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Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 44

post #1291 of 1408
OK. Good to know. THere are a lot of software options and I don't fully understand them.

E.G.

Available Software Options
The Trinnov Optimizer is declined in 4 modules that enable different levels of processing and analysis.

Optimizer Runtime Module:
Available in both 4 or 8 Channels modules
Read-Only mode of the Digital Louspeaker/Room Optimization.
Acoustic Correction, Level & Delay Alignments are run as a Black Box.
Needs previous installation with a Universal Optimizer Toolbox from an authorized Dealer/Installer.
Optimizer Toolbox Module:
Available in both 4 or 8 Channels modules.
Unlocks the access to Acoustic Measurement and Analysis, Multipoint Measurement and processing, Automatic EQ, Automatic Phase Alignment, Automatic Crossover Alignment, Target Curves, 2D and 3D Remapping.
Enables to create Correction presets.
Requires a previous installation of the Optimizer Runtime.

Optimizer Bundle:
Gathers both the Optimizer Runtime and the Optimizer Toolbox Modules

Available as 4 or 8 Channels licenses.
Additional Channel Licenses:
Output Channel: Adds one more Crossover, Sub or Satellite output channel to a 4 channels or 8 channels Optimizer bundle.
Full Channel: Adds one more Input and output processing channel to a 4 channels or 8 channels Optimizer bundle.

SmartMeter Module:
Available on both 4 or 8 Channels licenses.

Multiview:
Only available when the SmartMeter is installed.
Provides a split screen with 4 customizable windows displaying monitoring and/or metering tools.
post #1292 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

OK. Good to know. THere are a lot of software options and I don't fully understand them.
E.G.
Available Software Options
The Trinnov Optimizer is declined in 4 modules that enable different levels of processing and analysis.
Optimizer Runtime Module:
Available in both 4 or 8 Channels modules
Read-Only mode of the Digital Louspeaker/Room Optimization.
Acoustic Correction, Level & Delay Alignments are run as a Black Box.
Needs previous installation with a Universal Optimizer Toolbox from an authorized Dealer/Installer.
Optimizer Toolbox Module:
Available in both 4 or 8 Channels modules.
Unlocks the access to Acoustic Measurement and Analysis, Multipoint Measurement and processing, Automatic EQ, Automatic Phase Alignment, Automatic Crossover Alignment, Target Curves, 2D and 3D Remapping.
Enables to create Correction presets.
Requires a previous installation of the Optimizer Runtime.
Optimizer Bundle:
Gathers both the Optimizer Runtime and the Optimizer Toolbox Modules
Available as 4 or 8 Channels licenses.
Additional Channel Licenses:
Output Channel: Adds one more Crossover, Sub or Satellite output channel to a 4 channels or 8 channels Optimizer bundle.
Full Channel: Adds one more Input and output processing channel to a 4 channels or 8 channels Optimizer bundle.
SmartMeter Module:
Available on both 4 or 8 Channels licenses.
Multiview:
Only available when the SmartMeter is installed.
Provides a split screen with 4 customizable windows displaying monitoring and/or metering tools.

You got me intrigued. I have the 4 channel bundle (ST2-Pro), but I need six channels (I currently run 2 channels in pass-through mode). The hardware resticts me to 4 digital input channels, but it appears from the "additional channel licenses" you are showing, I may be able to license two more channels of processinf. This would allow me to apply DRC to my surround channels as well, and do 6 channels of volume control through the Trinnov. I'll check with Curt...
post #1293 of 1408
Yes , it is confusing and actually I keep this away from me , my MC is full feature and includes all the latest advancement from Trinnov . SW 3.51 June 2012 . Just no digital out/in and no smartMeter & Multiview as both pay nothing to the reprocessed sound . Actually , you do not need both during movie hours .

