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SVS PB13-Ultra worth it? - Page 2

post #31 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I believe that Mark Seaton of Seaton Sound recently stated the LMS 5400 drivers were way back ordered. Maybe FunkyWaves has some available to them right now but then again, maybe not.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=293-666

Appear to be back in stock.
post #32 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Yes. I meant something on the order of what Audioholics did with the PB-13. I like their approach, subjective listening test followed by and supported with objective test measurement results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Too bad no one here has forked over the money to get one of these subs and test it. Ricci would be great.

How much more is needed?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...d-100l-lt.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...d-100l-lt.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...cial-test.html

It's probably the most tested driver I know of. Not difficult to figure out what it would do with X wattage based on the above.
post #33 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post


I've heard both in my family room (at the same time) as well as a 4,000 cubic foot treated home theater room (again, both at the same time). The second test was blind, and it was extremely difficult to ascertain differences between the two when blind. But just about everyone at the meet felt the PB13 offered more output for HT and went lower with the F113 being a tad better for music.

The F113 is an engineering marvel for what it can do in such a small box. But if you don't require a small box, save the extra $1k or so and get the PB13.

Having said that, will you feel what you felt at the place you demo'd the F113? Hard to say, your room is certainly not small, and at the limits if not beyond what either sub can handle. If you listened to the F113 in a smaller room, you may not get the same "feeling" in your room.

3800ft^3 is too big for a pb13-ultra?!
post #34 of 86
If you want reference levels, in my opinion, yes. Outside of possibly the Cap, it's too much room for any single sub at those levels.
post #35 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

3800ft^3 is too big for a pb13-ultra?!

to do this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdube View Post

Hi,
...looking for the deep bass and the feeling of soundtrack in my chest, I mean I want to feel my chest get pounded, and my shirt and pants to shake on me.

yes...unless you sit on it.
post #36 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


to do this?

yes...unless you sit on it.

Ah gotcha.
post #37 of 86
My room is 35' along one wall and 27' at its widest but the main area is basically 25'x23' and my PC-13 ultra rumbles my gut and yes, you can feel it. Is it what you experienced????? but I can definitely feel my SvS. That being said I am now addicted to bottom end...I luvvv bottom end......hmmm.....what??? oh yea, I am now thinking about getting a Captivator or a SubMersive. Hope this helps.
post #38 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

115dB clean from the listening position with dual SVsound PB13 Ultras double stacked in the left corner. 125dB clean from the same listening position on the JTR Captivator passive pair powered by a single Behringer EP4000 amp for both subs

This tells me that the Cap has much higher output capability than the PB13, which I have no doubt is true. Larger driver, larger enclosure, more power.

Could you tell me how the Cap sounds and feels if it is level matched to the PB13?

Quote:


Your room is huge and I don't think either the SVS or JL will provide that tactile response that blurs your vision and shakes your clothes in a room that large. They didn't in mine, and my room isn't as big as yours.

I've read your experience with interest. I suppose the dual PB13s didn't "provide that tactile response that blurs your vision and shakes your clothes" because they were output limited in your room?

So in order to get that kind of tactile response in your room, did you have to turn up the volume more with the Caps (since they have the extra output capability)?
post #39 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

This tells me that the Cap has much higher output capability than the PB13, which I have no doubt is true. Larger driver, larger enclosure, more power.

Could you tell me how the Cap sounds and feels if it is level matched to the PB13?



I've read your experience with interest. I suppose the dual PB13s didn't "provide that tactile response that blurs your vision and shakes your clothes" because they were output limited in your room?

So in order to get that kind of tactile response in your room, did you have to turn up the volume more with the Caps (since they have the extra output capability)?

