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Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 37

post #1081 of 1408
Dan,

With the digital input on the Trinnov MC. Why would anyone buy the TEQ?

What features am I missing?

Thanks!
post #1082 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Dan,
With the digital input on the Trinnov MC. Why would anyone buy the TEQ?
What features am I missing?
Thanks!

For multi channel digital in will be a non-factor. How many people are going to fiddle with modded Oppos? It would have been smart to add 4 channel of digital input to the TEQ (and Magnitude32 for that matter), for folks wanting to run one or two digital stereo sources directly into their Trinnov, alongside the A/D convered multi channel signal path. If you had a TEQ, you could even select these 2 channel digital input from your ADA and control volume, using the ADA bus TEQ integration link
post #1083 of 1408
I moved away from ADA for the same reason. It seems that the TEQ is becoming a bit obsolete. More and more units will have digital outputs which would make the MC8 more future proof. The customers take this under consideration because of the costs involved in both units. Furthermore, considering the price of both units there is no brainer why people would go with TEQ?
post #1084 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Noah, can you quote the specific comments for me- it would be easier for me to respond to your question.

That would take a lot of time, but I recall you saying that you spent a lot of time on iterating Trinnov setup, though maybe it wasn't related to orienting speakers.
post #1085 of 1408
Thread Starter 
Major benefit to running TEQ over MC8 is that with a ADA processor- there is the ADA BUS integration; this can be pretty important when you approach the limits of gain-structure. Not to mention that there is not really a price benefit to the MC8 vs. the TEQ8- at least that is what has been explained to me by Curt; ultimately from an integration standpoint (not the approach that edorr takes; which is certainly valid, though more of a work-around) TEQ is an easier fit for the following reasons: there are more ADA dealers than Trinnov dealers (there's already an established dealer network, this helps with support, sales themselves, and warranty work if necessary), the device is designed to not only provide the Trinnov benefits, but do so pretty seamlessly with ADA gear.

My personal opinion is this- if you guys want to try to integrate MC8s into your systems; great! I feel that Trinnov technology is certainly a game changer for the home theater industry. TEQ is absolutely not becoming obsolete; the fact remains that you're discussing modified OPPO players that are illegal with respect to HDMI copyright protection (whether I think it's ridiculous or not..) to couple with the AES inputs on a professional Trinnov unit.

The fact is, that ADA dealer network is already there, and already plugged-in to a system to provide after-the-sale support. If you're not receiving that from a dealer- I strongly recommend finding a new one that does provide it.

Multi-channel Trinnov optimization is not for the uninitiated; exceptionally powerful in the hands of a professional that has been trained on the interpretation of measurement results- and exceptionally complex as you drill-down to really optimize every last detail- even for a professional.

Noah, my process was to really nail everything I could in our demo room to provide the best possible performance for both ADA/Trinnov and Datasat/Dirac. I feel like I did the best I could, and I'm not deluded enough to say that there couldn't have been more improvements. I made some more improvements after we received the Cinema Reference, and there will be even more after the front-stage is upgraded shortly. Our loudspeaker positions are pretty-well fixed: the surrounds are in-wall, 6 of the 8 subs are in-wall, and the front 3 loudspeakers are not that movable (you don't gain any benefit from doing it).

Dan
post #1086 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

? I'm not talking about jitter, but HDMI input versus PCM input (not via HDMI). HDMI input means output gets 16 bit/48 Khz, PCM input means output gets input as is (upto 24 Bit/192 Khz) e.g., full quality.

So, on an Oppo, if I am playing 44/16 Redbook CDs and sending it to the processor via HDMI it gets resampled to 48/16?
post #1087 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

? I'm not talking about jitter, but HDMI input versus PCM input (not via HDMI). HDMI input means output gets 16 bit/48 Khz, PCM input means output gets input as is (upto 24 Bit/192 Khz) e.g., full quality.

