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Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! - Page 17

post #481 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Well, after talking to Jeff yesterday (who will probably also fly-in), it seems that we'd be better suited to do it in the afternoon/evening. For anyone that is considering coming-in from out of state for this; there is a Holiday Inn and a Hampton Inn right down the street.

Dan, appreciate you letting me know but that timing wont work for me as it would mean two extra nights of being away...we will arrange another time when I am Chicago...

Thanks for letting me know...
post #482 of 1408
Appreciate you hosting this.

I will be able to stay until around 7:15pm ... have a binding commitment the following morning so I will have to fly out Saturday night. Will book a late afternoon arrival.

Bruce
post #483 of 1408
Thread Starter 
Wow, Bruce- whirlwind visit! I hope you don't have to travel too far.

Dan
post #484 of 1408
So, I just reread this entire thread. iIve been following since the beginning, but I wanted a refresher. I have a couple of questions. Is the Datasat available only with single ended connections, or is balanced an option? All my amps, etc. are balanced. What is the pricing? When will it be available? I hope to be able to attend this weekends demo, but if I can't. I hope that everybody will post their impressions. Kudos to Dan for putting all his time and energy into a difficult and fascinating comparison.

Thanks,
David
post #485 of 1408
The datasat is balanced stock, it just doesn't use the normal XLR plugs. You need to buy a breakout cable from that vintage printer connector (db25?) to XLR cables.
post #486 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

The datasat is balanced stock, it just doesn't use the normal XLR plugs. You need to buy a breakout cable from that vintage printer connector (db25?) to XLR cables.

I think the RS20i does not require the breakout cables, it is a consumer version after all (and if it does require them I would be surprised if it does not include them).
post #487 of 1408
I suppose they could add XLRs, but this picture from an alleged brochure does not show them.


LL
post #488 of 1408
Thread Starter 
first posts of the thread show the back of the RS20i. DB25 breakouts requires for XLR, unbalanced, or AES outputs. 16 channels.

Dan
post #489 of 1408
That's an interesting decision. Considering their market segment they must include the breakout cable, especially considering the cable is not sold at your local audio store (or pro store for that matter since their wiring configuration is not very common in pro products either).
post #490 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

That's an interesting decision. Considering their market segment they must include the breakout cable, especially considering the cable is not sold at your local audio store (or pro store for that matter since their wiring configuration is not very common in pro products either).

The DB Connection 'wiring standard' is in fact one set by Dolby a long time ago in the commercial Cinema market. For commercial Cinema and installer serviced markets these connections are considered industry standard and desirable. And if you think about it, there just isn't enough room for 32 balanced (ie: 2 x 16 XLR INs & OUTs), 32 unbalanced (ie: 2 x 16 INs & OUTs) and another 16 digital XLRs (2 x 16 AES/EBU INs & OUTs) on that back of that box. The box would be huge! The DB connections are far more space efficient.
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #491 of 1408
Thread Starter 
David, the info I've been given is that MSRP will be 16k or 16.5k, not specific yet. Unsure as to what's included, but all outputs are XLR. Dealer network is not in place yet, though it is being built. I've been told that March-ish is the time frame for the RS20i, though that may not have the Dolby advanced decoding unlocked by then (licensing is being worked-out currently, since the two companies compete in the commercial space).

That's the best info I can give you at the moment.

Dan
post #492 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

The DB Connection 'wiring standard' is in fact one set by Dolby a long time ago in the commercial Cinema market. For commercial Cinema and installer serviced markets these connections are considered industry standard and desirable. And if you think about it, there just isn't enough room for 32 balanced (ie: 2 x 16 XLR INs & OUTs), 32 unbalanced (ie: 2 x 16 INs & OUTs) and another 32 digital XLRs (2 x 16 AES/EBU INs & OUTs) on that back of that box. The box would be huge! The DB connections are far more space efficient.

