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Red tails in 11.1 Audio - Page 3

post #61 of 73
Reviews from a few of us AVS members that caught 'Red Tails' here in SoCal:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

The film itself is so-so, worth seeing once, but not twice IMHO. But the Auro3D in Edwards Calabasas (California) is unlike anything that I have ever heard before: to my ears better than Arclight, the Academy, or the Director's Guild in Los Angeles. Super clean and immersive and that is a characteristic of theater 2 with the audio setup there and not so much Red Tails, itself, with 11.1 with apparently 5 height speakers to the right and 5 height speakers to the left mounted above the normal surround speakers with four rear speakers directly behind the seats. Plenty of bass. From the start of the four or five trailers, the audio was something that I had never experienced before. IMHO, the film itself was not better with respect to the audio than the trailers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Caught it in 11.1 at one of the Auro-3D beta sites (Edwards Calabasas). The movie felt like a typical George Lucas production these days, what with the wooden acting and clich├ęd dialogue. On par with an afterschool special or TV movie of the week, but with big production values. The Star Wars-like dogfights, unrealistic as they might be, were a treat to watch (really puts you in the cockpit). The height effect was subtle for the most part, with a few noticeable moments where it was more obvious (e.g., last shot of the film). We were careful to find seats in the middle of the overhead speaker matrix. Trailers before the film appeared to have been upmixed to 11.1, since familiar ones were more immersive than they've sounded previously. Curious how this soundtrack will be delivered on BD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Drove down to LA to meet other AVS members and also to see Red Tails in Auro3D with them. My thoughts mirror with that of Sanjay's. Movie and sound.

Here is what I thought about the Auro3D system:

My verdict? One word... potential.

Let me say first that we were able to enjoy the whole sitting with no audio artifacts, dropouts, etc. The bass was there the whole time too.

The Red Tails audio design, imho, was not adequate enough to fully realize the true potential that this system could offer. Most of us agreed that there were maybe at most half a dozen or less times throughout the entire viewing that the extra channels were noticeable or what I'd say as improving what a proper 5.1 (or 7.1) system could achieve. I mentioned to the others that I almost wanted for the sound mixing to be more gimmicky. It needed to be more aggressive and directional. I was also hoping for a thicker sound mix ala Saving Private Ryan and such. The whole design seemed very straightforward when it should have been pushing the envelope. I hope that there are more films mixing in 11.1 so I can provide a better overall verdict on the Auro3D system, itself because I feel that the actual mix for RT was not good enough and would have been pretty much just as good in 5/7.1 audio.

I wasn't impressed with the overall sound design and mix but the Auro3D helped a bit. Hopefully another movie with a more aggressive use of the 11.1 channels will be a better Auro3D demonstration. That being said, I thought it was worth the trip to Calabasas but I just enjoyed hanging out with fellow AVS'ers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Saw this film on sunday with a few of the socal (and norcal) guys at the Edwards Calabasas theater (the auro 3d test site).

Hmmm...I must say the dialogue was interesting...a bit cliche and corny at times. The story's execution was so so compared to that of the 1995 HBO film about the TAs (Laurence Fishbourne one). Still the film was at the least enjoyable for me.

The thing that bothered me the most though was the CGI. Something about it just made the dog fights seem unreal (just watch the trailers to see). My preference would be for them to use real planes but I know that would be IMPOSSIBLE to find that many B-17 bombers to use for the escort scenes.

Other than those issues the film was still enjoyable. A must own? Probably not unless its in the $5 bin.

Now to the sound, when the trailers started playing I thought the tracks were upmixed to use the 11.1 system since. For example, the battleship trailer was lot more immersive than I remembered and I've seen it several times at many theaters.

The movie itself though, being that it was the first 11.1 mix I got pretty hyped about it. I was expecting aggressive use of the "Voice of God" speakers but instead only a few scenes used em (to my hearing). During the movie I kept looking up at the speakers when some of the planes would fly overhead. Either the heights were subtle or my hearing is going out.

Like Scott said, the system has potential.

EDIT: It would be pretty sweet to have a film like Battle LA remixed into 11.1...I can think of a few scenes where the overhead speakers would be great (Bridge scene)
post #62 of 73
Thanks for the feedback.
post #63 of 73
Why wife and I seen Red Tails this weekend and really enjoyed it. We saw it at a THX certified cinema at The Warren in Wichita KS in advertised Dolby 7.1. The audio mix was incredible! I wish I could have experienced it in an Aura 3d equipped cinema although I was blown away by the audio even in 7.1.
post #64 of 73
Sounds like they took a 7.1 discrete track and added post processing for height effects channels? Would that be an accurate description?

Why don't they just create a new bit-for-bit lossless codec that can do 24 bit, 11.1 discrete channels and mix it as such?

Matrix surround extraction is so retro these days and doesn't do nearly as good a job as real discrete channels.
post #65 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Sounds like they took a 7.1 discrete track and added post processing for height effects channels? Would that be an accurate description?

No. Red Tails is a [sound studio] discrete 11.1 mix. Watch this video.
post #66 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Sounds like they took a 7.1 discrete track and added post processing for height effects channels? Would that be an accurate description?

Movies are not upmixed in the theater.

Quote:


Why don't they just create a new bit-for-bit lossless codec that can do 24 bit, 11.1 discrete channels and mix it as such?

