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HiMedia HD900B Full 3D Media Streamer (Realtek 1186-based) - Page 41

post #1201 of 1527
2/26/12 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

Well, worse case it is a very easy solution, don't upgrade the fw if it comes down to that. I see no reason for concerns for current owners.

True that my friend!
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #1202 of 1527
2/26/12 at 9:32am
I wish people would stop saying that "their" 900B doesn't stutter. All the Micca/Himedia units stutter. It's baked into the 1186 chip. My Iconbit stuttered too until I returned it, hoping the Micca wouldn't. If you don't notice it stuttering,that's another thing entirely. You're the lucky ones I guess, that don't see the stutter so it doesn't bother you. But they all do it; playing 23.976 media correctly been a long time issue with the Realtek chips from a lot of things I've been reading lately.

As far as the Dunes not supporting true 3D, that's true right now, but imo the Micca/HiMedia is so unstable that the Dune D1, for, me, is worth considering, even without full 3D ISO support. I love the feature set in these players, but the playback and other issues are too unstable. The Dunes can play sbs 3D content just fine, you just enter 3D mode in your tv manually instead of having the Himedia send it over frame-packed. Sure it's not full 1080p 3D, and your Dune menus will look funny when your tv is in 3D mode, but from everything I have read, the Dune will play everything perfectly, no stuttering on half the framerates you try.

I'd rather have a player that doesn't do everything but what it does it does right, than a player that claims to do everything but none of it correctly.
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post #1203 of 1527
2/26/12 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I wish people would stop saying that "their" 900B doesn't stutter. All the Micca/Himedia units stutter. It's baked into the 1186 chip. My Iconbit stuttered too until I returned it, hoping the Micca wouldn't. If you don't notice it stuttering,that's another thing entirely. You're the lucky ones I guess, that don't see the stutter so it doesn't bother you. But they all do it; playing 23.976 media correctly been a long time issue with the Realtek chips from a lot of things I've been reading lately.

As far as the Dunes not supporting true 3D, that's true right now, but imo the Micca/HiMedia is so unstable that the Dune D1, for, me, is worth considering, even without full 3D ISO support. I love the feature set in these players, but the playback and other issues are too unstable. The Dunes can play sbs 3D content just fine, you just enter 3D mode in your tv manually instead of having the Himedia send it over frame-packed. Sure it's not full 1080p 3D, and your Dune menus will look funny when your tv is in 3D mode, but from everything I have read, the Dune will play everything perfectly, no stuttering on half the framerates you try.

I'd rather have a player that doesn't do everything but what it does it does right, than a player that claims to do everything but none of it correctly.

I think I pointed this out a while back! I can say for my rig 3D SBS looks perfect! And when I watch Avatar 3D the navi subs work just fine! Almost all my movies are MKV's so converting them to SBS is just fine!
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post #1204 of 1527
2/26/12 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by diablozoe View Post

I think I pointed this out a while back! I can say for my rig 3D SBS looks perfect! And when I watch Avatar 3D the navi subs work just fine! Almost all my movies are MKV's so converting them to SBS is just fine!

The actual question is whether there is a frame dropped or added (slight stutter) in the video every 42 seconds when a 23.9x rate video is played.

In particular it is claimed that the exact 24p videos do not have this stutter every 42 seconds, while the 23.9x rate videos have the stutter, at least for some users.

To help with this, hokeysmoke made some test files.
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post #1205 of 1527
2/26/12 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I wish people would stop saying that "their" 900B doesn't stutter. All the Micca/Himedia units stutter. It's baked into the 1186 chip. My Iconbit stuttered too until I returned it, hoping the Micca wouldn't. If you don't notice it stuttering,that's another thing entirely. You're the lucky ones I guess, that don't see the stutter so it doesn't bother you. But they all do it; playing 23.976 media correctly been a long time issue with the Realtek chips from a lot of things I've been reading lately.

