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Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 36

post #1051 of 1353
9/18/12 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

I know you influenced me as well as Curt:)

One caveat. I just try to buy one and found out the Oppo 93's our currently out of stock. I heard from an insider a replacement may by in the works. If you don't have one already get one while you still can...
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post #1052 of 1353
9/18/12 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

One caveat. I just try to buy one and found out the Oppo 93's our currently out of stock. I heard from an insider a replacement may by in the works. If you don't have one already get one while you still can...
No longer sold, though I believe refurbs are still available. The replacement BD-P103 is due out very soon.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428214/official-oppo-bdp-103-bdp-105-anticipation-thread
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post #1053 of 1353
9/18/12 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

It looks like I will be trading out my AP20 for an RS20i in the next few weeks -- I'm quite excited to hear if there are any audible differences between the two units - Really looking forward to trying out the bass management that has gotten such strong reviews

There are differences albeit sometimes subtle and dependent upon on what you are listening too. I invite GCA and/or JapanDave to make a comment as both have recently upgraded their AP20s to RS20i. I would also invite them to make comment on the Bass Management capabilities of the Datasat RS20i.
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #1054 of 1353
9/18/12 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

What I mean is the RS20i has nothing to decode, just gets PCM. One can argue that the PCM from the Oppo should be identical to the PCM the RS20i creates inside but I'm not so sure about this. The PCM from my Playstation definitely sounds different (less dynamic range, less LFE) than when the RS20i decodes. Don't know if this is simply fixed by some volume manipulations, but there are differences. Also I dislike being forced to use one specific player, which I don't like a lot anyway, just to get full sound quality in my chain.
This will not necessarily be the case when you use the modded Oppo. The oppo will reclock the PCM data stream.
? I'm not talking about jitter, but HDMI input versus PCM input (not via HDMI). HDMI input means output gets 16 bit/48 Khz, PCM input means output gets input as is (upto 24 Bit/192 Khz) e.g., full quality.
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post #1055 of 1353
9/18/12 at 10:55am
I already have a 93 so I am just sending it to get it modded.
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post #1056 of 1353
9/18/12 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

I already have a 93 so I am just sending it to get it modded.

Who would do the mod? I got my board from Czech Republic direct and installed it myself.
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post #1057 of 1353
9/18/12 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Who would do the mod? I got my board from Czech Republic direct and installed it myself.
JVB Digital
Grosse Ile, MI 48138
USA
That is who Curt led me to.
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post #1058 of 1353
9/18/12 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

JVB Digital
Grosse Ile, MI 48138
USA
That is who Curt led me to.

Unless they are now importing the board from Czech Republic this would be the Shawn (forgot his last name) board. If you don't do SACD this may be equivalent - if you do want SACD the vanity93 board will be far superior.
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post #1059 of 1353
9/18/12 at 3:18pm
Does the Trinnov remapping feature on the stand alone units work outside the sweet spot with multiple measurement positions involved or is the intended purpose of remapping only viable for a single listening position?
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post #1060 of 1353
9/18/12 at 4:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Does the Trinnov remapping feature on the stand alone units work outside the sweet spot with multiple measurement positions involved or is the intended purpose of remapping only viable for a single listening position?
Regardless of the number of measurement positions chosen by the user, one must be selected as the "Reference" position. This reference determines the remapping.
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post #1061 of 1353
9/18/12 at 5:22pm
Ed

Is the reclocked JVB Oppo more ideal than HDMI from the Blu Ray player? I
wondering if the MC solution is one for me. Cool stuff.
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post #1062 of 1353
9/18/12 at 6:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Ed
Is the reclocked JVB Oppo more ideal than HDMI from the Blu Ray player? I
wondering if the MC solution is one for me. Cool stuff.

There are three considerations;

Analog versus digital signal path. The only way to get is signal that starts life as HDMI into the Trinnov is through A/D conversion - the Oppo will be digital direct.
Clocking - I don't know the board JVB uses, but the Vanity board reclocks. I believe the JVB board does as well. So this should be another improvement
Protocol - HDMI is inherently an inferior protocol to cary high rez than 4 x S/PDIF. I am not an electronic engineer, but I believe the main reason is in HDMI the audio clock is derived from the video clock, whereas the 4 x S/PDIF is separed and reclocked.