To be honest I prefer it for the reasons you state (i.e. much smaller form factor), my preamp for my stereo also has breakout cables. However, the consumer market does not always adopt what is best (e.g. RCA connectors, banana plugs, [or the recent favorite whipping boy, HDMI] etc.) As to the standard used, I would have thought DB wiring standard that is used for commercial Cinema is far less used than some of the DB configurations used in Pro audio. At least it seems a lot easier for me to find other configurations in Pro audio than the Dolby configuration for commercial Cinemas. Maybe I just look in the wrong places (I very rarely look at stores that specialize in Cinema products).
post #493 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

To be honest I prefer it for the reasons you state (i.e. much smaller form factor), my preamp for my stereo also has breakout cables. However, the consumer market does not always adopt what is best (e.g. RCA connectors, banana plugs, [or the recent favorite whipping boy, HDMI] etc.) As to the standard used, I would have thought DB wiring standard that is used for commercial Cinema is far less used than some of the DB configurations used in Pro audio. At least it seems a lot easier for me to find other configurations in Pro audio than the Dolby configuration for commercial Cinemas. Maybe I just look in the wrong places (I very rarely look at stores that specialize in Cinema products).

You are right, Cinema standard cables are in short supply but that has more to do with the nature of the application. The required cable length varies from job to job as often does the far end terminations. Contractors that bid on jobs always figure in the cost of custom building the cables. I am not aware of any vendor that stocks them. Building them on demand is a nuisance but not hard at all to do.

That being said, I know that Datasat has plans of stocking their version of standard breakout cables for the RS20i.
____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #494 of 1408
Thread Starter 
Whirlwind gets my strong recommendation.

Dan
post #495 of 1408
Some of you may want to see my short interview at CES with Hometheater.com:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoY-K7LXxvo

Cheers-
post #496 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Some of you may want to see my short interview at CES with Hometheater.com:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoY-K7LXxvo

Cheers-

It's nice to be able to put a face to the voice. Wow, you are tall!

I've put some Trinnov impressions in the Trinnov thread rather than hijacking this one.
post #497 of 1408
Thread Starter 
We have a schedule for this Saturday:

Earliest arrival 1PM

we'll do some casual listening, etc. depending on how many people are there by 2 we may even run one series.

4PM comparison series run; I'm going to select some music and move tracks to play and people can take notes of characteristics they hear, then we'll switch processors and replay the same selections with time to take more notes. When we're done we can discuss what we've heard, and perhaps tally preferences to see which system is preferred by "the masses".

I'll also be able to show folks the different systems either through VNC or I may even connect the outboard monitor to the TEQ for visibility sake.

Anyway, Bruce appears to be the one traveling the farthest, so I'm making some provisions for him and his schedule.

Figure 1 till - whenever I have to kick you out.

Dan

It will help to get confirmation of who'll be there- just post here is fine. For those that do not have the address, I'll PM. let me know

Dan
post #498 of 1408
I should arrive at the session around 2pm, assuming the Gods of O'Hare don't intervene
post #499 of 1408
Thread Starter 
Well, after yet another late night of tuning; we are ready to rock-and-roll!

Dan
post #500 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Well, after yet another late night of tuning; we are ready to rock-and-roll!

Dan

Dan, good luck and have fun with the "shootout." Opportunity like this doesn't come often - compare and contrast some top-notch gears set up by an experienced/sensible professional.

Wish I could be there!
post #501 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

I should arrive at the session around 2pm, assuming the Gods of O'Hare don't intervene

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Well, after yet another late night of tuning; we are ready to rock-and-roll!

Dan

It will be fun to catch up an play with all the toys this afternoon. See you soon!
post #502 of 1408
Thank you folks- looking forward to your feedback

post #503 of 1408
Thread Starter 
Well, I think things went well overall. We had Brucemck2 and Mark Seaton, as well as one of my local clients come-in and give a listen.

I need to make a quick apology to Bruce; after he left Mark and I figured-out something that was giving me fits regarding the Datasat, and so the bass was much better after Bruce had already left for the airport unfortunately. Beyond that, I'll let the guys post their impressions before I post my impressions and experiences with each device.

Dan
post #504 of 1408
First, a huge thank you for arranging the shootout.

Some impressions ....