Larry
post #1294 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Ng View Post

Yes , it is confusing and actually I keep this away from me , my MC is full feature and includes all the latest advancement from Trinnov . SW 3.51 June 2012 . Just no digital out/in and no smartMeter & Multiview as both pay nothing to the reprocessed sound . Actually , you do not need both during movie hours .
Larry

If you are integrating a 2 channel audiophile music system with a MCH HT system, the digital in/out is extremely beneficial. You can run a digital 2 channel source (music server or CD player) directly into the Trinnov, use your 2 channel audiophile DAC of choice with the digital outputs, and integrate with the subs which would typically be using the D/A converters in the Trinnov.
post #1295 of 1408
edorr , I think you would need 8 channels (for 7.1) to appreciate the best from Trinnov as re-phasing of these 8 speakers is one most valuable feature , it is hardly possible for us to move our sides , rears & subs 1 . 2 etc. to match those from the fronts , simply not easy , this is where MC do magic . The front 3 speakers should have little phase shift given their symmetrical placement and tonal balancing is not a problem neither if they are of the brand , it is both the sides & rears that cause problem , especially the sub .

I try to mute off the sub and listen to some familiar music and in time I add it in , the low deepened & blossomed as if my fronts were doing magic . Not the sub , that speaks for how good the MC is phasing the sound from various speakers so that they arrive in "correct time" to our ears .

So I urge you to install full channels and not just 6 , unless you are doing 5.1 .

Larry
post #1296 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

OK. Good to know. THere are a lot of software options and I don't fully understand them.
E.G.
Available Software Options
The Trinnov Optimizer is declined in 4 modules that enable different levels of processing and analysis.
Optimizer Runtime Module:
Available in both 4 or 8 Channels modules
Read-Only mode of the Digital Louspeaker/Room Optimization.
Acoustic Correction, Level & Delay Alignments are run as a Black Box.
Needs previous installation with a Universal Optimizer Toolbox from an authorized Dealer/Installer.
Optimizer Toolbox Module:
Available in both 4 or 8 Channels modules.
Unlocks the access to Acoustic Measurement and Analysis, Multipoint Measurement and processing, Automatic EQ, Automatic Phase Alignment, Automatic Crossover Alignment, Target Curves, 2D and 3D Remapping.
Enables to create Correction presets.
Requires a previous installation of the Optimizer Runtime.
Optimizer Bundle:
Gathers both the Optimizer Runtime and the Optimizer Toolbox Modules
Available as 4 or 8 Channels licenses.
Additional Channel Licenses:
Output Channel: Adds one more Crossover, Sub or Satellite output channel to a 4 channels or 8 channels Optimizer bundle.
Full Channel: Adds one more Input and output processing channel to a 4 channels or 8 channels Optimizer bundle.
SmartMeter Module:
Available on both 4 or 8 Channels licenses.
Multiview:
Only available when the SmartMeter is installed.
Provides a split screen with 4 customizable windows displaying monitoring and/or metering tools.

For home theater use, the best value is the Optimizer Bundle, which combines the Toolbox (calibration engine) and the Runtime Module (use mode). The Optimizer Bundle is priced as 4 or 8 "full channels," meaning both in and out. Additional channels are individually priced based on the actual function. In typical systems today, one could have 7.1 In, with any possibility of outputs, up to 16 in the MC or ADA Reference, and 32 in the Magnitude. Software upgrades (remapping) will include new source formats as they become popular, such as 11.1. The ST-2 series are designed primarily for stereo use, and are limited to 4 channels maximum.

The extra outputs added to the Optimizer Bundle are typically additional remapped speakers, extra subs, or active crossovers. A very complicated system can quickly use up the channels. A recently completed HT we participated has currently 28 channels of processing with plans for 32 channels: 22 outputs to 11 bi-amped speakers, 5 subs, and provision for 5 height channels to be installed at a later date.

The Smartmeter is an audio production tool for analyzing the sound levels and compliance with the CALM Act (loudness levels for broadcast). Multi-view allows one to simultaneously look at various audio analysis measurements. All Optimizers come with standard with both input and output metering.