So, on an Oppo, if I am playing 44/16 Redbook CDs and sending it to the processor via HDMI it gets resampled to 48/16?
I think the internal filters of the RS20i work at 96 Khz, so it gets upsampled to 96 Khz and then downsampled to 48/16 for output.
post #1088 of 1408
Dan, so did you have any trouble with failed attempts at getting Trinnov to recognize speakers?
post #1089 of 1408
Thread Starter 
No, Trinnov never had an issue recognizing speakers- we did run the sweeps a couple times to get the alignment right on the center channel (it's behind the screen)- the entire system is configured off a 0 degree axis to the center channel- so if you're off 5 degrees the system remaps 5 degrees shifted. (center image)

Dirac had some issues with the funky drivers ATC used in our L/R mains- but that isn't an issue with the conventional drivers in my CAT speakers at home.

Essentially, if you're using multiple drivers for one channel (like a speaker with a passive crossover) you cannot correct the impulse response using Dirac- only if the system is utilized as active crossover of each passband (subs, bass, mids, highs) -then Dirac optimizes impulse response of each passband. when you think about it, if you're using 6 to 9 channels of the RS20i (or a Theta Casa once Dirac is implemented) you can make your mains completely active in your processor- and fully optimized in the digital domain. Of course Trinnov has the same capabilities as well- I my have even posted the screenshots somewhere.

Dan
post #1090 of 1408
Code:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

I think the internal filters of the RS20i work at 96 Khz, so it gets upsampled to 96 Khz and then downsampled to 48/16 for output.

Does the Oppo send 16/44 redbook CD out as 48 if sent via HDMI? I know it sends 44 if sent out via spdif.
post #1091 of 1408
Thanks, Dan.

I guess I was misremembering your diligence as the Trinnov being fussy.
post #1092 of 1408
I'm moving a Trinnov discussion in the ADA thread to here where it's more appropriate, starting from here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1196455/ada-mach-4-wow/1950_50#post_22457094 .

Curt emailed me the following:

"Some points:

Canare 6Mhz SPDIF adaptor only good for 48/24 (6Mhz is the bandwidth consumed
by 48/24). SPDIF > AES impedance mis-match (75>110) is not an issue at
very short runs, below transmission line lengths where reflections become
important (again, a function of bandwidth).

The Trinnov units do have many choices for remapping, including 5.1, 7.1,
6.1, 3/4 SMPTE, 5/2 SDDS, 8 channels, 3/6 SMPTE, 12 channels. New formats
(based on actual input channels) will be added as they become popular. As
an example, 11.2 is straightforward for us to add, but generally, we will
not be providing a format based on a third party's arbitrary upmix. Our
decision to do a mapping is based on applicability and customer demand.
That said, in some cases, customers pay for us to develop remapping for
their purpose.
I've done some programming of mapping during a HT install, so there are a
lot of ways to get it done."

Curt, to what speaker locations will Trinnov remap using the 8-ch and 12-ch formats?
Edited by noah katz - 10/6/12 at 10:25pm
post #1093 of 1408
Hi noah katz,

Got a feed back from both my integrator and Trinnov on the question.
Quote:
SPDIF > AES impedance mis-match (75>110) is not an issue at
very short runs

Curt is right here. For those who have short length cables (<= 3 meters), spdif --> AES adapter is no mandatory.
Quote:
Canare 6Mhz SPDIF adaptor only good for 48/24

I would like Curt gives more details here...
Why an adapter with 6 MHz (6000 Hz) bandwidth is not able to deal with 2X96 KHz audio tracks ?

I asked the question to Neutrik and I was guaranteed their adapters are 96 KHz compatible.
Quote:
Frequencyrange0.1 - 6 MHz
Rated voltage≤ 5 V p-p
VSWR< 1.1
Return loss> 26.4 dB
Insertion Loss< 0.3 dB @ 0.1 MHz to 10 MHz

On the other hand, I d'ont understand how a spdif/aes adapter could be 24/48 Khz compliant and not 24/96 Khz.
This test has already been done by my integrator, no problem here.

Since I have sold my ADA unit, I'm going to use 1 DB25 --> 4 spdif + 1 DB25 --> 2spdif cables to plug my digital drives (Oppo 93 modded + SB Touch modded) on the Trinnov (1 AES card).
Cables used are made by Vovox.