So in my estimation this is a triple whammy and the Oppo digital route will trounce whatever you can achieve through HDMI source. In fact, I would think an Oppo digital into a Trinnov MC8 should sound as good if not better than the ADA reference. Of course, this is all deductive reasoning and in the final analysis only your ears will be able to tell.
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post #1063 of 1353
9/18/12 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Apparently, the 3D remapping in the Trinnov will also generate the two channels for you on a 5.1 source.
With a 7-speaker layout, where the sides are at ±90° and the rears are at ±150°, remapping a 5.1 source means that the entire contents of each surround channel is leaked to other speakers in order to create a pair of virtual surround speakers that phantom image at ±110° (between your sides and rears).

This is very different from the 5.1 to 7.1 matrix processing that Jeff was referencing, where sounds that would have phantom imaged behind you are extracted from the surround channels and sent to the speakers behind you. By comparison, remapping doesn't split the surround channels into distinct side and rear components.
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post #1064 of 1353
9/19/12 at 3:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

With a 7-speaker layout, where the sides are at ±90° and the rears are at ±150°, remapping a 5.1 source means that the entire contents of each surround channel is leaked to other speakers in order to create a pair of virtual surround speakers that phantom image at ±110° (between your sides and rears).
This is very different from the 5.1 to 7.1 matrix processing that Jeff was referencing, where sounds that would have phantom imaged behind you are extracted from the surround channels and sent to the speakers behind you. By comparison, remapping doesn't split the surround channels into distinct side and rear components.

I get what you're saying how rear channel info is generated but is there any disadvantage sonically to regenerated channels (e.g. what's done in the Trinnov) vs matrixing?
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post #1065 of 1353
9/19/12 at 5:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I get what you're saying how rear channel info is generated but is there any disadvantage sonically to regenerated channels (e.g. what's done in the Trinnov) vs matrixing?
Yes. With Trinnov, there's no new different directional cues that span the back half of the soundfield. It still sounds like 2 surrounds. PLIIx extracts and delineates these cues as per the mix.
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post #1066 of 1353
9/19/12 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Regardless of the number of measurement positions chosen by the user, one must be selected as the "Reference" position. This reference determines the remapping.

Thanks
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post #1067 of 1353
9/19/12 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

It looks like I will be trading out my AP20 for an RS20i in the next few weeks -- I'm quite excited to hear if there are any audible differences between the two units - Really looking forward to trying out the bass management that has gotten such strong reviews
Congrats on the purchase. you will love it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

There are differences albeit sometimes subtle and dependent upon on what you are listening too. I invite GCA and/or JapanDave to make a comment as both have recently upgraded their AP20s to RS20i. I would also invite them to make comment on the Bass Management capabilities of the Datasat RS20i.
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Unfortunately I have yet to implement the bass management. I hope to get everything sorted out this weekend.
As for sound difference, there is definitely something different to the AP20(In a good way)I don't know how to describe it, maybe you could say the sound is warmer with even more clarity. I did a test with my wife and got her to switch out the D25 to the AP20 and RS20i and I could notice a difference in playing the same content. So I don't think its physiological.
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post #1068 of 1353
9/20/12 at 11:23am
Dan,

Is the Dirac EQ setup fussy about speaker location/orientation like Trinnov?

I like to have the surrounds somewhat upfiring, which is a no-go with Trinnov.

I can re-point after setup but that's got to mess with the result.
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post #1069 of 1353
9/20/12 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Dan,
Is the Dirac EQ setup fussy about speaker location/orientation like Trinnov?
I like to have the surrounds somewhat upfiring, which is a no-go with Trinnov.
I can re-point after setup but that's got to mess with the result.

