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Captivator or Submersive? - Page 3

post #61 of 262
Wow!
post #62 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

Heard both of these woofers today, both are amazing. Properly powered the captivator will probably melt your face off.

How about the Submersive, can it "melt your face off" too?
post #63 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

How about the Submersive, can it "melt your face off" too?


Results are neck and neck from our GTG.

They are both great subs.

We will have our info up in the following days.

I think the only thing the Cap may have over the Subm is the ability to make your ears bleed outside. Normal people won't need this. Even abnormal avs people. But it is cool.
post #64 of 262
That's quite an image. Melted faces and bleeding ears.
post #65 of 262
In most cases either sub will make any one happy but in cases someone wants to get down to the science behind them here is a general summary.

Submserive is a bandpass design (not sealed) correct?? This means that it has the extension of a sealed design but limits the harmonic distortion in the higher frequencies.
post #66 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

with proper setup, this can be overcome pretty easily (DCX, minidsp etc.)

How so?
post #67 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post


Submserive is a bandpass design (not sealed) correct?? This means that it has the extension of a sealed design but limits the harmonic distortion in the higher frequencies.

The Submersive is sealed, plain and simple. It's not a bandpass. It inherently has no design advantage which limits harmonic distortion. It's sealed with two drivers on opposed sides.
post #68 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

The Submersive is sealed, plain and simple. It's not a bandpass. It inherently has no design advantage which limits harmonic distortion. It's sealed with two drivers on opposed sides.

really, what made me think it was a bandpass design this morning ....I guess that is why I asked for clarification. Nevermind above.
post #69 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

really, what made me think it was a bandpass design this morning ....I guess that is why I asked for clarification. Nevermind above.

Seaton has had a bandpass design in the works for years. It's call the Terraform. It's still vaporware.
post #70 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Results are neck and neck from our GTG.

They are both great subs.

We will have our info up in the following days.

I think the only thing the Cap may have over the Subm is the ability to make your ears bleed outside. Normal people won't need this. Even abnormal avs people. But it is cool.


I think greg summed it up pretty well.
post #71 of 262
Thread Starter 
Quote:


It's still vaporware.

?????
post #72 of 262
Ill disagree that the headroom is unneeded. The captivators and the submersive both did well at the meet. But of all the subs at the meet- the captivator was the only sub that didn't make a bad noise or indicate to me that we were able to find or border its limits. That's worth it to me. That we could have turned it up 6dB and it would have hummed along just as easily without any stress but that same 6dB would have strongly revealed the limits of every other sub represented there. Multiple times during the cap audition I just wanted to turn the Volume up because it sounded so good and I know from ownership it'll take so much more!
post #73 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

?????

The Terraform suffered from the same passive radiator issues (distortion of the PR surround at high SPL) as the last generation Captivator. Mark has been trying to source a new PR that would work with the Terraforms bandpass design. I think he is close and that sub should set a new standard for HT performance (commercial product ). But it will be big (as in Orbit Shifter big ).

BTW, I loved the bandpass version of the Captivator and the Terraform XL should be a much larger version with that one niggling PR issue resolved. I for one can't wait to hear that product.
post #74 of 262
Thread Starter 
well I hope he can figure it out 'cause they look killer!
post #75 of 262
I agree with what archaea says. The captivator could have gone to much higher levels. It was pushing some insane bass out upstairs on the 2ch display. The single 8 was mind blowing too.
post #76 of 262
Thread Starter 
man!.....just when I was pretty much sold on the Seatons! arghhh
post #77 of 262
I think the submersive is more then enough for 99% of the population if that helps. I thought it was excellent myself. Also keep in mind our listening was 2 captivators vs 1 submersive. They both are very phenomenal choices.
post #78 of 262
I am expecting my two Submersive F2's in the next few weeks...Sounds like I might only have partial brain meltdown. Oh Well!

Still love to see the two compared..Looking forward to the posting of the results.
post #79 of 262
2 submersives will likely disintegrate your brain.
post #80 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by drpete12 View Post

I am expecting my two Submersive F2's in the next few weeks...Sounds like I might only have partial brain meltdown. Oh Well!