D-Cinema already handles 16 channels of LPCM. No need for bitrate reduction.
post #67 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Movies are not upmixed in the theater.

D-Cinema already handles 16 channels of LPCM. No need for bitrate reduction.

16 channels of 24 bit PCM? Didn't know that! Cool! Now, if only they would actually utilize the capability. However, sometimes the sound mixers barely do a quality, enveloping 5.1 mix.

----

From the Barco video, it still sounds like Auro3D is matrix channel encoding rather than 11.1 discrete channels of separate audio information... notice that they say the audio information is contained in a 5.1 mix and only extracted if you use their proprietary Auro3D decoder. It sounds just like Dolby ProLogic IIz and Audyssey DSX matrix processing.

The studios and movie distributors don't really have to pay Barco anything to mix in up to 16 discrete channels of LPCM if they consider D-Cinema standards, according to Mr. Dressler. All they need is an agreed upon speaker layout standard. Good luck with that!

Barco just wants to make more money.

The only reason I mention 24 bit lossless is that in a smaller storage space they could have separate 5.1/7.1/and whatever else mixes, and the theater could decode whichever one their auditorium can handle.
post #68 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

From the Barco video, it still sounds like Auro3D is matrix channel encoding rather than 11.1 discrete channels of separate audio information.

Actually the sound editors on the video are speculating on distribution packages including those "more applicable" to non-DCI package environments, where the 11.1 Aurophonic mix is encoded into a 'carrier' 5.1 LPCM mix . . . this latter strategy could also be used for Blu-ray. Note that the 5.1 LPCM mix they are discussing does in fact contain discrete encoded 11.1 content, NOT matrixed: read The Octopus Codec White Paper. And as this photo from the Galaxy|AuroTechnologies exhibit at MUSIKMESSE 2012 states:



Note that the '24 channel' reference seems most likely to be employed as 'simultaneously carried' encodes at 10.1 Aurophonic, 5.1 surround, and 2.0 on the BD for a common movie.
post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Barco just wants to make more money.
.


As opposed to lose money.
post #70 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

16 channels of 24 bit PCM? Didn't know that! Cool! Now, if only they would actually utilize the capability.

They also have to connect those outputs to the speaker!

Quote:


From the Barco video, it still sounds like Auro3D is matrix channel encoding rather than 11.1 discrete channels of separate audio information... notice that they say the audio information is contained in a 5.1 mix and only extracted if you use their proprietary Auro3D decoder. It sounds just like Dolby ProLogic IIz and Audyssey DSX matrix processing.

The 11.1 channels is downmixed into 5.1, then reconstructed by their decoder. It is not a matrix exactly. They claim the 5.1 downmix is playable in any theater. It may be. But so is any other 5.1 mix. The HDD can carry both.

Quote:


The studios and movie distributors don't really have to pay Barco anything to mix in up to 16 discrete channels of LPCM if they consider D-Cinema standards, according to Mr. Dressler. All they need is an agreed upon speaker layout standard. Good luck with that!

It is already in the SMPTE standards.
post #71 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

16 channels of 24 bit PCM? Didn't know that! Cool! Now, if only they would actually utilize the capability. However, sometimes the sound mixers barely do a quality, enveloping 5.1 mix.

----

From the Barco video, it still sounds like Auro3D is matrix channel encoding rather than 11.1 discrete channels of separate audio information... notice that they say the audio information is contained in a 5.1 mix and only extracted if you use their proprietary Auro3D decoder. It sounds just like Dolby ProLogic IIz and Audyssey DSX matrix processing.

The studios and movie distributors don't really have to pay Barco anything to mix in up to 16 discrete channels of LPCM if they consider D-Cinema standards, according to Mr. Dressler. All they need is an agreed upon speaker layout standard. Good luck with that!

Barco just wants to make more money.

The only reason I mention 24 bit lossless is that in a smaller storage space they could have separate 5.1/7.1/and whatever else mixes, and the theater could decode whichever one their auditorium can handle.

I can assure you the mix is 11.1 discrete. In the theater, you get 11.1 discrete out of the decode. If you do not have a Auro 3D decoder, you get the original 5.1 out. The other channels are simply omitted, not remixed.

The smart idea behind the "proprietary" encoding is that barco encodes the extra channels on top of the 5.1 in an unused portion of the available bandwidth, in the overhead of the 5.1 channels. All this without changing the SMPTE protocol. And this is the heart of the innovation.

As for Barco making more money, isn't that the purpose of any company? I will tell you there are no licensing fees. The sound studio pays for a ProTool plugin and the theater pays for the decoder, end of story. Here is the link to the white papers: http://www.barco.com/en/products-sol...?tab=downloads Enjoy the reading
post #72 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by mporlier View Post

The smart idea behind the "proprietary" encoding is that barco encodes the extra channels on top of the 5.1 in an unused portion of the available bandwidth, in the overhead of the 5.1 channels. All this without changing the SMPTE protocol. And this is the heart of the innovation.

It'll be interesting to hear a shootout between this and Dolby Atmos.

64 channels...oh my.
post #73 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

It'll be interesting to hear a shootout between this and Dolby Atmos.

64 channels...oh my.

Yes! But just to clarify, 64 outputs is just a max that I suspect is not intended to be reached anytime soon.
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