As far as the Dunes not supporting true 3D, that's true right now, but imo the Micca/HiMedia is so unstable that the Dune D1, for, me, is worth considering, even without full 3D ISO support. I love the feature set in these players, but the playback and other issues are too unstable. The Dunes can play sbs 3D content just fine, you just enter 3D mode in your tv manually instead of having the Himedia send it over frame-packed. Sure it's not full 1080p 3D, and your Dune menus will look funny when your tv is in 3D mode, but from everything I have read, the Dune will play everything perfectly, no stuttering on half the framerates you try.

I'd rather have a player that doesn't do everything but what it does it does right, than a player that claims to do everything but none of it correctly.

The other users are entitled to report what they see. The short answer is that perhaps some monitors stutter with the Realtek 1186 boxes, while some don't.

Or, some users are not sensitive to the stutter, while others do not notice it even when it is present.

It's clear that you have a good eye for seeing the stutter, and we have test files so it is easy to produce.

Other users tell me that they see the stutter on some monitors, and not on other monitors. So, the question is if you can try another monitor. This may not be practical, and it's reported that a different player doesn't stutter.

Of all the Realtek boxes mentioned here on AVSforum, continuous ongoing feedback from a vendor who admits he is affiliated is only found in the Micca EP950 thread. He hasn't said whether Realtek is going to be able to correct this.

Maybe it's a design limitation of the Realtek 1186 chip. I doubt its a design limitation, though the possibility exists. The proof is in the fix, if there ever is one.
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post #1206 of 1527
2/26/12 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post


The actual question is whether there is a frame dropped or added (slight stutter) in the video every 42 seconds when a 23.9x rate video is played.

In particular it is claimed that the exact 24p videos do not have this stutter every 42 seconds, while the 23.9x rate videos have the stutter, at least for some users.

To help with this, hokeysmoke made some test files.

I understand that. What I was saying in the above post was something to the fact of I pointed out the Dune was a superior player all around! I have a pretty good eye and all the MKV's that I have are 23.xxx FR and the player is set to 24p, I am not saying 100% that I don't have the 42 sec stutter. What I can say 100% is it does not matter because A I have a Dune and B the 900 is in the bedroom! and C I have not seen it!
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post #1207 of 1527
2/26/12 at 2:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:


It bothers everybody ripping copyrighted material! It's not a point of stealing! It's backing up your own movies so they don't get all scratched up by the kids! It's big business saying everybody is a thief!

Agreed. It's a matter of convenience in my case... a wall rack full of (or spilling over with) Blu-rays or a nice jukebox (or even just a list) from which to easily select & play? Studios can try to force the former on us, but users will eventually find a way to do the latter. I hope at least... I can't go back to discs! Too spoiled by XBMC, Boxee & YAMJ jukeboxes now
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post #1208 of 1527
2/26/12 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by diablozoe View Post

I understand that. What I was saying in the above post was something to the fact of I pointed out the Dune was a superior player all around! I have a pretty good eye and all the MKV's that I have are 23.xxx FR and the player is set to 24p, I am not saying 100% that I don't have the 42 sec stutter. What I can say 100% is it does not matter because A I have a Dune and B the 900 is in the bedroom! and C I have not seen it!

Okay, that's good info.

Would it be accurate to write that for some 900 users, it does not matter that the player may or may not have an occasional video stutter, simply because of how they use the player?

In all fairness to those who are seeing the stutter, and it matters to them, would it be more accurate to state you don't know if there is a stutter?

I don't have a dune player, but do believe dune is a great player.
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post #1209 of 1527
2/26/12 at 3:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post


Okay, that's good info.

Would it be accurate to write that for some 900 users, it does not matter that the player may or may not have an occasional video stutter, simply because of how they use the player?

In all fairness to those who are seeing the stutter, and it matters to them, would it be more accurate to state you don't know if there is a stutter?

I don't have a dune player, but do believe dune is a great player.