That's really a tough one to answer. In my opinon at the same volume the caps are much more tactile, but is that a headroom limitation? I don't know. I can tell you this and it may be pertinant: with the SVS PB13 Ultra pair I always turned the subs up from Audyssey MultiEQ EX calibration preformed many times on my Onkyo TX-NR1007 receiver. I turned both sub outputs up between 2 and 6dB to find the bass sound I liked. With the JTR Captivators I've found myself turning both sub outputs down about 1dB from the Audyssey calibrated levels to suit what I can stand. That could be headroom, amp, whatever. But my ears never hurt with the PB13's when I watched movies at -7 or -10 from reference even with the subs turned up hot by 3-6dB, and I never heard the SVS PB13's make a bad sound with watching movies either. With the Captivators and the default reference calibration as preformed by Audyssey I can't watch movies at that level without actually hurting my ears, feeling like it's too much bass and having my ears feel "hollow" the next day. Perhaps their dynamic capabilities are so much more leading to much higher SPL peaks??? Those max clean dB ratings I provided taken in my room were listing to dubstep music - specifically a Flux Pavilion song. So those were continual repeating spl peaks and not just a once in a movie dynamic peak. I've never tried to measure dynamic peaks in a movie scene to compare, and no longer have the SVS to try it now. With the Captivators I've noticed my floor upstairs, the table, the chairs, everything seems to feel like it vibrates more, and at lower main AVR volumes, this when the the cap subs turned down a dB or so from audyessey's reference calibration. I can't say this even proves anything. I've preformed Audyssey calibration many times on both SVS PB13's and JTR Captivators using all eight calibration positions --- it is possible (though unlikely) that the Audyssey mic doesn't calibrate them equally for some reason, but more likely they are just capable of more dynamic and that dynamic gets to be too much for the listner in my room, before the sub ever hits its limits!
post #40 of 86
Very interesting Archaea, particularly what you said after running Audyssey.

One would imagine that Audyssey calibration would level match whatever sub was in the system. Yet with the PB13s you had to up the trim by 2-6dB post Audyssey, whereas with the Caps you reduced the trim by -1dB post Audyssey. Very curious indeed.

I have dual PB13s in a 2000 ft3 sealed room. I'd imagine that in such a small room, the dual PB13s still have a lot of headroom left. Moreover, I watch movies at -7 on the volume. I'm assuming I'm not output limited currently. I'm very curious how a Cap would perform, running under the same conditions (where no doubt the Cap is not even close to its limits). Would the Cap be even more tactile or punchy given the same volume?
post #41 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

Very interesting Archaea, particularly what you said after running Audyssey.

One would imagine that Audyssey calibration would level match whatever sub was in the system. Yet with the PB13s you had to up the trim by 2-6dB post Audyssey, whereas with the Caps you reduced the trim by -1dB post Audyssey. Very curious indeed.

I have dual PB13s in a 2000 ft3 sealed room. I'd imagine that in such a small room, the dual PB13s still have a lot of headroom left. Moreover, I watch movies at -7 on the volume. I'm assuming I'm not output limited currently. I'm very curious how a Cap would perform, running under the same conditions (where no doubt the Cap is not even close to its limits). Would the Cap be even more tactile or punchy given the same volume?

In a 2000 cubic foot room with dual PB13's, you've probably already got all the headroom you need from 15hz up.

I originally had a single PB13 in a 1700ish cube family room and it could play scenes like Pulse pretty darn cleanly at reference levels in the 15hz tune, whereas in the 4,000 cubic foot room she was farting at -10/-15ish in any tune with 20hz tune starting to make those unwanted noises closer to -10is IIRC (all the subs were, including the F113, EP600, DD18 - with the latter two having heavy limiters kick in to reduce the SPL and thereby eliminate unwanted noises). Now, that 4000cubic foot room was heavily treated as well and sealed and likely wasn't giving as much boundary gain as none of the subs were placed in a corner.

Moving to my current setup, what I've gained is considerable output into the single digits.
post #42 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

That's still pretty steep ($3120 powered) when you can an Ultra 13 for 2,000. However it does beat the JL F113 at $3700 and its bigger and more powerful.

The shipped to Canada Price is actually $2970 for the Funkywaves since the OP lives in Montreal.
post #43 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

In a 2000 cubic foot room with dual PB13's, you've probably already got all the headroom you need from 15hz up.

I originally had a single PB13 in a 1700ish cube family room and it could play scenes like Pulse pretty darn cleanly at reference levels in the 15hz tune, whereas in the 4,000 cubic foot room she was farting at -10/-15ish in any tune with 20hz tune starting to make those unwanted noises closer to -10is IIRC (all the subs were, including the F113, EP600, DD18 - with the latter two having heavy limiters kick in to reduce the SPL and thereby eliminate unwanted noises). Now, that 4000cubic foot room was heavily treated as well and sealed and likely wasn't giving as much boundary gain as none of the subs were placed in a corner.

Moving to my current setup, what I've gained is considerable output into the single digits.