Still love to see the two compared..Looking forward to the posting of the results.

look at it this way... if you completely melt your brain, you won't get to enjoy them very long...

methinks you'll like them... i love my pair, and have never regretted getting the first and then the second... my only wish is that i could somehow squeeze another one (or two) into my room...
post #81 of 262
The Submersives are the superior full bandwidth no-compromise design provided you can afford enough to get the output you need. The advantage of the Captivator is some more output in a similar form factor for a similar price. The downside is your ULF is filtered.

If you've got money to throw at multiples and let this system grow, the Submersive is the obvious choice. I would think if you're looking at a $10K LCR front stage, you'd want to spend the money on the no-compromise choice for the bottom octaves.
post #82 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

The Submersives are the superior full bandwidth no-compromise design provided you can afford enough to get the output you need. The advantage of the Captivator is some more output in a similar form factor for a similar price. The downside is your ULF is filtered.

If you've got money to throw at multiples and let this system grow, the Submersive is the obvious choice. I would think if you're looking at a $10K LCR front stage, you'd want to spend the money on the no-compromise choice for the bottom octaves.

BiGBADDABOOM. I'm curious - have you heard the Cap? I totaled the scores ranking last night with Greg, and when he posts them I think you'll see that the Cap gives very little if anything up to the SubM on the average score for the scenes that were measured to be the lowest of the Low LFE material...those same scenes it should have a clear advantage on? For instance the cap won on wotw and bass I love you. The overall final variance in averaged voting score total was about 2%.

The SubM had an EQ chart flatter than a pancake (very impressive), but the Cap's EQ was nice too, and --- I'll add, flat to 15hz in Greg's room with the 20hz tune (to make a further example of our discussion from another thread). The FR charts may suprise you a bit BiGBADDABOOM. If we'd cut loose on the volume during those scenes, the small advantage the SubM had may have been overcome by the remendous headroom the Caps had. I found my scores really flipping back and forth as to which of the subs I preferred depending on the material, but it was like a 1 point difference on each of the swings usually on a 10 point scale. (overall I still preferred the ported sound) If the Cap and SubM are 1 on 1 ---the people who prefer a sealed subwoofer will find the Submersive is superior at a standardized volume like we listened to on all the clips last night - after that a single Captivator would be happy to add a bit more SPL when the submersive is out of gas.

I prefer the ported sound - (maybe I'm the minority) but for me I walked away happy because I've heard the Cap lined up against the Submersive on two occassions (at my subwoofer meet and now this one) and on both occassions I've definately prefered the ported sound of the Cap. (and all ported subs in equivalent classes have been my preference during both of these meets)

Ask some of the attendees how they liked the open range gun fight scene that Jeff and Mark threw in there. Multiple people threw some explicatives around when the shotguns were going off during the cap demo. That scene was a bonus scene shown on the Cap and SubM at a ramped up volume compared to the rest of the demo material at the end of the normal material and was not graded.

Also keep this in mind. The cap pair was being powered off a single EP4000 amp. 1 Cap on L channel, 1 Cap on R channel - parralled inputs. The amps HPF was completely off, and no HPF was engaged via EQ. The amp gain of course maxed out. During the lowest of the lowest of the lowest scenes and even during Bass I love you, not one person heard port noise. Feel free to PM all the attendees. No HPF? 120dB + measured perfectly clean with plenty of headroom remaining + cheap single amp? IIRC, ALL of the other passive subs used more amp than the Caps got (except the DTS/Growler combo) which used the same single EP4000 amp. If I understood correctly most of the other passive combos used one Dayton amp per subwoofer driver - I don't know how many watts were being pushed by the Daytons to the other subs, but the Cap used one channel per driver (2ohm wiring) -- so maybe 800 watts RMS per sub, on a 4,000 watt RMS capable driver... Jeff had a Lab Gruppen 7k amp available, but he said he didn't choose to hook it up because he didn't want to tear up Greg's house.

It's not all about SPL for everyone -- I fully understand and can appreciate that, but the takeaway is that it isn't 100% advisable that the SubM is the obvious choice for everyone. Ported and very underpowered it was still neck and neck in overall averaged scores to the SubM at the volume choosen for our listening session. Check out the results thread scores when Greg posts them.

At any rate - both are fantastic subs, along with other very competitive (and well preforming) contenders at the meet!