Yes your statement is accurate! The thing is everything goes through my SC 37 and it usually picks up the littlest hiccup! So I have not noticed a stutter yet and if I get time will test out the test files!
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post #1210 of 1527
2/26/12 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by diablozoe View Post

Yes your statement is accurate! The thing is everything goes through my SC 37 and it usually picks up the littlest hiccup! So I have not noticed a stutter yet and if I get time will test out the test files!

When the stutter occurs, the player is likely sending an extra frame of the same video, instead of advancing to the next frame. Or it skips a frame. It doesn't seem likely that this is something that the SC 37 would regard as a glitch, since "wrong content" is the issue, rather than a glitch in the signal.

A person watching this would see a lack of smooth motion at the moment of the stutter, caused by the extra frame or missing frame, which ever it is.

When playing the test file, the first stutter is said to occur at a random moment after playback starts, but the second stutter will be 42 seconds after the first.

The SC 37 may not be able to tell the difference that our eyes could spot.

There is also the possibility that this is a glitch in the video, and that a good video processor, or good processing inside the monitor might hide the glitch or stutter.
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post #1211 of 1527
2/26/12 at 6:41pm
I can't get the ISO for "Drive Angry" to play properly. It always plays the lengthy making-of documentary instead of the real movie.

Is there anyway around it?
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post #1212 of 1527
2/27/12 at 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlin View Post

I can't get the ISO for "Drive Angry" to play properly. It always plays the lengthy making-of documentary instead of the real movie.

Is there anyway around it?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post21687874
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post #1213 of 1527
2/27/12 at 10:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

So, one more download for anyone who cares. I've captured the stutter at both 24Hz and 60Hz into short MJPEG clips with a high-speed camera. I suggest using Quicktime to view them as it can pause and advance frame-by-frame accurately with these files. The text file explains where the stutter occurs.

This is the best thing I've read on this site in quite some time.

Trust me, we're out here. We appreciate this stuff. I always wanted to buy a Casio for its high speed recording capabilities but I already have so many other cameras that I haven't been able to justify it. I'm glad to see that at least someone out there has more disposable income than I have, and is willing to spend some of it on "fun" toys.

My big interest in the Casio is to figure out something very similar to what you have done. It's to figure out exactly WTF is happening in all of the weird interpolation modes my TV has. The dumbed down jenglish explanation in the manual is worse than worthless. And, of course, the interpolation modes interact with each other. Which makes it even more exciting when trying to understand what is going on.

To make my post be at least slightly relevant to this discussion, how does the average person know that their *display* (not streamer) isn't what's causing stutter any jitter or stutter being seen? There are plenty of opportunities for the display to add its own screwups. And w/o something like a high speed camera it's really hard to be sure of exactly what we see in real time.
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post #1214 of 1527
2/27/12 at 11:35pm
Check out sarotech abigs D9, who really makes this player?
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post #1215 of 1527
2/28/12 at 1:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

Here's an update on the testing I have done. I have now looked at the 23.976Hz motion pattern at both 24Hz and 60Hz, and confirm that there is stuttering at both rates. It is interesting to note, though, that it is very difficult to see the stutter when the pattern is displayed at 60Hz, because the jitter due to the 3:2 cadence dominates what you see, so the additional jitter due to the once per 42-second frame repeat is barely noticeable. I needed to capture it on video to make sure it was there. This explains why people with 120Hz 3D (aka 60Hz er eye) don't see it.

So, one more download for anyone who cares. I've captured the stutter at both 24Hz and 60Hz into short MJPEG clips with a high-speed camera. I suggest using Quicktime to view them as it can pause and advance frame-by-frame accurately with these files. The text file explains where the stutter occurs. At high speeds like this, the stutter simply looks like a pause in the stream (and that's exactly what it is - the 24Hz buffer runs out after 1000 frames and simply repeats the last frame it had).

http://www.mediafire.com/?kdeyz4peodg73ey

Thanks for making these high speed video recordings that show the repeated frames made by the incorrect playback.