Interesting how the output became insufficient so quickly when going from 1700 cubes to 4000. The output requirement to fill a larger space must go up exponentially. Is there any general formula for this, e.g. doubling of volume equals XX dB drop in capability?

What do you have in your current setup?

Coming back to my situation, yes I guess that dual PB13s give me all the headroom I need in my room. Hence, I'm wondering if changing to something else (like the Cap) will yield any better? The other intangible is SQ.
post #44 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

Interesting how the output became insufficient so quickly when going from 1700 cubes to 4000. The output requirement to fill a larger space must go up exponentially. Is there any general formula for this, e.g. doubling of volume equals XX dB drop in capability?

What do you have in your current setup?

Coming back to my situation, yes I guess that dual PB13s give me all the headroom I need in my room. Hence, I'm wondering if changing to something else (like the Cap) will yield any better? The other intangible is SQ.

I found I never liked the SVS PB13 Ultras for music. Was it their ruler flat EQ? I don't know --- Four subs I owned at the same time as the SVS I liked better for music than the SVS. This included JTR Captivators, Jamo D7subs, Yamaha CW218V, and Infinity HPS-1000 --these all preformed better in my subjective opinion for music to varying degrees. The SVS destroyed all those subs (except the Captivators) in movie preformance though. Are you satisfied with your music playback? Most subs have a gradually upward slopping frequency response --the Captivator does as well. I seem to prefer that sound for music.

Reference vs. Preference.

The Captivator met my subjective preference for music sound and had the tactile presence for movies that the SVS had - so it was the best of both worlds for me. I'm just now learning about EQ functions, but it may be worthwhile for you to invest some time in researching EQ options since your smaller room will allow the SVS to not be headroom limited. It is possible you may find that integrating some EQ on the SVS may do the trick for you.
post #45 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Ilkka tested all of these subs. He did not do any subjective listening, but his results should be comparable to Ricci's.

This is a list of all Ilkka's tests.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...rer-model.html

The JL
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...thom-f113.html

The SVS
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...0-hz-tune.html

This should be very similar to the funkywaves 18.0.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...aled-100l.html

The measurements back up what bfreedma experienced between the svs and jl. The JL has more output above 40 and the SVS in the ported configurations has more output below 40hz. The TC Sounds does measure the best. It will give the most output just about everywhere, can handle the most EQ at low frequencies to match its output to the room and has the least distortion.

The size difference between the SVS and JL is pretty significant, so first I would decide if you have any size restrictions and what type of finish you want. This alone may make your decision for you.

Personally, this is how I would sum up these choices.

If you don't need the most output at low frequencies, but want a small sub and are uncomfortable buying a sub without seeing it or listening to it, go for the JL.
If you want to save some money or possibly get dual subs, gain some output down low over the JL and lose some output above 40hz and don't mind a larger sub go for the SVS.
If you want the most output, can handle a box larger than the JL and are willing to pay the most, go for the Funkywave 18.0.

To make things more complicated, two other top choices to look into would be the JTR Captivator and the Seaton Submersive HP.

I would suggest calling each company (SVS, Funk Audio, JTR and Seaton) and explain your situation and goals. A good conversation can sometimes help you figure out what sub best fits what you want.

My statement was in response to Auditor55 post #16 who wanted the funkywave tested similarly to Audioholics.

Personally, I have no need for reviews of the funkywaves.
post #46 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

How much more is needed?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...d-100l-lt.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...d-100l-lt.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...cial-test.html

It's probably the most tested driver I know of. Not difficult to figure out what it would do with X wattage based on the above.

My statement was simply in response to Auditor55's comment in post #16 about wanting an Audioholics type test. Personally I have no need for an Audioholics type review of the funkywaves.
post #47 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Most subs have a gradually upward slopping frequency response --the Captivator does as well. I seem to prefer that sound for music.

that's an interesting thought. It seems like a "reverse house curve" is sometimes more preferred for music. For music, most of the tactile feel is the punch region around 40Hz and above.
post #48 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I found I never liked the SVS PB13 Ultras for music. Was it their ruler flat EQ? I don't know --- Four subs I owned at the same time as the SVS I liked better for music than the SVS. This included JTR Captivators, Jamo D7subs, Yamaha CW218V, and Infinity HPS-1000 --these all preformed better in my subjective opinion for music to varying degrees. The SVS destroyed all those subs (except the Captivators) in movie preformance though. Are you satisfied with your music playback? Most subs have a gradually upward slopping frequency response --the Captivator does as well. I seem to prefer that sound for music.