Last point of note...Mark's Submersive was truly a stunning looking subwoofer - well done on that front, as well as every other front! Overall a very remarkable sub - even if not my preference! Mark's knowledge about this industry is apparent in his product AND in watching and talking with him at the meet.
post #83 of 262
Thread Starter 
........so would it be fair to say 1-Captivator = 2-SubMersives? but 2 SubMersives outperform a Single Captivator (if that makes any sense)?

I just read your post above archaea.......and I'm torn again. All you guys make excellent salesmen, just when I think I have my mind made up.......................................
post #84 of 262
I think the point is with just one sub you don't fully feel the low end with either sub. Put 4 caps vs 4 subversives and now the caps will be great to 15 hz but the submersives now add the single digits to the effect. The submersive will always go lower but won't be realized until you get multiples. Of course this is assuming you are running both subs flat or at the same level which means they should play the same spl for every scene except below 15hz where the submersives will have a big advantage.
post #85 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

........so would it be fair to say 1-Captivator = 2-SubMersives? but 2 SubMersives outperform a Single Captivator (if that makes any sense)?

I just read your post above archaea.......and I'm torn again. All you guys make excellent salesmen, just when I think I have my mind made up.......................................

This is probably reasonably accurate.

1 Cap will keep up with max SPL levels against two submersives, but as everyone says two Submersives will have greater extension plus the sealed sound that most seem to prefer.

So do you prefer sealed or ported sound? That's really your primary question when it all boils down between these subs. I know for sure I prefered the sound of a single Cap (midwall placement) in my room to two PB13 Ultras (one in each front corner) on every single thing I tested when I owned both and did some testing. So it is not really a 2 subs is always better thing. If you prefer sealed sound by a submersive -- you'll love it. If you prefer ported sound by a cap -- you'll love it. If you can afford two of either set, buy two...you'll love the pairs even more than the single.

By the way MKtheater. I heard a pair of F20s this weekend, they placed midpack at our meet on average score, which in my opinion was generous. They have a lot of SPL, but were sloppy and inarticulate, again -- in my opinion. I very much think you are in for a treat, even if only temporarily (as I know you are gearing towards IB), when you get a chance to check out the Caps you have awaiting.
post #86 of 262
Here is my question

I am quite the novice at all this. My living room is approximately 1000 cubed feet which opens up to a 1200 cubed feet dining area, which opens up to a 500 cubed feet kitchen. So total, I'm looking at ~2700 cubed feet.

I would prefer a submersive because I buy it and its done, no adding of amplifier, hooking up extra equipment, trying to set proper adjustments on an equalizer, dsp, etc, blah blah blah, I don't know if that even makes sense.

It seems that if I purchase a cap, I have to find a proper amp, perhaps one with dsp, and make whatever adjustments to it so that is plays flat in my room, is this difficult or can someone such as myself do this easily with some proper guidance. By the time i buy the cap, amp and other equipment needed, will it exceed $2000 that I can buy a brand new subM HP off of a friend? And in my situation, cubed ft wise, is it worth it to mess with the cap?
post #87 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

I agree with what archaea says. The captivator could have gone to much higher levels. It was pushing some insane bass out upstairs on the 2ch display. The single 8 was mind blowing
too.

Jeff did have a nice setup upstairs. They had some fun toys to tinker with all day, set up a quick EQ and played some stuff through everything. The single 8s are nice speakers. I agree the Dual Caps probably have a bit more headroom, but we were hearing things on open range nearing 120 on both the SubM and Cap (using the handheld meter next to the ecm8000 position), how much higher do you all listen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Ill disagree that the headroom is unneeded. The captivators and the submersive both did well at the meet. But of all the subs at the meet- the captivator was the only sub that didn't make a bad noise or indicate to me that we were able to find or border its limits. That's worth it to me. That we could have turned it up 6dB and it would have hummed along just as easily without any stress but that same 6dB would have strongly revealed the limits of every other sub represented there. Multiple times during the cap audition I just wanted to turn the Volume up because it sounded so good and I know from ownership it'll take so much more!

