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Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 47

post #1381 of 1408
I downloaded the trial version of the 2ch dirac for my mac. With this i should very closely be able turn all processing off on 2ch audio on prepro. I should get an idea with my favorite songs whether or not I prefer dirac, audyssey, or audyssey (subwoofer only, which is how i do 2 channel now).

It will likely take some time back going back and forth to get a good idea of the necessity for dirac for my listening preference.

With trinnov i dont have a home audition option. I could run trinnov with my existing avr (marantz 8801) and still get a lot of the benefits i imagine. I would just have to bite the bullet based on forum recommendations (which i do routinely, so this doesnt bother me).

It is the 2channel performance of the marantz 8801 which could be better ... That's where the processor upgrade to a datasat would make the most difference. I get movies AND great 2ch audio all in one package. For 20k i have great 2 ch audio and dirac all in one setup.

The upside of the trinnov (like the 32 channel) is that I can use it with any processor I want down the line. This assumes that trinnov doesnt make some awesome new device...
post #1382 of 1408
you mean like the Trinnov Altitude32
post #1383 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

I downloaded the trial version of the 2ch dirac for my mac. With this i should very closely be able turn all processing off on 2ch audio on prepro. I should get an idea with my favorite songs whether or not I prefer dirac, audyssey, or audyssey (subwoofer only, which is how i do 2 channel now).....It will likely take some time back going back and forth to get a good idea of the necessity for dirac for my listening preference.
Like Trinnov, Dirac is a very full-featured RC product. Take the time to learn, and use, all of its features and user adjustments before you form an opinion as regards comparison to Audyssey.
Quote:
With trinnov i dont have a home audition option
Maybe, maybe not. Jeff (The Bland), Lon (LJG) and others have enjoyed that option, as did I. You probably could, too, if you're seriously interested in the product.
Quote:
The upside of the trinnov (like the 32 channel) is that I can use it with any processor I want down the line.
Yup. And remappiing.
post #1384 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Clarify the mod for the oppo if you would please

One that adds 3xS/PDIF or 4xS/PDIF outputs.  See JVB or AudioPraise.

post #1385 of 1408
Guys, I still don't understand why people don't consider HTPC (custom built) with Trinnov. I had the system for nearly 2 years and I cannot imagine any better sonic. The new SW update delivers 24 bit 192 kHz sound.
I live in Australia and Datasat is extremely expensive. Trinnov MS with 16 digital/ analogue inputs/ outputs cost me half of the price of Datasat (without DIRAC).
With HTPC you can watch movies, play music and games. Modified OPPO can cost about half of Good HTPC but is very limited for what you can use it.
I don't have a lot of sources so Trinnov is more than enough for my purpose. The only limitation for Trinnov at this stage is AURO 3D but I hope it would be addressed with the forthcoming Altitude.
post #1386 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post

Guys, I still don't understand why people don't consider HTPC (custom built) with Trinnov. I had the system for nearly 2 years and I cannot imagine any better sonic.

Depending on your application and functionality needs one argument could be cost. Once you've gone through the hassle of getting a HTPC operational, you could run Dirac live on it and run it into an exasound MCH DAC. More limited than the trinnov route for sure, but a fraction of the cost. I am making the assumption here that the Exasound DACs are of the same caliber as the Trinnov DACs, and in a basic 5.1 system Dirac DRC results will be comparable with Trinnov.
post #1387 of 1408
Htpc still are terrible in terms of integration witn home systems. We often want a clean interface.

I also cant stand microsoft windows ...
post #1388 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

It is the 2channel performance of the marantz 8801 which could be better ... That's where the processor upgrade to a datasat would make the most difference.

For 2 ch you don't need a processor w/Trinnov, just set up a profile for 2 ch input and as many output channels as you want; I've read of excellent results using remapping with 2 ch input.
post #1389 of 1408
Thread Starter 
I can attest to that previous statement- though our Trinnov is inseparable from our processor.

I'd just like to add that every time I think this thread is dead….it comes back to life #walking dead.

Dan
post #1390 of 1408
" I am making the assumption here that the Exasound DACs are of the same caliber as the Trinnov DACs"

I am using RME DSP AES 32 sound card which I understand was used in the first generation Trinnov.


"Htpc still are terrible in terms of integration witn home systems. We often want a clean interface.

I also cant stand microsoft windows ..."

I have no troubles with the integration of the HTPC. I am using J River with ASIO driver which is supported by the RME card. I am using the Digital inputs of Trinnov trying to avoid as much conversion as possible...I undesrstand this is what ADA is doing with Cinema Refference. Mind you, it didn't cost me $ 40,000!

