Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 15

It seems you're right; thanks.

Then my question remains to Dan about whether the "tonal" differences between Dirac and Trinnov could be lessened by tweaking the latter's target curve.

Excellent, thanks, Dan.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post21451895

I have really enjoyed this thread and am intrigued to learn more. I am going to have to go to a much cheaper alternative in the beginning but think I might save my money for one of these units.

But if I have 3 way speakers ,that are tri-amped, am I going to need 3 channels just for the one speaker?

I will be building my next set of speakers and was thinking of 3way designs for the L/C/R and 2 way for the rear channels. Then I would have four subs. SO 21 channels is what I would need?

Just trying to see what I would need to budget for and how many of my kids I will need to sell.J/K

Dan, it's a bit of an unfair question ... but ...

If you just play old fashioned redbook CD using an ordinary surround synthesis setting, does the Trinnov "you are inside the scene" quality you're observing still come through, and, does it help or hurt?

Very interesting thread!

Dan, you mentioned that you would compare the sound from the trinnov and dirac to your custom PEQ settings? I am a big fan of room correction, but my experience is that the best results are by doing just the minimum amount of correction needed. It seems that trinnov\\dirac does much more than the JBL Synthesis calibration for example.

You have done more than enough - I was just curious

I'm very interested in all this phase/time correction, but I have only used Audyssey XT32 w. installer kit, and it did not do a better job than manual measurements and PEQ's. But Trinnov/Dirac should be in a whole other league than Audyssey.

Doesnt Trinnov allow to specify, that it should only use PEQ filters when calibrating? It could be fun to compare the simple calibration to the "full blown" calibration with all features enabled.

The question for me is not about replicating adjustments, but how does the sound compare between the methods, and how do the SMAART measurements differ. Are the measured FR results same as you would achieve manually?

Curt, if I was using something like DSX wide or height channels, would I be able to specify where in a perfect/ideal 3d model I'd expect them to be so that Trinnov could map them properly?

In the case of JBL Synthesis SDEC-4500/Arcos, all the settings are active in real-time. Here is the sample user interface of ARCOS again:


The correction filters are on the white graph at the bottom. You can manipulate them and hear the effect in real-time. Reason for that is that the SDEC is general purpose DSP hardware. It is designed to manipulate N channels of audio simultaneously. The ARCOS software is a layer on top of that. When you change the settings in ARCOS, it changes the setting in the underlying software (London Architect) which results in immediate change in the sound.

Indeed, we have done these tweaks and they go very fast because you can hear what the effect is immediately.


The JBL Synthesis system comes as a two-way system that can accept input from 12 channels and output on 20. As part of design services JBL provides with this system, and working with a competent dealer, they will customize the SDEC-4500 firmware to handle 3-way speakers. Indeed, for our showroom we went past this, having the system correct for up to 40 channels ! This used another expansion box which interconnects with the SDEC-4500 simply using a single cat-5.

One way to keep the burden/size/power of all these channels down is to use the new Lexicon DD-8 multi-channel amp. It is designed primarily for high-end audio distribution but I am thinking about using it for bi-amping in my own theater: http://www.lexicon.com/Products/Details/13



You get 8 channels at 125 watts each in just one rack unit. Plenty for all of your surrounds and such. Since it uses the Harman "class I" (90% efficient switching amplifier), it is exceptionally efficient so it doesn't generate a lot of heat either.

Good Plug amirm! I have to admire your skill to get your product into a thread where it has no place being there.

Now that Lexicon has dumped the MP-20, it seems the only way to gain access to ARCOS is the SDEC. Although a great tool, one problem many users will have with the SDEC is that the end-user can never measure/calibrate the system him or herself; i.e. it is my understanding from your prior posts that the end user cannot purchase the necessary mics to measure the room. So every time an end-user makes a change to the system, he or she will be forced to contact the dealer (assuming the dealer is still around and has the mics, otherwise they will have to set it up through JBL) and the dealer will come in and charge a calibration fee. Although a good practice (having a professional do a calibration), for many end-users that is a non-starter. With Trinnov and Datasat they could run an auto-calibrate (which Dan spoke highly of) and compare the changes. Not only that but the end-user also has a sense of the house curve he or she likes and he or she could try and implement it after Trinnov or Datasat does its thing.

PS JapanDave is right, your post reads more like a poor attempt at advertising rather than discussing the matters at hand (Trinnov and Dirac Live).