Level control: ADA units are already optimized for lowest distortion by integrating processor and TEQ together via the ADA-Link. Where you do not use an ADA processor, the ideal way to control level when using any Optimizer is to use the digital level control in the Optimizer, rather then the level control provided in the processor. This will give equal results to the ADA configuration. The included meters make optimizing levels an easy task to accomplish. BTW, ADA has done a brilliant job of integrating the Trinnov technology in the TEQ to mate with their processors. To our platform, they have added full XLR/RCA inter-connectivity, as well as the ADA-Link which provides integrated Level control per our recommendations.

Cheers,
post #1297 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Ng View Post

edorr , I think you would need 8 channels (for 7.1) to appreciate the best from Trinnov as re-phasing of these 8 speakers is one most valuable feature , it is hardly possible for us to move our sides , rears & subs 1 . 2 etc. to match those from the fronts , simply not easy , this is where MC do magic . The front 3 speakers should have little phase shift given their symmetrical placement and tonal balancing is not a problem neither if they are of the brand , it is both the sides & rears that cause problem , especially the sub .
I try to mute off the sub and listen to some familiar music and in time I add it in , the low deepened & blossomed as if my fronts were doing magic . Not the sub , that speaks for how good the MC is phasing the sound from various speakers so that they arrive in "correct time" to our ears .
So I urge you to install full channels and not just 6 , unless you are doing 5.1 .
Larry

I have a 5.0 and a 2.0 system and 4 channels of Trinnov processing. My only critical listening is music (MCH SACD and 2 channel). My surround channels run through the Trinnov in bypass mode, which basically applies just the system dealy to the channels so all channels are time aligned.

Surround and side channels are vastly more critical in movie applications. All MCH music is 5.1 or 5.0 and the vast majority of information is on the front 3 channels (and LFE). Spending the additional money on an MC8 is not worth it to me. However, if I can license 2 more channels of processing on the ST2-Pro, I'll have all I need as well. I would run 4 channeld digital in, 2 channels (surround) analog in, 2 channels digital out, and 3 channels analog out. All channels would have full DRC applied. I just inquired with Curt @ Trinnov if this is possible.
post #1298 of 1408
Curt , you have recommended engaging ADA TEQ on whenever we use MC as volume control . TEQ on means placing the ADA Volume to Zero , is it the same as TEQ off and manually set the volume to Zero ?? So asked because I still cannot talk to my Suite from PC and no way I can engaged the TEQ as on/off can only be done through PC .

Thanks in advance .

Larry
post #1299 of 1408
Thanks for the answers. Like Larry, I was wondering about, "ADA-Link which provides integrated Level control per our recommendations."

So, with my Mach IV - set it to TEQ on? How is the ADA link connected to the MC? Bus? Unless I am confused, I wasn't sure this was possible a this point... but great to know!

Also, is 'Smartview' and 'Multiview' included with all Optimizer software purchases?

I assume to add more channels after purchase of an 8 ch model, it has to be shipped back?

Thanks!
post #1300 of 1408
Jeff, the MC is expensive unit and I don't think that when you buy it you should worry about the costs. At least this was my approach. I have the MC with digital and analog in/ outs. I still to figer out how to use the digital channels but at least I know they are there. Furthermore, if you buy more channels in the beginning, for me looked much better option than to add them additionally. The difference between 8 analog channel unit and 16 analog/ digital in/ out was $ 3,000. My understanding was that if you need additional channels, you don't have to ship the unit back to the dealer. The SW is also updated through Internet server and people from Trinnov are very supportive. In US you have a great guy in the face of Curt who is extremely knowledgable and helpful and will assist with the installation of the unit.

I have the TEQ engaged in ADA and the MC and Rhapsody Mach 4 are linked by DB25 XLR x8 cable. After engaging TEQ the sounds seems to clear out more and as Curt said this would help to control the levels better.
I'll write more detail observation but TEQ looks beautiful but is not upgradable and is limit to 96 bits. No digital connection possible. If you buy the same configuration in MC, it is cheaper and you have much more options for upgradability. I personally don't mind the look of MC besides in anyway all gadgets are buried in the cabinets. I used to say that the TEQ is like a blond with nice look but a bit dumb while the MC is like a wife...you get used to the look and does all things you want and need to be done.
post #1301 of 1408
Good to know. There are a number of options with the MC and I want to buy enough so that I'm good. This is new territory for me and I'm trying to figure out what I need.

