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Vegas Pro 11 released - Page 3

post #61 of 564
Thread Starter 
I have the same experience. If you have a very strong CPU, it will need an even stronger GPU to add additional value. With my i7 2600K I have seen an significant inrease in render time if I activate CUDA with my weak Quadro 2000D - but I have also seen a significant decrease in render time wehn I enable CUDA with my GTX 570.

So what people tend to oversee is that the result of CUDA will also depend on the GPU:CPU power, on the full hardware like PCIe type (2.0 and X8 or X16).
post #62 of 564
So, I suppose if I want to be sure to do better, upgrade to a GTX590 right? Supposed to be the top gun right now for GPU power. I had also planned to upgrade the CPU to an i7 990 with faster and double ram.

BTW- I went out and shot some 3D today at 24p native with the TD10's. Just some test clips with pans tilts and zoom. I'm in the middle of rendering a long timeline in Vegas now so it may be a day or two before I can evaluate it in my workflow. I did notice that the LCD screen on the TD10 was not very smooth in 24p especially for the tilts. Believe it or not, this is the first time I ever shot in 24p with the TD10's for 3D.
post #63 of 564
Thread Starter 
How do you shoot with the TD10 in 3D 1080 24p?
post #64 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

So, I suppose if I want to be sure to do better, upgrade to a GTX590 right? Supposed to be the top gun right now for GPU power. I had also planned to upgrade the CPU to an i7 990 with faster and double ram.

BTW- I went out and shot some 3D today at 24p native with the TD10's. Just some test clips with pans tilts and zoom. I'm in the middle of rendering a long timeline in Vegas now so it may be a day or two before I can evaluate it in my workflow. I did notice that the LCD screen on the TD10 was not very smooth in 24p especially for the tilts. Believe it or not, this is the first time I ever shot in 24p with the TD10's for 3D.

The extra expense and power consumption for the top GPU cards does not always translate into faster performance for non-game type software uses.

Although there are more processing elements in the more expensive cards, they may be under-utilized by the software. The table shown below was taken from the following thread:
http://forums.adobe.com/message/3662125

Athough the GTX580 has 3x the number of cuda cores of the GTX550Ti, the render timeline for Adobe was only 15% faster for the video card that costs 3x as much. The 550Ti is well utilized by this operation, while the 580 is not. The 580 does a lot better for video games though.

The 550Ti does well since it has a fast CPU clock and high effective memory bandwidth. Raw capability does not always translate into improved performance for a particular application. For the comparison of raw GPU capabilities, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...ocessing_units

The GTX590, which is essentially two GTX580s on the same board, would only perform better at this task than the single chip GTX580 if the software was specifically programmed to take advantage of the extra processing power.

If you have several graphics cards to compare, please make and share a tabulation of the performance with SVP11.

Table for Adobe CS5.5 - April 2011 benchmarks
post #65 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

How do you shoot with the TD10 in 3D 1080 24p?

Maybe he used 2 of them?
post #66 of 564
Yes I think so, with 2 TD10 and LANC remote :
- cheaper than HXR-NX3D1
- interaxis > 30mm
but need to work with L and R as usual.

Not a bad idea !
post #67 of 564
Yes, that's Don's dual TD10 system. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.
post #68 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

How do you shoot with the TD10 in 3D 1080 24p?

Twin TD-10's in 2D, pair the files in Vegas

Joe- this was just a test in my backyard to determine how I will shoot my next fireworks performance at the Magic Kingdom in a few weeks. You won't be seeing any of these test clips. Part of my testing is how easy I will be able to travel for the day with the rig. Lots of planning. I learned that Guest relations has a storage locker I can rent for $7 a day that will just be big enough to store my tripod and bench system as I don't plan to lug it around for the day.
LL
post #69 of 564
Richard- thanks for posting that. One thing computer builders should not forget is the fact that the GPU is not only about render time but with Vegas editing, also more power lends to better playback of multiple timeline for people who really edit. While my present system now can play a timeline at 29.97 fps and looks great, when I hit two MVC clips with effects and transitions or titles with motion, it slows to a crawl. More GPU power should help. But I have to wonder about the improvement of a 590 over a 580.
post #70 of 564
Thread Starter 
Thank you for the picture Don - yes that makes the point clear. Nice idea.
post #71 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Twin TD-10's in 2D, pair the files in Vegas

Joe- this was just a test in my backyard to determine how I will shoot my next fireworks performance at the Magic Kingdom in a few weeks. You won't be seeing any of these test clips. Part of my testing is how easy I will be able to travel for the day with the rig. Lots of planning. I learned that Guest relations has a storage locker I can rent for $7 a day that will just be big enough to store my tripod and bench system as I don't plan to lug it around for the day.