Here is a link to a mirror for those high speed videos, using standard zip compression:

http://st7.us/stutter_highspeed.zip
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post #1216 of 1527
2/28/12 at 2:43am
Maybe we have good news ....new fw
http://dl.himedia-tech.cn/HD900B/HD900_1.0.3.8.tar.gz


New Features

1. Support seemless playback on HiTV's site, say Youku,Qiyi,Sohu,Ku6
2. BD Lite navigation support 3D mode playback
3. Deep color default as AUTO。
4. Add timezone setup
5. Add Hebrew support
6. Add Vietnam support
7. Add Poland language
8. Enable Telnet function
9. Add the setup for 3D depth of field.
10. Fix the BT function
11. Fix the bug in youtubeXL
12. Add new function for network diagnostic
13. Add HD900C product support

Bug Fix

1. Fix the failure of switch 720P to 1080P on some TV set
2. Fix the wrong OSD overlap on DVD Menu
3. Fix the jitter issue on 3D playback 。
4. Fix the srt issue on network share playback。
5. Fix the playback failure on some special content 。
6. Remove the subtitle's comments { }
7. Fix the 3D jitter issue in BD Navigation playback mode
8. Fix the issue about idx+sub
9. Add setup to adjust Left-Right on 3D
10. Fix the BD Navigation on error detection of main movie
11. Fix the bookmark issue 。
12. Fix the restart play issue on switch between 3D and 2D。
13. Enhance the wifi research function
14. Remove MP4 type from audio list
15. Clear all DNS address at network re-setup
16. HD900 can't be founded in network share by device name。
17. Fix andriod display issue if there are too many APK install
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post #1217 of 1527
2/28/12 at 7:14am
Let us know how it works
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post #1218 of 1527
2/28/12 at 9:46am
Well I installed the firmware in my Micca. Some of these changes, I'm not sure what they're for. Like #3 and #7 jitter issues, I'm not sure what those relate to.

I tested HokeySmoke's files, and the 23.976 stutter is still exactly the same as before, but since there are no additional video modes, I expected that.

I did notice there is now an option to change depth by going into the menu while playing in 3D mode.
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post #1219 of 1527
2/28/12 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Gremlin View Post

This is the best thing I've read on this site in quite some time.

Trust me, we're out here. We appreciate this stuff. I always wanted to buy a Casio for its high speed recording capabilities but I already have so many other cameras that I haven't been able to justify it. I'm glad to see that at least someone out there has more disposable income than I have, and is willing to spend some of it on "fun" toys.

My big interest in the Casio is to figure out something very similar to what you have done. It's to figure out exactly WTF is happening in all of the weird interpolation modes my TV has. The dumbed down jenglish explanation in the manual is worse than worthless. And, of course, the interpolation modes interact with each other. Which makes it even more exciting when trying to understand what is going on.

To make my post be at least slightly relevant to this discussion, how does the average person know that their *display* (not streamer) isn't what's causing stutter any jitter or stutter being seen? There are plenty of opportunities for the display to add its own screwups. And w/o something like a high speed camera it's really hard to be sure of exactly what we see in real time.

You know, there are tons of high speed consumer cameras out there now. Almost anything with a CMOS sensor has the ability to shoot high speed, and all of the Canons with "HS" in their model number, starting at $110 retail, can shoot at 240 frames per second. I bought the Casio FS10 for $100 since it was "last-year's model" at the time. I use it all of the time to troubleshoot motion issues in displays.

The answer to your last question is, you can't know unless it is repeatable on more than one display. Or, you can read a user to user forum (like this one) to see if anyone else is seeing what you are.
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post #1220 of 1527
2/28/12 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Well I installed the firmware in my Micca.

I did notice there is now an option to change depth by going into the menu while playing in 3D mode.