I think I know what bad sounds are too, and from my spot I didn't hear them both make any bad sounds like a few others the write ups by observers may show. I like both subs. I really think you pick which characteristics you need. Archaea and I are going to disagree respectively in every post!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

man!.....just when I was pretty much sold on the Seatons! arghhh

Dude, does no one around you own any? You should have flown into this or go host a GTG and recruit some of these subs. I swear this may be the only way to actually figure out what you want in your room. I'm lucky, now I know exactly what I want and love. The SubM is awesome, if you want it get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

I think the submersive is more then enough for 99% of the population if that helps. I thought it was excellent myself. Also keep in mind our listening was 2 captivators vs 1 submersive. They both are very phenomenal choices.

100% Agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

BiGBADDABOOM. I'm curious - have you heard the Cap? I totaled the scores ranking last night with Greg, and when he posts them I think you'll see that the Cap gives very little if anything up to the SubM on the average score for the scenes that were measured to be the lowest of the Low LFE material...those same scenes it should have a clear advantage on? The overall variance in averaged voting score total was about 2%.

Very close scores. I'm working on pasting them into my word document to post it all tonight. I'm at 8 pages so far I think you can also tell across the voters they prefer sealed for music and ported in movies. But that is just general speak

The SubM had an EQ chart flatter than a pancake (very impressive), but the Cap's EQ was nice too,

Frankly, the SubM EQ chart, at 1/48th smoothing, was the flattest thing I've ever seen on a REW graph. wow. It was like it was 1/3 smoothing or something.

and --- I'll add, flat to 15hz in Greg's room with the 20hz tune (to make a further example of our discussion from another thread). The FR charts may suprise you a bit BiGBADDABOOM. If we'd cut loose on the volume during those scenes, the small advantage the SubM had may have been overcome by the remendous headroom the Caps had.

But we don't know that, we didn't test it. Heel!

I found my scores really flipping back and forth as to which of the subs I preferred depending on the material, but it was like a 1 point difference on each of the swings usually on a 10 point scale. (overall I still preferred the ported sound) If the Cap and SubM are 1 on 1 ---the people who prefer a sealed subwoofer will find the Submersive is superior at a standardized volume like we listened to on all the clips last night

Exactly. Archaea loves ported. And the Cap is an amazing ported sub. I like sealed. The SubM is an amazing sealed sub. The Chase scores may also surprise some. Depending on your budget, I fail to see how anyone would be unhappy with duals of any of these....in any room. I'm looking at 4000 cubic feet here....

Ask some of the attendees how they liked the open range gun fight scene that Jeff and Mark threw in there. Multiple people threw some explicatives around when the shotguns were going off during the cap demo. That scene was a bonus scene shown on the Cap and SubM at a ramped up volume compared to the rest of the demo material at the end of the normal material and was not graded.

We will have to check with desertdome where he set them at, but both were hitting 11X on the meter I was checking throughout each run of Open Range. That stuff was awesome.


Also keep this in mind. The cap pair was being powered off a single EP4000 amp. 1 Cap on L channel, 1 Cap on R channel - parralled inputs. The amps HPF was completely off, and no HPF was engaged via EQ. The amp gain of course maxed out. During the lowest of the lowest of the lowest scenes and even during Bass I love you, not one person heard port noise. Feel free to PM all the attendees. No HPF? 120dB + measured perfectly clean with plenty of headroom remaining + cheap single amp? IIRC, ALL of the other passive subs used more amp than the Caps got (except the DTS/Growler combo) which used the same single EP4000 amp. If I understood correctly most of the other passive combos used one Dayton amp per subwoofer driver - I don't know how many watts were being pushed by the Daytons to the other subs, but the Cap used one channel per driver (2ohm wiring) -- so maybe 800 watts RMS per sub, on a 4,000 watt RMS capable driver... Jeff had a Lab Gruppen 7k amp available, but he said he didn't choose to hook it up because he didn't want to tear up Greg's house.

Ah the Gruppen. Wasn't that hooked upstairs? Maybe it was the inuke.

I agree I didn't hear any bad chuffing or whatever you want to put that as from my position.

Archaea is wrong on the Daytons though, one Dayton SA1000 was driving the Dual VS pair, and same with the SS 18.2. Unless someone snuck back there and changed them while I was in the bathroom.