Great. I'm really looking forward to seeing your results.

I ordered a little jib the other day. It was only a couple of hundred bucks, but the reviews have been pretty good and the YouTube videos look fairly impressive. I think it might serve my needs for now. One of my requirements was that it be lightweight. It's only 9 pounds. I don't like the idea of carrying around a lot of weight, either.
post #72 of 564
Which one did you get?
post #73 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Which one did you get?

I got the 5 foot long, tiltable one from Glideshot. Total weight with counterbalances should be under 20 pounds, plus my other gear. Pretty heavy compared to what I'm used to, but I won't be using it all the time.

If you want to see a YouTube video of a really cute "tech babe" using the 4 foot version, see Olivia fly the jib here.
post #74 of 564
Thread Starter 
That looks really great!
post #75 of 564
Hey there guys, I know I need to spend time learning this program and take time etc., but that isn't me...I am getting lots of good footage though. Question, is the Vegas Pro Production Assistant 2 and Seminar Series worth it for the accelerated learning curve person? Or are they tools that the expert needs after he's learned for years? I've read the content, but wondering your thoughts please.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving,
Dan
post #76 of 564
Vasst has a nice set of products for expanding your editing skills in Vegas Pro. However the Vegas Pro Production Assistant 2 is mostly for those experienced editors who do similar workflow all the time and need to build an SOP, for example a news story editor would have similar work flow and needs to customize Vegas to streamline that work flow. Different from say a 3 camera interview program different from a documentary. I had templates for my TV shows that streamlined my work flow so repetitive editing tasks were set up fast.

I think what you are looking for is the DVD training video for beginners. It will get you up to speed on many of the basic functions in Vegas but you can always skip over those things that don't interest you. Maybe you never shoot multi-cam so why bother with that. Or, never do closed caption. But you do need to learn the different ways to add transitions, create mattes, add titles, etc. These beginning training DVD's are good quick starts.

This is what I recommend for all people who want to learn Vegas very fast- Once you complete these and want to do more VASST has other DVD's on the new additions such as editing 3D you can buy and in half a day be well on your way to working efficiently.

This won't teach you editing but rather Vegas Pro as a tool for editing. Editing is about story telling in time compression. for example, one of my exercises is to teach a new intern how to compress a 30 minute story into one minute. This is more about composition than working the software but editing video really requires both skills.
post #77 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post


I think what you are looking for is the DVD training video for beginners. It will get you up to speed on many of the basic functions in Vegas but you can always skip over those things that don't interest you.

This is what I recommend for all people who want to learn Vegas very fast- Once you complete these and want to do more VASST has other DVD's on the new additions such as editing 3D you can buy and in half a day be well on your way to working efficiently.

This won't teach you editing but rather Vegas Pro as a tool for editing.

Correct and perfect Don, Thank you.
post #78 of 564
1080 24p for 3D using 2 HDR TD10s:

I shot the test using the HDR TD10's in 2D 1080 24p then paired and did auto correct in Vegas. I did some pans left and right zooms and tilts up and down. Then I repeated the same sequence using 1080 60i I also did a test using 1080 24p with the image stabilizer active.

After I burned the three test clips to a blu Ray BD-RE at 1080 24p x 1920 25Mbs template in Vegas Pro I reviewed the three tests on my Sony VPL VW90ES projector. There was hardly any difference I could detect between the clips shot at 1080 60i and 1080 24p. The test clip of 1080 24p with optical stabilizer tended to blur more than the video with it shut off, confirming the suggestion that with twin camera shooting, optical stabilization can throw the cams out of sync slightly.