I had ADA Rhapsody and compaired the sound from BD via ADA to Trinnov and from the HTPC directly to Trinnov. HTPC won hands down...no comparison. The sound is much clearer and detailed. Mind you Rhapsody is a great Processor but I sold it since I had no need of any processing.
post #1391 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

But the secret sauce is the remapping which is not a part of DIRAC. That to me, as I have on e in my theater, is the game changer.
do you mind explaining more about how you feel the remapping function improves your sound over other EQ methods or point me to where you have discussed the benefits of this in your room over other room eq systems
post #1392 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewa View Post


do you mind explaining more about how you feel the remapping function improves your sound over other EQ methods or point me to where you have discussed the benefits of this in your room over other room eq systems

 

The most important aspect to understand is that Trinnov Remapping is not an EQ method, but rather a patented method implemented to reproduce the original, intended spatial image- to accurately reproduce the localization of sounds in our listening environment. 

 

May I suggest you start with a description of Trinnov Remapping, which can be found here:

 

http://www.trinnov.com/technologies/loudspeaker-room-optimization/remapping/

 

Essentially, remapping is a "mathematical acoustical transform" of the original mix to the listener's room.  In order for Remapping to work, there are extensive details collected by the microphone about the room.  In addition to the traditional multi-point measurement, there is a reference measurement that localizes where your loudspeakers are actually positioned in your room.  Based on the gathered information, the intended acoustic image is reproduced in your space.  

 

Here's an image the actual data collected by a Trinnov in a 13.2 system. 

 

 

 

 

 

Note the columns represent speaker identification number, Measured Radius, Elevation, and Azimuth (angle).  

Positions of speakers may also be represented graphically, as seen here.

X, y axis in degrees. Green represents 5.1 source (source options provided for all current media)

 

 

 

Here's the microphone used to gather the data.

The common observation from Trinnov users is that the speakers disappear, replaced by a seamless full acoustic image.

 

Cheers,


Edited by Curt_Trinnov - 3/7/14 at 8:39am
post #1393 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

 

Here's an image the actual data collected by a Trinnov in a 13.2 system. 







Note the columns represent speaker identification number, Measured Radius, Elevation, and Azimuth (angle).  
Positions of speakers may also be represented graphically, as seen here.
X, y axis in degrees. Green represents 5.1 source (source options provided for all current media)





Here's the microphone used to gather the data.


The common observation from Trinnov users is that the speakers disappear, replaced by a seamless full acoustic image.



Cheers,


biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif, those images are burned into my memory forever. One really needs to demo the Trinnov to begin to understand the tools available.
post #1394 of 1408
and Curt's "Details" (top) image doesn't show Crest Factor and other, additional info available with a scroll to the right.....
post #1395 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

and Curt's "Details" (top) image doesn't show Crest Factor and other, additional info available with a scroll to the right.....

 

Here you go...

 

post #1396 of 1408
Curt,

I see from the chart that the Trinnov unit can time align the subs separately. Can it apply equalization to multiple subs as one entity rather than individually? I have 4 subs that are placed almost equidistant from the main listening position. With all 4 subs playing the bass balance at all of my 7 seats is nearly equal suggesting that a mild eq curve is all that is needed. However, if you were to measure and correct each individual sub then much more "radical" eq would be needed.

So in my case I'd like it if the Trinnov could separately time align each sub but use the combined sub output for eq adjustment, is that possible?

thanks,
Asher
post #1397 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

So in my case I'd like it if the Trinnov could separately time align each sub but use the combined sub output for eq adjustment, is that possible?

I'm pretty sure it won't. (I chain my five subs into a single mono sub after time aligning them using the dsp functionality in their amps.) Maybe Curt can give us that in a later software update? Seems like we ought to be able to "group" subs into "mono collections" that get independently equalized.
post #1398 of 1408
I think the grouping of the subs can be done. You just put in settings 2 subs, instead 4 and you chain 2 subs together. The only trouble is that the subs should be same quality. I use SVS PC 13 Ultra and Paradigm Sub 1. I get flat response but Anthem feels a bit punchier and SVS is a bit lost on the background...
post #1399 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post

I think the grouping of the subs can be done. You just put in settings 2 subs, instead 4 and you chain 2 subs together.

Maybe that would work, but I don't think so. That would allow you to use multiple subs for each group as "Stereo subs", but I believe in that configuration Trinnov would still time align and correct each sub individually.

I believe that Trinnov time aligns and then corrects each output channel separately, except for when active crossovers are introduced, in which case it corrects the overall (post crossovers) speaker. Given that, maybe connect two (or more) subs as a single mono channel by using the active crossover functionality, but choose crossover settings that run both subs full range? You'd time align in the crossover page. This should work because the crossovers don't force the high pass and low pass to be symmetric or to match. In fact, you can even set no filter as an active crossover.