To the best of my knowledge and experience the answer is 'NO'. Once early on I had a problem with big folded bass horns matched with short front loaded horns for mids. This was in a large commercial theater and both horns were close to a hard reflective wall. The project was saved when the engineering crew at Dirac Research worked thru the night to get me a last second fix! Our customer was very pleased with the results. I really appreciated Dirac Research's work ethic at the time (and still do!). I have experienced no problems since that occasion in large commercial or consumer spaces where I have applied Dirac Live.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #1070 of 1353
9/20/12 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Dan,

Is the Dirac EQ setup fussy about speaker location/orientation like Trinnov?

I like to have the surrounds somewhat upfiring, which is a no-go with Trinnov. ...
Trinnov à la Sherwood or Trinnov/Trinnov? System gain isn't fixed during calibration in the Trinnov Pro gear as it is in the Sherwood. And the mic is a helluva lot better.
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post #1071 of 1353
9/20/12 at 2:36pm
Good to know, thanks, Carl.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Trinnov à la Sherwood or Trinnov/Trinnov? System gain isn't fixed during calibration in the Trinnov Pro gear as it is in the Sherwood. And the mic is a helluva lot better.

Forgot to mention, a la Sherwood.

Are you saying the issue can be dealt with in Trinnov versions by using a higher level?

Now that you mention it, my front speakers' sensitivity are 98 dB and the surrounds 94, and I had to very few retries on the fronts.
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post #1072 of 1353
9/20/12 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Forgot to mention, a la Sherwood.

Are you saying the issue can be dealt with in Trinnov versions by using a higher level?

Now that you mention it, my front speakers' sensitivity are 98 dB and the surrounds 94, and I had to very few retries on the fronts.
Yes, it's likely that simply increasing the preamp gain will permit the Trinnov Pro to see/hear your surrounds during calibration. Can't do that with the Sherwood, fixed-gain implementation.

I also know that Trinnov increased the (Pro) microphone gain at some point prior to my purchase earlier this year, probably to alleviate calibration gain issues.
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post #1073 of 1353
9/20/12 at 3:14pm
Can we really compare the $100 receiver Trinnov vs the $15,000 Trinnov?
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post #1074 of 1353
9/20/12 at 3:19pm
I'd say no.
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post #1075 of 1353
9/20/12 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Can we really compare the $100 receiver Trinnov vs the $15,000 Trinnov?

Keeping it apples-to-apples, it's an $1800 receiver.

And per Steve's comments there are apparently setup similarities/issues.
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post #1076 of 1353
9/20/12 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Can we really compare the $100 receiver Trinnov vs the $15,000 Trinnov?

Keeping it apples-to-apples, it's an $1800 receiver.

And per Steve's comments there are apparently setup similarities/issues.
I'm confused, Noah. Steve has a Trinnov Pro unit with which he's having setup issues?
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post #1077 of 1353
9/21/12 at 12:04pm
I have had no "set-up" issues.
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post #1078 of 1353
9/21/12 at 1:12pm
I'm referring to Dan's comments earlier in the thread.
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post #1079 of 1353
9/21/12 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

I'm confused, Noah. Steve has a Trinnov Pro unit with which he's having setup issues?

I wish!!!tongue.gif

I've used the Sherwood and was impressed with the remapping,but it lacks certain things both sonically and operationally that I imagine the stand alone boxes don't compromise on.
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post #1080 of 1353
9/22/12 at 7:48am
Thread Starter 
Noah, can you quote the specific comments for me- it would be easier for me to respond to your question.

Also, I have not aimed loudspeakers in a manner like you're suggesting; but off-axis is off-axis, so one would think that you could have the speakers pointed up or sideways with either system given the signal volume was high enough to account for off-axis drop off (of course you run into other issues at that point, because the system will try to correct for the fact that the tweeter is essentially nonexistent off-axis. You're probably better-off trying to add diffusion if you need a more nebulous surround field (that or many more speakers for the same effect).

Anyway, I don't really see how Noah's installation situation is really that different from say using in-ceiling surrounds.

Both systems should level-match your various channels- the question is whether you run out of gain for said channels because the signal level is too low (what the mic "hears").

Dan
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AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!!