If I can go to 16 ch without sending in, that would be great! I assumed you'd need 8 more D/A converters.
post #1302 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Good to know. There are a number of options with the MC and I want to buy enough so that I'm good. This is new territory for me and I'm trying to figure out what I need.
If I can go to 16 ch without sending in, that would be great! I assumed you'd need 8 more D/A converters.

Seems like a correct assumption - an 8 channel unit will come with 8 channel DAC hardware. I believe, you would simple install the card for additional channels yourself, and Trinnov will take care of software configuration changes remotely, so no need to send in.
post #1303 of 1408
Thread Starter 
Only ADA TEQ-4,8,12 have the ADA bus integration (where the two volume controls are seamlessly integrated) MC processors do not have that capability. That integration (ADA bus) was what Curt was referencing in his comment. It should be noted that when I had the TEQ, I was not using the ADA bus integration because the system was temporary and was being swapped in and out to compare to the Datasat.

When using the MC series you need to take care to level match the cascaded volume controls, but there are the additional digital inputs available to you (AES), when using they ADA-TEQ the level matching problem is handled automatically but you don't have the additional inputs and you max out at 12 channels. Pricing of ADA TEQ and Trinnov MC is comparable, from what I understand from Curt- though I would assume he can clarify.

Dan
post #1304 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Only ADA TEQ-4,8,12 have the ADA bus integration (where the two volume controls are seamlessly integrated) MC processors do not have that capability. That integration (ADA bus) was what Curt was referencing in his comment. It should be noted that when I had the TEQ, I was not using the ADA bus integration because the system was temporary and was being swapped in and out to compare to the Datasat.
When using the MC series you need to take care to level match the cascaded volume controls, but there are the additional digital inputs available to you (AES), when using they ADA-TEQ the level matching problem is handled automatically but you don't have the additional inputs and you max out at 12 channels. Pricing of ADA TEQ and Trinnov MC is comparable, from what I understand from Curt- though I would assume he can clarify.
Dan

The eastest way to to integrate volume control on the MC and functions on the ADA is by using RS232 and iRule. I have volume up / volume down buttons for the Trinnov integrated on my control screen for my Oppo and for my satellite TV - works like a charm. I never tried to figure out how to get the feedback (volume level) to work with iRule, but presumably this can be done as well.
post #1305 of 1408
<< http://www.blufans.com/discreport-2021.html >>
[/SIZE]
Another link for better understanding of this HiVi disc from Japan .

Larry
post #1306 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Ng View Post

<< http://www.blufans.com/discreport-2021.html >>
[/SIZE]
Another link for better understanding of this HiVi disc from Japan .
Larry
Larry , that is actually a Chinese web page posting Japanese media info.
post #1307 of 1408
"Larry , that is actually a Chinese web page posting Japanese media info."

Yes , just to show briefly the content of this disc and that it is with English Menu , following being appropriate link for order inquiry ;

<< http://www.hivicast.jp/detail/shvc_00_en.html >>

One member got a quote that it costs him @USD 150 inclusive of freight to US .

Larry
post #1308 of 1408
Yep, I bought the disc..waiting for delivery.
post #1309 of 1408
I receiced the Disc...Still mix emotions..Everything is in Japanese, the support booklet also...Very disappointing. Seems to be interesting...There are English subtitles...More later...
post #1310 of 1408
Guys, I am planing to link the Trinnov to modified OPPO. Any feedback will be appreciated...I understand that OPPO 103 comes with 4xS/PDIF upgrade and seperate 3G SDI which if I understand correctly is a video upgrade...is it really necessary?
post #1311 of 1408
Oppo 103 comes with optional 4 Toslink output directly from Oppo?