Was that a HiMedia firmware update crossflash to your Micca? (Jack@Micca previously said this was okay to try)

It is interesting that the depth option was on other units before the HiMedia. According to the post at the following link, the depth was already on the Egreat R300 player that is also based on the 1186 chip.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21672273

Perhaps the units sold by the more familiar english speaking vendors are actually further removed from the Chinese source of Realtek firmware upgrades. Egreat had the depth control before HiMedia and Micca. It's speculation about being removed from the source.

About the depth control, according to the post at the link above, other players set the depth based on the TV screen size.
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post #1221 of 1527
2/28/12 at 11:09am
Yes, I crossflashed it to my Micca. I wish I knew what guidelines should be used for depth setting. I have a 51" screen, so what is recommended? And does adjusting the depth affect the crosstalk/ghosting? I imagine it would.

I wish I knew what some of those other changes mean, like:

8. Fix the issue about idx+sub

What issue is that exactly?

And does anybody remember what the jpeg bug was that was on a previous himedia firmware? I asked on the Micca thread but didn't get a response, and I wanted to know what the bug was so I'd know if it was present on the previous Micca firmware.
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post #1222 of 1527
2/28/12 at 11:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

Well I installed the firmware in my Micca.

I tested HokeySmoke's files, and the 23.976 stutter is still exactly the same as before, but since there are no additional video modes, I expected that.

In talking with a engineer that designs players, the question came up as to why these 23.976fps videos are being played at 24fps. What are all the playback frame rate options in the latest firmware?
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post #1223 of 1527
2/28/12 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post


Was that a HiMedia firmware update crossflash to your Micca? (Jack@Micca previously said this was okay to try)

It is interesting that the depth option was on other units before the HiMedia. According to the post at the following link, the depth was already on the Egreat R300 player that is also based on the 1186 chip.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21672273

Perhaps the units sold by the more familiar english speaking vendors are actually further removed from the Chinese source of Realtek firmware upgrades. Egreat had the depth control before HiMedia and Micca. It's speculation about being removed from the source.

About the depth control, according to the post at the link above, other players set the depth based on the TV screen size.

There is another player out by sarotech called the abigs D9 it is the 900 with a diff name, wonder about the FW for this player?
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post #1224 of 1527
2/28/12 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by diablozoe View Post

There is another player out by sarotech called the abigs D9 it is the 900 with a diff name, wonder about the FW for this player?

I did see one on ebay at a very high price. Also based on 1186 chip. Most of the listing was in an Asian script.
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post #1225 of 1527
2/28/12 at 12:06pm
Hello.

I'm the person that posted the depth option on Egreat.

They also seemed to have SWAP eyes option for 3D also.

Weird that each player gets reused options...

However, the egreat at moment can not connect at gig connection like this player does I think.
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post #1226 of 1527
2/28/12 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post


I did see one on ebay at a very high price. Also based on 1186 chip. Most of the listing was in an Asian script.

Yes this player is identical to the 900! Just wondering who really designed this player?
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post #1227 of 1527
2/28/12 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

In talking with a engineer that designs players, the question came up as to why these 23.976fps videos are being played at 24fps. What are all the playback frame rate options in the latest firmware?

I'm wondering the same thing, and I made a whole post about this on the Micca thread. Why is 23.976 material being played at 24.000fps?

The playback frame rate options are exactly the same now as was before. Here are the options on the newest himedia firmware:

HDMI Auto
NTSC
PAL
480P
576P
720P 50Hz
720P 60Hz
1080i 50Hz
1080i 60Hz
1080P 50Hz
1080P 60Hz

That's it. Here are the modes listed for the Dune HD Smart D1 for comparison (from their manual)