While, technically, we know that shooting in native 24p is better than shooting in 60i for a 1080 24p x 1920 Blu Ray rendering because there is no 2/3 pull down which has built in error. Visually, I had a hard time seeing the difference on the Sony Projector.

Using a copy of my older Vegas Pro 10e, the pull down conversion was quite jerky especially in the left right pan shots. It does seem that the newer latest version of Vegas Pro v11 build 425 is very good but shooting in 24p to begin with eliminates all potential conversion errors.

The test demonstrated there wasn't a dramatic difference between shooting in 24p vs. 60i converted to 24p by Vegas Pro when looking at scene motion on the Sony VPL VW90ES.

I repeated the viewing on my Vizio which is a 60 Hz passive panel. Both clips showed a dramatic increase in jerky motion overall when compared to the Sony Projector. The big difference here is that the Sony is a 240 Hz projector and the Vizio is a 60 hz panel. I can't say for certain there was a huge difference on the 60 Hz panel between the 60i conversion to 24p and the native 24p clips. Overall, if I had to put money on it, the most dramatic difference was the use of a 240 Hz monitor and that Sony Vegas Pro's 60i to 24p rendering conversion in v11 is now quite good. This last observation was a surprise to me and I was disappointed that I didn't see a significant difference to justify a huge expense in shooting native 24p. Instead, to be honest with myself, It has to be considered a mental comfort knowing that I have no conversion errors rather than actually seeing a difference. As for the cost of these 24p 3D camcorders, maybe the more prudent investment would be to just buy the 240 Hz monitor if you really want to see some improvement in the presentation.
post #79 of 564
Thread Starter 
Don, thank you for this important test. Interesting result I think.

Maybe we have to wait how the 1080 24p mode of a Z10000 will come out really, to make some more comparisons. Even if that may be hard for me with a PAL TD10 - this unit cannot use 24p in 2D, but only 25p.... what is an additional legitimation for me to acquire the Z10000. Beside all other good points like better manual controlls and so on.
post #80 of 564
Hello, thanks Don, I have a PAL TD10 too. I have not done any test yet with vegas 11 and TD10 rush.
post #81 of 564
Thread Starter 
Vegas imports the TD10 of pal footage fine. Conversion from 50i to 24p can be done in another way for pal footage then 60i footage - by slowing down the footage by 4% and deinterlacing.
post #82 of 564
Wolfgang this technic is not available online?
How can i interpret 50i footage as 48i in Vegas?
After that i can deinterlace of course.
But only speed change doesn't give the correct result what i want in Vegas.
post #83 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

The test demonstrated there wasn't a dramatic difference between shooting in 24p vs. 60i converted to 24p by Vegas Pro when looking at scene motion on the Sony VPL VW90ES.

I repeated the viewing on my Vizio which is a 60 Hz passive panel. Both clips showed a dramatic increase in jerky motion overall when compared to the Sony Projector. The big difference here is that the Sony is a 240 Hz projector and the Vizio is a 60 hz panel. I can't say for certain there was a huge difference on the 60 Hz panel between the 60i conversion to 24p and the native 24p clips. Overall, if I had to put money on it, the most dramatic difference was the use of a 240 Hz monitor and that Sony Vegas Pro's 60i to 24p rendering conversion in v11 is now quite good. This last observation was a surprise to me and I was disappointed that I didn't see a significant difference to justify a huge expense in shooting native 24p.

Two things: It's logical 24p isn't going to be better than 60i, since 60i is quite similar to 30p, which has more data per second than 24p. A 24p conversion has a built in jerkiness of motion due to the "pull down."

The passive-3D monitor at 60Hz is like comparing apples to oranges with a 240Hz active-3D shutter projector. LG has passive panels with better specs, including both 120Hz and 240Hz. Do you recall which Vizio model you're using?
post #84 of 564
Thread Starter 
Well, the articel is available online, but it is in German:

http://www.videoaktiv.de/20111104656...die-Augen.html

and it is not for free since I have sold that to this magazine. Do not know if you speak or can read German?
post #85 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

Well, the articel is available online, but it is in German:

http://www.videoaktiv.de/20111104656...die-Augen.html

and it is not for free since I have sold that to this magazine. Do not know if you speak or can read German?