Here below, an interesting article ...

http://www.sonicsense.com/blog/index.php/frequently-asked-questions/how-to-convert-between-spdif-and-aes-digital-audio/#.UGxFdYdqBK8
Edited by Sound&Life - 10/7/12 at 8:50am
post #1094 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

Hi noah katz,
Got a feed back from both my integrator and Trinnov on the question.

Curt is right here. For those who have short length cables (<= 3 meters), spdif --> AES adapter is no mandatory.
I would like Curt gives more details here...
Why an adapter with 6 MHz (6000 Hz) bandwidth is not able to deal with 2X96 KHz audio tracks ?
I asked the question to Neutrik and I was guaranteed their adapters are 96 KHz compatible.
On the other hand, I d'ont understand how a spdif/aes adapter could be 24/48 Khz compliant and not 24/96 Khz.

The short answer is that you are comparing apples and oranges: 44/16, 48/24, 96/24 are all bit rate numbers, not the bandwidth required to carry the data. 44/16 does not equal 44x16 or anything meaningful to bandwidth.

Look on the Internet for bandwidth tables and you'll find the approximations (bit rate not specified) by multiplying sampling rate by 128 to get actual bandwidth.

Sample Rate - kHz ...>... Actual Bandwidth- MHz
44.1 ...>... 5.6448
48 ...>... 6.144
96 ...>... 12.288
192 ...>... 24.576

My research into transformer based impedance converters, such as the Canare, led me to find the published designed bandwidth is for max of 48k bitrate or 6MHz. It would be good news if it can be definitively shown that the Neutrik is good to 96k (I didn't find written specs supporting this when I looked for it). This becomes more evident when one understands the intended purpose of Canare and similar adapters - they came to the market to support pushing AES 48k audio down video cables in digital video production suites. That's why they have BNC terminations. Also note that when using adaptors with BNCs that most BNCs are 50 ohm (computer std), not 75 ohm specified for video and SPDIF audio.

BTW, all digital AES I/O on Trinnov based systems are transformer isolated, designed to operate at up to 192kHz sample rate.

Cheers-
post #1095 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I'm moving a Trinnov discussion in the ADA thread to here where it's more appropriate, starting from here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1196455/ada-mach-4-wow/1950_50#post_22457094 .
Curt emailed me the following:
"Some points:
Canare 6Mhz SPDIF adaptor only good for 48/24 (6Mhz is the bandwidth consumed
by 48/24). SPDIF > AES impedance mis-match (75>110) is not an issue at
very short runs, below transmission line lengths where reflections become
important (again, a function of bandwidth).
The Trinnov units do have many choices for remapping, including 5.1, 7.1,
6.1, 3/4 SMPTE, 5/2 SDDS, 8 channels, 3/6 SMPTE, 12 channels. New formats
(based on actual input channels) will be added as they become popular. As
an example, 11.2 is straightforward for us to add, but generally, we will
not be providing a format based on a third party's arbitrary upmix. Our
decision to do a mapping is based on applicability and customer demand.
That said, in some cases, customers pay for us to develop remapping for
their purpose.
I've done some programming of mapping during a HT install, so there are a
lot of ways to get it done."
Curt, to what speaker locations will Trinnov remap using the 8-ch and 12-ch formats?

the 8 and 12 channel formats assume an equilateral layout for professional use- planetariums and the like; not intended to support a consumer playback standard.

Cheers,
post #1096 of 1408
I found this Digital audio selector http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=449 but I cannot understand why do you need a moded OPPO to get the digital signal out. Is the didital signal from the OPPO already gone through some kind of ADA conversion?
post #1097 of 1408
Thread Starter 
Folks are talking about using modded OPPO players to pass SPDIF digital audio AFTER the decoding chips for DTS and Dolby advanced codecs have been decoded- thereby creating a pseudo-substitute for the ADA Cinema Reference. This is because the Trinnov commercial products do not have HDMI inputs, so the signal cannot be passed digitally LEGALLY unless the connection is in a chassis (as inside the ADA).

