the 1000bulbs site, this appears to be the case. If the tape/strip light is the only dimmable LED option, my lighting budget needs to be revised. For those that have used the standard LED rope light, do you find that it is too bright without a dimmer?
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post #350 of 683
7/5/12 at 8:52pm
Thread Starter 
Spaceman -

Here is a dimmable LED rope light - but their pricier - but not all of theirs is dimmable. http://www.ledropelightsandmore.com/led-2wire-12-120v-rope-light-blue-150.html

Bud
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post #351 of 683
7/5/12 at 9:55pm
Thanks Bud. Looks like some research is in order. Just wait until my wife sees me working on a rope light spreadsheet.
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post #352 of 683
7/12/12 at 5:08pm
Thread Starter 
Saturday is electrical wiring day for the theater. We should be able to do it in a day. I also want to run conduit this weekend, so I need to pull down the rest of the insulation in the room to expose the trusses. Should be really easy to run the stuff in this room since there is so much room between the ceiling and the floor. Waiting on the HVAC guy, just sent him a reminder. If I don't hear from him by Monday, I'm moving on to the next HVAC guy.

Last weekend we actually put in 8 recessed cans in the bigger room in the basement. The lighting in the room was only via the ceiling fan and it really didn't work well. Since we had all the drywall out of the theater, that exposed the back of a switch box at the bottom of the stairs. We pulled the box out and replaced it with a three gang box and were able to run the wiring over to the first can location. It was great, the can location ran in line with the trusses direction and we had plenty or room do install them. Using my fish sticks, we were able to go through the trusses to the other side of the room and run a second row of cans. Nothing like a very easy retro install.

Still waiting on the lights from ebay I wanted to play with. GOt the PS and the control, but no lights. I also ordered a few double recessed clock outlets, I have some ideas for poster boxes in the concession/equipment room as well as the marquee and poster boxes on the outside of the theater. The came today. Thanks Spaceman for the link.

Looking forward to the Reston trip next week, although things will slow down a little on build starting next week.

Bud
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post #353 of 683
7/12/12 at 5:18pm
Thread Starter 
I'm also thinking through the hidden doors on the room (back of entrance door) and door into equipment room. I'm going to need your thoughts on that. First, the theater room doo is a outswing left hinged door that will be treated with 2" of acoustic material and lots of molding. I'm trying to figure that out. I figure once I have one, the other will be mostly easy except for that scone on the door thing. smile.gif

Here are a couple of drawings. First, the door will look something like this, where the outer panels will be finished wood, then trim going around acoustic material and felt. There be be a chair rail that will go across the door, then another panel with the same design on the bottom part of the door. At the very bottom is base modeling.
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Second, because the door swings out and the door needs to be flush with the drywall on the interior side, I'm having a hard time conceptualizing how I build this with the moldings and not hitting the side of the jamb when opening.
597

Any thoughts. BIG?

Bud
Edited by chinadog - 7/12/12 at 7:43pm
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post #354 of 683
7/12/12 at 6:20pm
Your image looks like you're planning a wide throw hinge. I would think that this makes your interior treatments harder to fit, but I'm not very good at visualizing the motion of the door around a point outside itself...
Wide throw hinge
189

Is there space outside the narrow jamb (but inside the wide jamb) for an offset hinge?
197
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post #355 of 683
7/12/12 at 6:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinadog View Post

because the door swings out and the door needs to be flush with the drywall on the interior side, I'm having a hard time conceptualizing how I build this with the moldings and not hitting the side of the jamb when opening.
597
Any thoughts.
Bud

I would say you have to fake it for the sake of proper mechanical operation. By this I mean mount the "problem" side trim inside the room and simply extend the acoustic treatment that's on the face of the door. You could also easily add a very slight bevel to that edge of the acoustic treatment if you needed it for clearance purposes. Granted, it doesn't get you the absolute *perfect* dead-on look, but it will get you a fully functional door with almost perfect alignment.
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post #356 of 683
7/12/12 at 6:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinadog View Post

Any thoughts. BIG?
Bud

The doors I've done with one inch add on panels were both in-swing, we just used the wide throw hinges. It looks like just using a larger gap between the door mounted panel and the adjacent wall trim solves the problem but then you've got the gap which you would have to disguise somehow.
Edited by BIGmouthinDC - 7/12/12 at 7:06pm
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post #357 of 683
7/12/12 at 7:14pm
Thread Starter 
Fred,

At this stage I can reframe either door if need be, but I have to figure it out before drywalling. I was thinking about it, but wasn't sure if a wide throw hinge buys me anything. I was also thinking it may make sense to use a pivot hinge. In my investigation with hidden doors, it looks like pivot hinges are a popular choice. Not sure how hard that would be to secure to the concrete, but on second thought it may be sitting on acoustically treated subfloor. I'm not sure how you seal something like this from sound leakage.

Something like this:
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http://www.hiddendoorsdirect.com/

and more details here: http://www.garymkatz.com/trimtechniques/hidden_pivot_bookcase_install.htm

he recommends the http://www.epivots.com/rixson-370.aspx

Pricey hinge!

Bud
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post #358 of 683
7/12/12 at 7:22pm
Thread Starter 
I think this is very similar with a pivot hinge:
700

Bud
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post #359 of 683
7/12/12 at 7:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

I would say you have to fake it for the sake of proper mechanical operation. By this I mean mount the "problem" side trim inside the room and simply extend the acoustic treatment that's on the face of the door. You could also easily add a very slight bevel to that edge of the acoustic treatment if you needed it for clearance purposes. Granted, it doesn't get you the absolute *perfect* dead-on look, but it will get you a fully functional door with almost perfect alignment.

I think I understand what you're saying. Basically (maybe) build out the section so the trim piece is really not on the door, but the wall itself,so when the door is closed, it appears complete, when open, the trim is stays with the wall. If that makes sense.

Bud
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post #360 of 683
7/12/12 at 7:39pm
Thread Starter 
Actually, looking at the pivot hinge setup, it looks as though you need to leave a gap on both sides of the door for clearance - it's hidden by fixed trim, but won't help with sound isolation.

Bud
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