Theta does not yet sell a Dirac product. The unit they showed at CES was a 2-ch system running at 48 kHz, but that is obviously not the final product. Not only will it handle more channels, I was told the sample rate of the Dirac may be 96 or 192 kHz depending on various issues yet to be resolved.

Dumped? Boy, you should get a job, running negative campaigns for politicians.


I am pretty sure Trinnov in this thread is the same. Dan, can you please confirm?


That is true but a good system gets the job done the first time. Since we set up our reference theater, we have felt no need to change it at all. You can have multiple settings programmed while the dealer/calibrator is there and then switch between them.

Keep in mind that you can seriously damage your system using any of these tools. Just because you have a graph and you can pull things up and down doesn't mean you should. Even dealers have damaged speakers using these systems.

That said, let me mention that if you work with a competent dealer that Harman trusts, you can have much more flexibility than this. Specifically, if someone falls in the serious enthusiast category and likes to play indefinitely, work with your dealer and arrangements can be made to accommodate it. We have done this in one occasion and are able to do it again if needed.


Compare what changes? And why won't you do this while your dealer is present?


If the process is slow, it can be time consuming as Dan mentioned. You can't possibly tell me in one breath that you like to mess with the system but then in the next breath say you are perfectly OK with a non-real-time system. This is why I say you can do this quickly with your dealer present. Many settings can be tried very quickly with JBL Synthesis.


If I thought you and Dave were honest judges of how these conversations go, I would lose some sleep but I hope you excuse me for not . That said, I finally got to hear Dirac again and this time it was a far better experience than what they did at CEDIA. This was at the Theta suite at CES so I can share my experience with that here.

They had it nicely set up and switched back and forth for me so I could hear with or without correct (Datasat folks would not do that at CEDIA). The system worked very well. No comparison to what Datasat had done at CEDIA. Despite the system being very high end, the improvements were apparent and considerable. The graph showed massive low frequency aberrations prior to correction as expected and resolving that showed that the system is a very capable room EQ.

I also sat through the demo of the software. It was very simple to use. I shot a video of it that I will upload later to WBF.

The hardware option is due to ship in April I think.

As they rightly said, it is the best $4K you can spend to improve the sound of your system. If you have a Theta processor, it is a must have upgrade in my opinion.

Here is a shot of the suite. More later on WBF:



And terrible shot of the PC running the software:

Hmm ...

Every time that you double the sample rate the DSP burden quadruples. If I squint really hard I can imagine the THETA implementation of Dirac Live running at 96kHz but my imagination is not good enought for 192kHz.

What Amir saw was the filter creation software for the new 'lightweight' Dirac Live runtime that Dirac Research will be rolling out soon. The new runtime puts less demand on DSPs but is different from what is in the Datasat RS20i. The new software runs as well on MAC as it does on Windows (all flavors). It's a good product!
____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Everything is in real-time. ARCOS is just a smart front-end to the BSS London Architect that is itself a real-time, general purpose real-time DSP platform. As you make changes in ARCOS, they get reflected in the London Architect and they immediately become part of the pipeline.

In addition to the filters that ARCOS programs, BSS has a set of general purpose filters which you can also modify. They site past the ones used for Room EQ and act like secondary controls. They also work in real-time.


There was a reason for that. They were showing the wonderful new M106 units that replace the M22. At $1,700, they just sound amazing ($500 cheaper than the M22s they replace yet they sound much better and the M22 was already great). I must have spent 15 minutes in there myself .


Indeed. I had meetings and only two days for the whole show. Did the main hall one day and the Venetian the second.

Just finished posting my pictures. Boy, my fingers hurt!

Video: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...nd-Impressions
Audio: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...Picture-Thread

I'm just repeating what John Baloff explained. It is true that the 192 kHz option is not a sure thing at this point, but it is a goal. He did not describe the new DSP board except to say it is a joint custom design by MDS, Dirac, and Theta (ATI), and will be built only by ATI. He mentioned it uses a more efficient Dirac filter design, so I have no basis to doubt it will run at least 96 kHz. (We all know 192 kHz is just unjustified pandering anyway and not worth the extra effort, cost, and indeed heat. )

Thank goodness for that!!! Or, your inscrutable plug for the JBL synthesis EQ system would be a non starter. So, Keep up that one sided logic that keeps your boat afloat amirm.

Dan with this post and the shot you took at Theta about 48khz, I am beginning to think you may be a bit biased.

How about Datasat? Will it do Dirac live at 192khz at some future point? Can it do 192khz with Dirac live? I assume right now that nothing currently on the market as far as pre/pros can run 192khz native?

Wow, great news! This may benefit the B&K brand as well.