Yes, if you listen to everything at 120db, then you'll want the Cap for headroom.


Last point of note...Mark's Submersive was truly a stunning looking subwoofer - well done on that front, as well as every other front! Overall a very remarkable sub - even if not my preference! Mark's knowledge about this industry is apparent in his product AND in watching and talking with him at the meet.

Stunning build on the SubM. Loved the look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

........so would it be fair to say 1-Captivator = 2-SubMersives? but 2 SubMersives outperform a Single Captivator (if that makes any sense)?

I just read your post above archaea.......and I'm torn again. All you guys make excellent salesmen, just when I think I have my mind made up.......................................

Seriously, there is no basis for saying 2 would equal 1. This is crazy talk. I don't think Archaea really means that. If you have a HT, and you have 2 SubM HP or the choice of 1 Cap...why not 2 vs 2? What is going on here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I think the point is with just one sub you don't fully feel the low end with either sub. Put 4 caps vs 4 subversives and now the caps will be great to 15 hz but the submersives now add the single digits to the effect. The submersive will always go lower but won't be realized until you get multiples. Of course this is assuming you are running both subs flat or at the same level which means they should play the same spl for every scene except below 15hz where the submersives will have a big advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

This is probably reasonably accurate.

1 Cap will keep up with max SPL levels against two submersives, but as everyone says two Submersives will have greater extension plus the sealed sound that most seem to prefer.

Max SPL? I'd like to see someone put up 2 SubM HP against 1 Cap. Based on specs I'd assume the SPL achieved would be greater with the CAP but SPL isn't the only thing we all want, is it? I'll agree, SPL it would probably get a higher number.

So do you prefer sealed or ported sound? That's really your primary question when it all boils down between these subs. I know for sure I prefered the sound of a single Cap (midwall placement) in my room to two PB13 Ultras (one in each front corner) on every single thing I tested when I owned both and did some testing. So it is not really a 2 subs is always better thing. If you prefer sealed sound by a submersive -- you'll love it. If you prefer ported sound by a cap -- you'll love it. If you can afford two of either set, buy two...you'll love the pairs even more than the single.

By the way MKtheater. I heard a pair of F20s this weekend, they placed midpack at our meet on average score, which in my opinion was generous. They have a lot of SPL, but were sloppy and inarticulate, again -- in my opinion. I very much think you are in for a treat, even if only temporarily (as I know you are gearing towards IB), when you get a chance to check out the Caps you have awaiting.

I think if you keep the F20s and run them from 20-50 and cross over from 50-120 with a Growler or something, they would be really, really solid for the money spent. I also didn't have any insulation in them which would have helped...I wonder.

NINJA EDIT: This is going to be a fun back and forth on our GTG thread I think.
post #88 of 262
I have 4 F-20's that make no bad noises at all on any scene. They can hit 126 DBS easily in my room and reach to 15hz. I am no rookie and have owned many systems that can both play louder and extend deeper than a Captivator or multiples of them. Like I said before you guys are comparing one sub to one sub which makes a big difference. I make sure all my systems can handle any scene without any HPF's with low distortion and no compression during movies. Once you do that the only difference is extension because everything starts sounding similar because they are all flat and no bad sounds ever. I love doing blind tests and love to put many cheap drivers against expensive ones and you would be shocked what people pick in the blind.
post #89 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Jeff did have a nice setup upstairs. But he also had 5 hours to fine tune it, EQ it, and he was running them off an inuke. The single 8s are nice speakers. I agree the Dual Caps probably have a bit more headroom, but we were hearing things on open range nearing 120 on both the SubM and Cap at listening position
(using the handheld meter next to the ecm8000 position), how much higher do you all listen?

a sanity check may be a valid requirement for everyone.