Curt will need to weigh in, but I suspect that will work.
Edited by Brucemck2 - 3/17/14 at 7:53pm
post #1400 of 1408
It shouldn't be all that hard to implement given the overall processing power of the units. Anyway, we'll wait and see what Curt has to say...
post #1401 of 1408
I have 4 Seatons on the front wall all calibrated as one sub using one output of the MC (split 4 ways). The rear Seaton has it's own Trinnov calibration. Perhaps not 'ideal' but Mark felt for subs, this is the way he designed my set up.
post #1402 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

I believe that Trinnov time aligns and then corrects each output channel separately, except for when active crossovers are introduced, in which case it corrects the overall (post crossovers) speaker. Given that, maybe connect two (or more) subs as a single mono channel by using the active crossover functionality, but choose crossover settings that run both subs full range? You'd time align in the crossover page. This should work because the crossovers don't force the high pass and low pass to be symmetric or to match. In fact, you can even set no filter as an active crossover.

Curt will need to weigh in, but I suspect that will work.

 

Brucemck2 is correct.  You have many ways to manage multiple subs.  Here are two examples.

 

1) Given you have enough Trinnov outputs for all subs, they may be individually measured and calibrated from as many seats (points) as desired.   If desired, they may then be organized in groups up to 4 each using the crossover function, which automatically measures and sets level and delay for each.  The measurement provides user with impulse and level measurement overlays which can then be used for manual fine tuning if desired.  The groups or individual subs are then calibrated as part of the whole system.

 

2) Given if one has limited Trinnov channels for all subs, one can perform the above steps to get the data, then identify which subs can be optimally be daisy-chained to the Trinnov output(s), configure the system accordingly, and then proceed with system calibration.

 

Cheers,


Edited by Curt_Trinnov - 3/18/14 at 12:19pm
post #1403 of 1408
Thread Starter 
That is what we did with the 8 subs in our room. There are 2 groups that are joined pairs signal-wise and the other 4 are independent.
post #1404 of 1408
Curt, I thought the crossovers can be used ONLY for active speakers? Can it be used for NON Active speakers as well?
post #1405 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post

Curt, I thought the crossovers can be used ONLY for active speakers? Can it be used for NON Active speakers as well?

Instead of thinking about them as "active crossovers", think of them as "a collection of up to four speakers that can be (a) time and (b) level aligned individually and (c) high/low/no pass filtered, and then (d) corrected as a single unit". A four way active crossover is one special case of that; so is time and level aligning four subs individually and then correcting that set of four as a single mono channel.
post #1406 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

Instead of thinking about them as "active crossovers", think of them as "a collection of up to four speakers that can be (a) time and (b) level aligned individually and (c) high/low/no pass filtered, and then (d) corrected as a single unit". A four way active crossover is one special case of that; so is time and level aligning four subs individually and then correcting that set of four as a single mono channel.

That's good to know, thanks for the clarification. This is interesting. Wonder how much improvement could be had with just the individual sub time alignment. Right now the front pair are equidistant to the main seat as are the rear pair of subs, but there is a foot or 2 difference in distance comparing front to rear pair of subs. I don't even know if that is significant but I'd like my next product to be able to "fix" it anyway.
post #1407 of 1408
Having discovered the ability to "group subs into mono sub channels" via this thread, I gave it a try.

My subs have delay (and PEQ) capability built into their amps, so I don't need the active crossovers to do that for me, but, I tested them for that purpose and they work well.

What worked for me was to put each of four subs on their own sub channel, use the Trinnov measurement to get exact time and level settings, and then transfer those back to the sub amps. I could just as easily have transferred them back to the active crossovers page with four subs on the mono output subwoofer channel, which I tested and does work.

After that, I ran my overall measurement and calibration routines so that the Trinnov would be correcting a single mono subwoofer channel.
post #1408 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

Having discovered the ability to "group subs into mono sub channels" via this thread, I gave it a try.

My subs have delay (and PEQ) capability built into their amps, so I don't need the active crossovers to do that for me, but, I tested them for that purpose and they work well.

What worked for me was to put each of four subs on their own sub channel, use the Trinnov measurement to get exact time and level settings, and then transfer those back to the sub amps. I could just as easily have transferred them back to the active crossovers page with four subs on the mono output subwoofer channel, which I tested and does work.

After that, I ran my overall measurement and calibration routines so that the Trinnov would be correcting a single mono subwoofer channel.

One can also find individual sub delay and level by using the automated calibration routeine that is part of the crossover settings. After the measurement is run, the level and delay offsets are displayed, as well as graphs showing impulse alignment and individual responces. Both individual level and delay may be adjusted. A maximum of 4 subs per crossover may be aligned this way. After this is set, a global calibration of the combined subs may be run, measuring and correcting for their combined responce.

Cheers,
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