I can say Haxenbauer and count to ten thousand.
post #86 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

Two things: It's logical 24p isn't going to be better than 60i, since 60i is quite similar to 30p, which has more data per second than 24p. A 24p conversion has a built in jerkiness of motion due to the "pull down."

The passive-3D monitor at 60Hz is like comparing apples to oranges with a 240Hz active-3D shutter projector. LG has passive panels with better specs, including both 120Hz and 240Hz. Do you recall which Vizio model you're using?

What I'm claiming is that with a 240 Hz monitor, the jerkiness is pretty much hidden. Same disk played on a 60 Hz monitor is obvious to the viewer. Worse is the fact that 24p native is also obviously visible on the 60 Hz monitor.

No argument in the theory that 30p has more frames per second than 24p. I do believe that with a 240 hz display, the difference is difficult to detect. And, the difference between a conversion and a native is very difficult to detect in both 240 Hz and 60 Hz. displays. Bottom line- there is a magic to 240 Hz displays when having to deal with 24p or 30p or 60i as it all looks good.

It is unfair to offer what may be available in displays in the future as a solution; when I bought this Vizio there was no LG 240Hz 32" 3D LCD panels being offered. I don't know that there are even today but maybe next year. A quick search shows that LG today has 240 Hz 47" panels but even their 32" models still are only 60 Hz.

Unfortunately, I have certain restrictions limiting my choices in selecting a monitor- In order of importance:
1. The obvious one is I can't buy what doesn't exist.
2. Must be 3D passive technology for the edit workstation. I can't work long hours wearing active shutter glasses due to eye fatigue.
3. Can't be bigger than 32" since bigger won't fit in my work space.

I did not list cost because I had a budget to spend 4 times what I paid for the Vizio so if I could have purchased a 240 Hz monitor last June in 32" passive 3D I would have.


Next year, if I can get a 240 Hz monitor to replace this Vizio, I will likely do that. The difference for either 24fps native or converted 60i to 24p is dramatic enough to justify the change.



On the 17th, weather permitting, I plan to shoot another fireworks performance using my twin TD10 rig in 1080 24p native. I think fireworks is the most challenging 3D subject to shoot in 3D. I know now that 24p will display on 240 Hz monitor fine. Not so fine on the 60 Hz monitor. But then neither does 60i. But once I leave the edit phase, I don't care how it looks on the 60 Hz monitor.
post #87 of 564
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

Two things: It's logical 24p isn't going to be better than 60i, since 60i is quite similar to 30p, which has more data per second than 24p. A 24p conversion has a built in jerkiness of motion due to the "pull down."

Well, it depends what you are looking for. If you look for smoother movements, it may be true that 50i/60i has a better movement resolution.

If you look into line resolution, 50i/60i will always loose compared with a progressive aqcuired format. Simply due to the interline flicker, what reduces your line resolution. Especially for footage with movement, but also with footage witout movement.

And the major advantage for 3D: 24p can be authored worldwide - so for PAL and NTSC - on 3D Blu Ray, without a quality reduction due to a conversion, without jerkiness at all. There is a possible conversin from 50i to 24p without a loot of quality loss, but the conversion from 60i to 24p is even harder. That is the reason why a lot of people look for a 3D camcorder like the Z10000 to be able to shoot in 1080 24p.

And we never ever can be sure what kind of display the customer is using. But 24p is a worldwide standard, you will find that today in every 3D HDTV today.
post #88 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

Well, it depends what you are looking for. If you look for smoother movements, it may be true that 50i/60i has a better movement resolution.

If you look into line resolution, 50i/60i will always loose compared with a progressive aqcuired format. Simply due to the interline flicker, what reduces your line resolution. Especially for footage with movement, but also with footage witout movement.

And the major advantage for 3D: 24p can be authored worldwide - so for PAL and NTSC - on 3D Blu Ray, without a quality reduction due to a conversion, without jerkiness at all. There is a possible conversin from 50i to 24p without a loot of quality loss, but the conversion from 60i to 24p is even harder. That is the reason why a lot of people look for a 3D camcorder like the Z10000 to be able to shoot in 1080 24p.