I do believe I like my bass more than most. When we played DJ Hero Sunday's am, I could immedately tell my sub preference is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy hotter than your systems setup --- assuming that was how you usually run your gear Greg. I want to feel every bass line in those dance songs... for all the sub demos yesterday during the actual meet I would have liked the mains dialed back or the subs dialed up an additional 3dB overall for most of the demoed units. (say test everything with subs 6dB hot - I understand that's one person's preference, some there wanted everything smooth across the board instead)

But the Caps have more than just a 'bit' more headroom, the caps have a lot more headroom than the levels we ever listened to them at the meet. I doubt we were even clipping the EP4000, (based on my comparative exp at my house in a similarly sized room) so add at least 6dB per sub at whatever max we didnt even reach yesterday on the single EP4000 amp (maybe another 5dB?). (6dB being a doubling of volume)

I hit 125 dB from my listening position clean in my room on dubstep music with repetitive heavy bass lines while just tapping the clip lights on my single EP4000. (not some one moment gunshot burst at 120db, but repetitive bass you can feel all over!!! mmmmmmm


Quote:


I think I know what bad sounds are too, and from my spot I didn't hear them both make any bad sounds like a few others the write ups by observers may show. I like both subs. I really think you pick which characteristics you need. Archaea and I are going to disagree respectively in every post!

I like you Greg, I'll forgive you for liking the submersive (sealed) sound better , but if you come by Kansas City I'll give you a demo of my theater with the dual caps running full tilt that'll weaken your resolve. By then, maybe you'll have your dual submersives and we can have a full tilt face off.


Quote:


Seriously, there is no basis for saying 2 would equal 1. This is crazy talk. I don't think Archaea really means that. If you have a HT, and you have 2 SubM HP or the choice of 1 Cap...why not 2 vs 2? What is going on here?

I think we are talking on different levels, and I didn't mean it as you understood it (or perhaps I miscommunictated) I meant strictly max SPL, not SQ. You don't need two SubM's to hit sound quality levels higher than one Cap, but I'd wager strongly that in a clean sound SPL warfare the Cap would dominate by no minor manner 1 on 1, and so you'd most likely need to SubMs to hit the clean SPL levels of one Cap. Jeff took both subs to their limits in the KC meet --- we heard distortion on both subs. I know how each felt to my body, when I walked up close to the subs! You can read about our impressions in that regard in that thread. Don't pay any attention to the SPL levels in our meet, they were jacked for whatever reason - who knows why. I've never heard SPL levels that loud before or since, so I have no idea what we heard that night, but it was high on that single 4000 watt powered captivator. Blurring your vision, shaking the walls like crazy, intense! --- ESPECIALLY as you approached the sub!
post #90 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I have 4 F-20's that make no bad noises at all on any scene. They can hit 126 DBS easily in my room and reach to 15hz. I am no rookie and have owned many systems that can both play louder and extend deeper than a Captivator or multiples of them. Like I said before you guys are comparing one sub to one sub which makes a big difference. I make sure all my systems can handle any scene without any HPF's with low distortion and no compression during movies. Once you do that the only difference is extension because everything starts sounding similar because they are all flat and no bad sounds ever. I love doing blind tests and love to put many cheap drivers against expensive ones and you would be shocked what people pick in the blind.

Except it isn't lack of spl that was the thing I noted. - they were plenty loud, and likely had more SPL in them! They just were sloppy (drum beats in red cliff were just rumbles - really actually terrible (my lowest score of the day - even despite the fact it was the very first sub we listened to, and I had awarded a couple 9's and even a 10 score on some of the clips we played pre- Red Cliff), the Battlefield LA alien ship thruster popping sounds were not crisp -(my second lowest score of the day)). Overall I still liked the F20 pair, they were fun! They did some things really well - mostly things with slower bass like the Kid Kudi song, and WOTW. Very tactile! but accuracy seemed lacking. Having four of a sub that isn't accurate doesn't make them more accurate. The F20 is a well known design with a lot of fans, I'm not saying it's a bad sub - not by any stretch, but I'll be surprised if you don't see this inaccuracy sentiment in many of the subjective comments --- nobody's hand is forced on comments -- most people didn't even talk to seriously about what was what at the meet, because you risk offending the owner of the subs in person or making things awkward. (sorry Greg) MK - I'm not knocking your preferences - just providing mine and remain excited to hear your opinion -- preciously based on the fact you have a lot of experience! I'm hoping I won't be the first to post my comments in the section because I don't want to taint other people's opinons. Greg and I talked and we aren't even sure if we should post the total scores until everyone puts their subjective comments in because we didn't want to alter someone's true and worthwhile subjective opinon based on tally of the scores not alligning with their opinion.
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