Also, have you gotten the Trinnov to communicate with the Mach IV (RS232)?
post #1312 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post

Guys, I am planing to link the Trinnov to modified OPPO. Any feedback will be appreciated...I understand that OPPO 103 comes with 4xS/PDIF upgrade and seperate 3G SDI which if I understand correctly is a video upgrade...is it really necessary?

If you are looking at the Vanity93 (or lite) digi out board, you are resticted to an Oppo 93. I am not aware of a board for the 103.
post #1313 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Also, have you gotten the Trinnov to communicate with the Mach IV (RS232)?

A direct link between the 2 seems like a stretch. The best you can do is control both devices through iRule and create a panel that combines commands.
post #1314 of 1408
Curt has told me that another user is working on such a link so they can talk. Hope so.
post #1315 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Curt has told me that another user is working on such a link so they can talk. Hope so.

Makes no sense. The ADA has only one RS232 port. How can you send an RS232 command into the ADA from your RS232 controller and then have the ADA pass on an RS232 command to the Trinnov?
post #1316 of 1408
Perhaps Curt could chime in but I think he is using an outboard ADA bus or something. I just can't recall the details.
post #1317 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Perhaps Curt could chime in but I think he is using an outboard ADA bus or something. I just can't recall the details.

Interesting. If you connect the ADA Bus output to the Trinnov RS232 input with some special adaptor cable, AND you can somehow translate the ADA bus protocol commands to RS232 I guess it can be done (and this is probably how it is done with ADA - TEQ integration. However, I don't see where the protocol translation would take place if you wanted to do this yourself without getting into the guts of the ADA.

Controlling both separately and creating an integrated iRule panel seems a lot easier to me.
post #1318 of 1408
Presently I have engaged the TEQ in ADA and control the volume through Trinnov using remote access via VNC (Android device). Works well.
JVB is offering OPPO 103 upgrade via 4xS/PDIFs and assured that the signal will be 8 channels digital. No Vanity needed....
I was wondering if somebody had any experience with improvement in the SQ?
post #1319 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post

Presently I have engaged the TEQ in ADA and control the volume through Trinnov using remote access via VNC (Android device). Works well.
JVB is offering OPPO 103 upgrade via 4xS/PDIFs and assured that the signal will be 8 channels digital. No Vanity needed....
I was wondering if somebody had any experience with improvement in the SQ?

JVB is selling the Vanity93 board for the Oppo 93.

I noticed they indeed also sell a 4 x S/PDIF mod for the 103 - depicted as 4 x RCA connectors. This will probably pass through the PCM signal from the internal Oppo digital board, much like the vanity lite. May be good enough for an Blu Ray application.

I will stay away from it, since my main source is SACD and the Vanity93 board will reclock and do custom DSD conversion.
Edited by edorr - 1/7/13 at 5:03pm
post #1320 of 1408
Thread Starter 
Gents,

As interesting as this conversation is regarding the Trinnov MC- series and modded Oppo players- could you move it to its own thread? Since the MC is not the ADA TEQ, is doesn't quite integrate the same with ADA processors and as-such talk about that could confuse readers that lurk about the ADA vs Trinnov products.

Case in point: Turning TEQ on in the ADA processor is intended for the ADA Bus connection between the Rhapsody/Suite 7.1HD and TEQ devices to have one volume control command (no need to have separate TEQ commands). An MC is going to behave in a slightly different manner in that case, and needs to be setup differently (than the TEQ/ADA Bus setup).

I do feel that it is quite valuable to have a dedicated thread about the Trinnov devices (MC series in particular), especially where a contrast can be made from the MCs and TEQs and what benefits/drawbacks there may be to either device.

On a different note, I have recently seen some of the upcoming features of the new "Dolby" card for the Datasat; and it will prove to be quite a feature-rich device once these start shipping. Unfortunately, I don't know when that will be- perhaps an announcement will come from Vegas this week...

Dan
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