Personally, since I've used Trinnov devices both ways; I'd say that this is a compromised way of doing things- the only reason that I jumped on the Cinema Reference so fast was because DAC capabilities from Trinnov without the ADA DACs inline was a true stepping stone over Theta. If Trinnov were to develop a product that contained even a single HDMI input and were to pay licensing to the respective parties for decoding ( probably compromising the relationship that they have with ADA, which has certainly proven to be beneficial to both parties- this thread is a perfect example ), they would have themselves quite the processor- but that game is a slippery slope.

Dan
post #1098 of 1408
Dan, thanks for the clarification (as usual smile.gif

do you still need this conversion if the disk is DTS-HD Master Audio?
post #1099 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

I asked the question to Neutrik and I was guaranteed their adapters are 96 KHz compatible.
Quote:
Frequencyrange0.1 - 6 MHz
Rated voltage≤ 5 V p-p
VSWR< 1.1
Return loss> 26.4 dB
Insertion Loss< 0.3 dB @ 0.1 MHz to 10 MHz
]

For those of you paying special attention to the previous bit rate/bandwidth post, please note this spec is only good to 48/24, not 96/24.




Cheers,
post #1100 of 1408
Does anyone have an update on the shipping date for the Dolby HD module for the RS20i?
post #1101 of 1408
My contact at Datasat told me November
post #1102 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

The short answer is that you are comparing apples and oranges: 44/16, 48/24, 96/24 are all bit rate numbers, not the bandwidth required to carry the data. 44/16 does not equal 44x16 or anything meaningful to bandwidth.
Look on the Internet for bandwidth tables and you'll find the approximations (bit rate not specified) by multiplying sampling rate by 128 to get actual bandwidth.
Sample Rate - kHz ...>... Actual Bandwidth- MHz
44.1 ...>... 5.6448
48 ...>... 6.144
96 ...>... 12.288
192 ...>... 24.576
My research into transformer based impedance converters, such as the Canare, led me to find the published designed bandwidth is for max of 48k bitrate or 6MHz. It would be good news if it can be definitively shown that the Neutrik is good to 96k (I didn't find written specs supporting this when I looked for it). This becomes more evident when one understands the intended purpose of Canare and similar adapters - they came to the market to support pushing AES 48k audio down video cables in digital video production suites. That's why they have BNC terminations. Also note that when using adaptors with BNCs that most BNCs are 50 ohm (computer std), not 75 ohm specified for video and SPDIF audio.
BTW, all digital AES I/O on Trinnov based systems are transformer isolated, designed to operate at up to 192kHz sample rate.
Cheers-

Hi Curt,

Thanks for the clarification.
What do you think about a DB25 --> 8 BNC (spdif) cable (from Vovox for example) ?
I suppose there is no problem in this case to operate at up to 192 KHz sample rate (right ?).

I called Jacques some days ago and he told me this could be ok for a short length cable (1,5 m for my own use).

Please let me know if there is any risk (performance decrease) doing this.
I would avoid (if possible) to buy a $1700 unit (like Z-sys) ...

Regards.
post #1103 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

What do you think about a DB25 --> 8 BNC (spdif) cable (from Vovox for example) ?

This should work fine. Just put a few S/DIF ot BNC converters on the Oppo digi outs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

I would avoid (if possible) to buy a $1700 unit (like Z-sys) ...
Regards.

Unless you need digital switching, it would always be a lot cheaper to get a few active converters for about $100 a piece - these will support your bandwidth needs.
post #1104 of 1408
What about this digital switch http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=449? I think is about $ 600 and looks prity handy...
post #1105 of 1408
Here in Italy I' ve been told, as I already tried to write here in the forum, that the only way to go all digitally to Trinnov without downsampling and without a modded Oppo
is to go digitally (no hdmi) from the source to the pre (datasat because it has digital inputs) and then digitally out to the trinnov.

The only "problem" would be that all decodings to dts ma, dolby true hd etc you should let them to the source and you would lose the prepro feautures like dolby prologic IIx (if Datasat will get it...), surround modes, the future auro 3d and so on..