The Datasat has a really nice, warm, tone. It reminded me a bit of the warmth of a great single ended triode amp (like a Lamm or a VTL750 in triode mode). At the shootout I said it had a tone more like a big VTL running in triode mode than a big Halcro amp. This warmth of tone, to my ears, is not being accomplished by inserting an artificial veiling or any lack of transparency (giant VTL amps running in triode mode are intensely transparent); the Dataset is incredibly transparent. The Datasat did a really nice job with two channel Redbook CD source material, where densely layered instruments, voices, and acoustic spaces were very clearly delineated; it did a great job pulling apart tonally dense material.

The Trinnov was, for me, more involving. It had less of the lushness of tone of the Datasat. In that way, it had a tonal signature more like a big Halcro amp than a Lamm SET amp. But, it had terrific imaging and generated a very nice sense of space. In this way, it had more of the imaging and sense of space of the great tube amps mentioned above. On movie clips the steering was both less obvious (less "I hear those footsteps in the back left surround") and more pronounced (there was a greater sense of being in a different front to side and side to rear acoustic venue.)

The Trinnov did a very nice job with two channel Redbook material. It lacked the lushness of tone of the Datasat (that SET quality), and didn't "tonally delineate" some of the closely stacked instruments as well, but it created a much richer front to back and side to side soundstage (spatial delineations) that the Datasat did not.

For lack of better language I'd say the Dataset is more tonally transparent and dimensional (notes are more clearly delineated), while the Trinnov is more spatially transparent and dimensional (spaces are more clearly delineated). That being said, both have very nice tone and imaging; both are audiophile worthy devices.

Neither device has a simple Audyssey-like user interface; either device will be best set up by an experienced professional. That being said, many of the screens on the Trinnov user interface will be familiar to folks that have worked their way through Tact and DEQX gear.

On a side note, the picture quality, sonics, and comfort factors were spectacular. It's rare to get that "better than the cinema" sense of involvement.
post #505 of 1408
For those involved, thank you for a good read,...interesting.

Having stuck around the Conrad in Indianapolis for demo after demo, from flat target curve/time domain issues, to a much more balanced, warm and listen-able system. I distinctly remember the characteristic transparency seemed not to be an issue. As I recall, I likely took in more front-center/money seat time than anyone. The lively room necessitated as near-field a listen as I could muster. All said, without any immediate comparison, it's difficult to say anything other than there were no apparent sonic issues. When combined with the rich feature set, seems attractive to me.

Looking forward to Mark's and other's further impressions.

Thanks for sharing
post #506 of 1408
Bruce, thanks for the report.

Are these differences related more to the DACs/analog stages than the EQ? Did anyone compare the sound with the EQs bypassed? Did anyone compare these EQs to each other, or to the manual PEQ in terms of what EQs bring to the table wrt spectral smoothness and balance?
post #507 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Bruce, thanks for the report.

Are these differences related more to the DACs/analog stages than the EQ? Did anyone compare the sound with the EQs bypassed? Did anyone compare these EQs to each other, or to the manual PEQ in terms of what EQs bring to the table wrt spectral smoothness and balance?

I'm thinking it's a little of both and it would be nice to get answers to those other questions.
post #508 of 1408
We didn't do any bypass or "hardware only" listening during my sessions. You'll have to ask Dan about that.

The spatial qualities I heard almost certainly had to be a result of the processing/math differences rather than the dacs, etc. hardware chain differences.

I did see several overlay curves showing the post processing frequency response of the Datasat and the Trinnov, measured at the chair I was sitting in, and was surprised by how closely they'd been calibrated.
post #509 of 1408
One other question I would like answered is whether there is / was a clear winner or whether, as I suspect is the case, that both are very capable units and that absent a "side-by-side" comparison the end user would be extremely happy with either...

Thanks...
post #510 of 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelc View Post

One other question I would like answered is whether there is / was a clear winner or whether, as I suspect is the case, that both are very capable units and that absent a "side-by-side" comparison the end user would be extremely happy with either...

Thanks...

I can't speak for the others, but ...

In the absence of doing the shootout I would have been extremely happy with either. Both are terrific.

But having heard both, for me, and admitting up front that I am an "imaging freak", the Trinnov was the clear winner
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AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!!