And we never ever can be sure what kind of display the customer is using. But 24p is a worldwide standard, you will find that today in every 3D HDTV today.

24p was never a canvas for conveying reality. It was promoted by Edison based on mechanical speed limitations of contraptions that slammed film a frame at a time through a camera and projector pathway.

Here's an interesting tidbit. The movie, "The Hobbit," a 3D movie currently in production, is being shot in 48fps which is "less taxing to watch." See http://insidemovies.ew.com/2011/04/1...peter-jackson/

In the article at the link above, there is a link to a demo of higher frame rates.

With all the content available to viewers, the story matters a lot more than the canvas. Excuses made in the past that attempt to assign a benefit to 24p are complete BS. Technology allows higher frame rates.

Europe's use of 50i is simply to keep TV screens from beating against 50Hz lighting. 50Hz lighting and TV is annoying to me. I suppose its something to get used to. Agreed that converting 50i to 24p has a less noticeable pull down.

Is 60Hz annoying to Europeans that visit 60Hz countries?

Think about putting new 48fps-3D movies on media. Will they use AVCHD 2.0 for 3D disks sold? Probably not. The only way to see 48fps 3D will be in theaters equipped to show it.
post #89 of 564
Thread Starter 
I know quite well that the Hobbit is taken with something about 40 Reds with 48p - what is great and will be fun. But it would be nice to have also on Blu Ray - but the Blu Ray consortia has even not been willing to define 1080 50p/60p for 2D Blu Ray, and not 1080 50i/60i for 3D Blu Ray (what would be possible).

Sure I would like to have 48p for 3D - or also 50p. Progressive is the most important point. But for 3D Blu Ray 1080 48p will not fly - give the limitations in bandwith even for hdmi 1.4. Maybe with another standard....

So frankly spoken, I do not know what it will help us at the moment. With Vegas 10/11 you can decide to encode 3D to MVC 720 50p for PAL, 720 60p for NTSC and 1080 24p for the world. Fine. But that is it. For the future we will see.

And well, I have visited the States a lot of time, and never filled annoyed by the power or light working with 60 Hz. Taking videos with 50i can be tricky sometimes if lighting has 60Hz, but beside that if was fine for me.
post #90 of 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

I know quite well that the Hobbit is taken with something about 40 Reds with 48p - what is great and will be fun. But it would be nice to have also on Blu Ray - but the Blu Ray consortia has even not been willing to define 1080 50p/60p for 2D Blu Ray, and not 1080 50i/60i for 3D Blu Ray (what would be possible).

Sure I would like to have 48p for 3D - or also 50p. Progressive is the most important point. But for 3D Blu Ray 1080 48p will not fly - give the limitations in bandwith even for hdmi 1.4. Maybe with another standard....

So frankly spoken, I do not know what it will help us at the moment. With Vegas 10/11 you can decide to encode 3D to MVC 720 50p for PAL, 720 60p for NTSC and 1080 24p for the world. Fine. But that is it. For the future we will see.

And well, I have visited the States a lot of time, and never filled annoyed by the power or light working with 60 Hz. Taking videos with 50i can be tricky sometimes if lighting has 60Hz, but beside that if was fine for me.

Could apply a pull down to the 48fps, showing some frames twice, resulting in 1080i60-3D or 1080i50-3D using AVCHD 2.0 on bluray media This would already play on Sony S480 S580 S780 blu ray players.

Since we tolerate a pull down for 24p, I think this 48p pull down would also be tolerable. The result would display more of the motion from the 48p source.

Tying this into SVP11, I suspect it won't be long until we see AVCHD 2.0 support from that, as it is currently ridiculous that the free PMB product supports AVCHD 2.0 disk burning while SVP currently doesn't. This is only software, not like the PS3 which has likely run into a hardware dead end lacking AVCHD 2.0.

Have you used a European 50i equivalent to the Sony AVCHD 2.0 supporting bluray players which do 60i from the TD10 camcorder without recode?
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