I would love to use all these feautures and maybe at this point I prefer the analogue connection from Ada CRM4 to trinnov or Datasat only with dirac inside even if
I love the idea of 2d/3d remapping of trinnov

Please, don't tell me that the Datasat/trinnov route is not right because in the datasat you already have dirac etc etc.. I know that..
Now I want just to explore this solution to understand if it works..
Then I will evaluate if it worths..

In next days I should know something more detailed...
post #1106 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

This should work fine. Just put a few S/DIF ot BNC converters on the Oppo digi outs.
Unless you need digital switching, it would always be a lot cheaper to get a few active converters for about $100 a piece - these will support your bandwidth needs.

I do not agree.
See the article I posted above. This has been confirmed by several integrators I have auditioned.
Spdif to AES does not need adapter (impedance matching) when using short cables.
So a db25 to Spdif cable seems to be a good and less expensive solution for my need.

Edorr, z_sys unit is usefull for you because of lack of digital entries on the St2 hifi.
I don't have this kind of issue with a MC.

I'm auditioning Curt to have its point of view.. My concern is this solution is 192khz compliant
post #1107 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

I do not agree.
See the article I posted above. This has been confirmed by several integrators I have auditioned.
Spdif to AES does not need adapter (impedance matching) when using short cables.
So a db25 to Spdif cable seems to be a good and less expensive solution for my need.
Edorr, z_sys unit is usefull for you because of lack of digital entries on the St2 hifi.
I don't have this kind of issue with a MC.
I'm auditioning Curt to have its point of view.. My concern is this solution is 192khz compliant

Misunderstanding. You are correct. When I said "S/DIF ot BNC converters" I actually meant the RCA to BNC adapter you buy for $1, to fit the BNC plug to RCA output on the Oppo.

I think the DB25 to BNC cable will work fine, because I used a $10 Lynx cable terminated RCA on one end and XLR on the other and it worked fine too.
post #1108 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

My contact at Datasat told me November

Thanks Mike
post #1109 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound&Life View Post

Hi Curt,
Thanks for the clarification.
What do you think about a DB25 --> 8 BNC (spdif) cable (from Vovox for example) ?
I suppose there is no problem in this case to operate at up to 192 KHz sample rate (right ?).
snip

Don't know the European brand Vovox...

I would try to arrange equipment so that the cable length is 0.5 meter between devices that have a mis-match in impedance (75>110 ohm) for 192k audio. If you must, try 1.0 meter or longer.

The minimum "short transmission line" length (defined as 1/4 wavelength) is 0.5 meters for 100MHz. The bit clock for 192k is running approximately 25MHz, so theoretically a 2 meter cable is OK.

Shorter cables mean less impact in three areas: reflection amplitude, jitter and attenuation. Jitter goes up as a function of cable length, less is better. Also, the higher the frequency, the greater propagation speed and surface effect (signal travels on surface of conductor- more so as frequency rises). This is one of the reasons we see cables made of drawn copper cores with polished silver plated skins.

Cheers,
post #1110 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Don't know the European brand Vovox...
I would try to arrange equipment so that the cable length is 0.5 meter between devices that have a mis-match in impedance (75>110 ohm) for 192k audio. If you must, try 1.0 meter or longer.
The minimum "short transmission line" length (defined as 1/4 wavelength) is 0.5 meters for 100MHz. The bit clock for 192k is running approximately 25MHz, so theoretically a 2 meter cable is OK.
Shorter cables mean less impact in three areas: reflection amplitude, jitter and attenuation. Jitter goes up as a function of cable length, less is better. Also, the higher the frequency, the greater propagation speed and surface effect (signal travels on surface of conductor- more so as frequency rises). This is one of the reasons we see cables made of drawn copper cores with polished silver plated skins.
Cheers,

My db25 - - > 8 BNC câble will be 1m length.. Too short for your point of view or it's OK?
I don't understand What is the relationship between sample rate and cable length.

Regards
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