Reference vs. Preference.

The Captivator met my subjective preference for music sound and had the tactile presence for movies that the SVS had - so it was the best of both worlds for me. I'm just now learning about EQ functions, but it may be worthwhile for you to invest some time in researching EQ options since your smaller room will allow the SVS to not be headroom limited. It is possible you may find that integrating some EQ on the SVS may do the trick for you.

My system is primarily for movies. Hardly ever listen to CDs or music files. Occasionally I do watch a concert on bluray, during which the PB13s perform just fine for me. I've had a Rythmik F15 before, which was better for music but subjectively the PB13 isn't too far behind.

As for EQ options, at the moment I only use the Audyssey XT32 in my AVR. Is there something else I should consider?
post #49 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

3800ft^3 is too big for a pb13-ultra?!

Then wouldn't it be best with the f113 given its higher wattage? Doesn't the f113 move more air?
post #50 of 86
Wattage alone doesn't tell the whole story. The F113 is a sealed sub, it does need a lot of watts in order for it to perform as it does. In terms of moving air, the PB13 moves more.
post #51 of 86
Thread Starter 
I think you all got me convinced that I should go with the SVS.
I like a lot my large home theater room. In fact the whole open area is larger than that so I may eventually have to add a second SVS to achieve my goal. The problem is that it's the whole house that's going to shake like crazy. I may have to buy a new house.

I have this fantasy of building me a new house where I'd have a second basement under the first basement where I could have the home theater and be totally isolated (sound wise) from the rest of the house.
post #52 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Bottom line, if you have the space, go for the SVS and save the money. If space is your primary purchasing driver as it was for me, go for the F113.

The SVS is not that much bigger than the f113.
post #53 of 86
Sounds like you've made your choice
post #54 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdube View Post

I think you all got me convinced that I should go with the SVS.
I like a lot my large home theater room. In fact the whole open area is larger than that so I may eventually have to add a second SVS to achieve my goal. The problem is that it's the whole house that's going to shake like crazy. I may have to buy a new house.

I have this fantasy of building me a new house where I'd have a second basement under the first basement where I could have the home theater and be totally isolated (sound wise) from the rest of the house.

I was at someone's house and he had the theater in the sub basement. I was visiting his daughter while he was at a gun club meeting so I didn't stay long...the theater was beautiful though and I was able to watch an episode of 24.
post #55 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

I was at someone's house and he had the theater in the sub basement. I was visiting his daughter while he was at a gun club meeting so I didn't stay long...the theater was beautiful though and I was able to watch an episode of 24.

Not staying long was a wise choice.
post #56 of 86
pdude, I just left you a pm. I'm living in Montreal and I have 2x PC13-Ultra.

I'm selling them, but you could also come by and hear them before they are gone!
post #57 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

As for EQ options, at the moment I only use the Audyssey XT32 in my AVR. Is there something else I should consider?

If you like the sound that it puts out, there is no reason to change it for anything else. As far as EQ'ing subs, it's considered one of the best processors. The only knock against Audyssey is that there is no real means for tailoring the sound to different taste beyond what it considers "reference" response. The only thing I've done is boost up the sub level to give me a slight house curve.
post #58 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post


If you like the sound that it puts out, there is no reason to change it for anything else. As far as EQ'ing subs, it's considered one of the best processors. The only knock against Audyssey is that there is no real means for tailoring the sound to different taste beyond what it considers "reference" response. The only thing I've done is boost up the sub level to give me a slight house curve.

Dynamic eq adds a house curve...also xt32 comes with sub eq ht.
post #59 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destructo_1 View Post

pdude, I just left you a pm. I'm living in Montreal and I have 2x PC13-Ultra.

I'm selling them, but you could also come by and hear them before they are gone!

how much u selling them for?
post #60 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I hope I'm not stepping on any toes here (just my opinion), but I've heard dual PB13's in the same room as a single Submersive and a single Captivator.

Even if they cost the same I'd take 1 Sub or Cap over 2 Ultras.

+3. For $1500 and another $300 for a capable amp, I just don't see how you can beat the Cap in sheer output and fine musicality under
$2,000.

The PB 13 is still a superb value though, no doubt about it.

James
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