480i/720p/1080i/1080p, 23.976/24/ 30/50/59.94/60 Hz

Notice it supports 23.976Hz and 59.94Hz playback modes. These players should too, in both 720P and 1080P resolutions. I'm not an expert in this by any means, but I believe that could solve the issue. Maybe I'm completely wrong, I don't know. But there must be a reason why other players support those framerates.
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post #1228 of 1527
2/28/12 at 1:46pm
Latest HD900 firmware is coming. Please try:


http://dl.himedia-tech.cn/HD900B/HD900_1.0.3.8.tar.gz


New function



1. Support seemless playback on HiTV's site, say Youku,Qiyi,Sohu,Ku6

2. BD Lite Navigation support 3D mode playback

3. deep color default as AUTO。

4. Add timezone setup

5. Add Hebrew support

6. Add Vietnam support

7. Add Poland language

8. Enable Telnet function

9. Add the setup for 3D depth of field.

10. Fix the BT function

11. Fix the bug in youtubeXL

12. Add new function for network diagnostic

13. Add HD900C product supported



Bug Fix

1. Fix the failure of switch 720P to 1080P on some TV set

2. Fix the wrong OSD overlap on DVD Menu

3. Fix the jitter issue on 3D playback 。

4. Fix the srt issue on network share playback。

5. Fix the playback failure on some special content 。

6. Remove the subtitle's comments { }

7. Fix the 3D jitter issue in BD Navigation playback mode

8. Fix the issue about idx+sub

9. Add setup to adjust Left-Right on 3D

10. Fix the BD Navigation on error detection of main movie

11. Fix the bookmark issue 。

12. fix the restart play issue on switch between 3D and 2D。

13. Enhance the wifi research function

14. Remove MP4 type from audio list

15. Clear all DNS address at network re-setup

16. HD900 can't be founded in network share by device name。

17. Fix andriod display issue if there are too many APK install
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post #1229 of 1527
2/28/12 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

I'm wondering the same thing, and I made a whole post about this on the Micca thread. Why is 23.976 material being played at 24.000fps?

The playback frame rate options are exactly the same now as was before. Here are the options on the newest himedia firmware:

HDMI Auto
NTSC
PAL
480P
576P
720P 50Hz
720P 60Hz
1080i 50Hz
1080i 60Hz
1080P 50Hz
1080P 60Hz

That's it. Here are the modes listed for the Dune HD Smart D1 for comparison (from their manual)

480i/720p/1080i/1080p, 23.976/24/ 30/50/59.94/60 Hz

Notice it supports 23.976Hz and 59.94Hz playback modes. These players should too, in both 720P and 1080P resolutions. I'm not an expert in this by any means, but I believe that could solve the issue. Maybe I'm completely wrong, I don't know. But there must be a reason why other players support those framerates.

The engineer who designs players says that a player should play the content at the frame rate specified by the content, or stutters and dropped frames will result.

For 3D, it is especially important that all frames be played, without any dropped frames are duplicates.

There are alternatives that can be done in player software to speed up playback to 24fps, while displaying all frames only once, and keeping A/V sync.

The approach used by these Realtek boxes, which plays 23.976fps content at 24fps while filling in with duplicated frames is not considered a viable alternative to playback 3D. Yet that is exactly what these Realtek 1186 based players are doing wrong.

This erroneous approach to playback was poorly conceived from the start, and a product that used this flawed method should have never been shipped, in the opinion of a qualified design engineer.
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post #1230 of 1527
2/28/12 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

The approach used by these Realtek boxes, which plays 23.976fps content at 24fps while filling in with duplicated frames is not considered a viable alternative to playback 3D. Yet that is exactly what these Realtek 1186 based players are doing wrong.

Why is 3D any different from 2D?

The only time 3D absolutely requires no dropped frames is after the content is converted to frame sequential, where a dropped frame means inverted eyes. With frame packed output like the HD900 does, the eyes are synchronized. When a frame is added, it's added to both eyes at the same time.

The important thing in 3D related to frame rate is that the display and the source must operate at exactly the same frequency. To do this, the display bases its clock on the source, generally referred to as being "frame-locked". All 3D displays must frame-lock to the source. So, if a source plays back at 24Hz, the display will also sync at 24Hz. But this has nothing to do with whether or not the source is dropping or adding frames.
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