PlayStation Meeting 2013 (PS4 unveiling - conference replay in first post) - Page 62

1) They never removed PS1 BC.

2) Which other component do you want them to downgrade to make up for the $100 cost of the PS4 chipset? Or do you think they should just raise the price a little to make up for it, so that all the people who don't need or want BC will have to subsidize your desire for BC? It's not free, so that's what we're talking about here.

The forums are awesome today.

The PS4 crowd is reverse cowgirling and the Xbox crowd is being held down in the prison shower.

I personally dont expects PS3 BC. That said I fully expect Sony to offer a solution to PSN BC. Its not like these games are resoirce hogs anyways, and many are multiplatform (including PC). First party titles should be recompiled in x86, fixed, and put back up for sale. (Download for those who already bought)

1. I never said they did.

2. By the time the PS4 is production ready costs will be down much farther. My $100 estimate was at the very top end of where I believe pricing is. At launch Cell and RSX were $218 total, with the 22nm move they should be down below $50, probably less. Hardware BC isn't as expensive as people make it seem to be, but it is an added cost per unit. (multiply it by millions and it quickly adds up) This is why I am in support of a add on that plugs into the unit for those who want it.

I am not in support of Sony taking every digital purchase that 70 million PS3 owners might have made and flushing them once they upgrade to the PS4. One day PSN support on the PS3 will be shut down, then all those digital purchases are now tied to your aging hardware, and once it dies, you lose everything.

It's not all downside. BC = instant library of digital games. I've bought several PSP games for my Vita already, and I've had it a week.

It also boosts sales. Undeniably. People wouldn't be talking about it if people didnt care so much. More PS4s sold = more PS4 games sold, today and tomorrow. Not having BC increases resistance to adopting it early. They want momentum out of the gate.

They decided the benefits didnt outweigh the costs, but they are leaving money on the table.

Right now I have a library of 50ish 360 games, and 10 PS3 games. I was hoping I'd be able to dump all the 360 games, rebuy a few on PS3....but now that's not happening. And I'll have a nextbox sooner than later. That really what they wanted? I could have been a total convert.

Here's my two cents-

Backwards Compatibility in and of itself is not that important. BUT people buy thinking that it is.

When I bought my PS2, it was immensely important to me that I could play the PS1 games I owned on it. Did I actually end up playing them more then a couple of times? NO. But it made me stick with Sony.

When I bought my PS3, it was immensely important to me that I could play the PS1 and PS2 games I owned on it. Did I actually end up playing them more then a couple of times? NO. But it made me stick with Sony.


If they hadn't included the BC off the bat, there's a good chance I would have switched to MS. People that argue, "just play your old game on your old console" do have a point, but not in my household and many others. I will not have more then one console hooked up to my main living area. The wife and I agree it would look tacky and we like the idea of being able to use our media on one device. If I buy a new console the old one goes. Being able to keep a library of PS1, PS2, and PS3 games would strongly influence my decision to stay with Sony. Will I actually use any of those games on the PS4? Probably not. It's all in my head. But that doesnt matter- It would get them my money.

I think that's the common theme among supporters of BC. We only want to deal with one console, one interface, one remote, and one set of controllers. Keeping an old console hooked up next to a new one is not going to happen. The idea of having our investment of games and peripherals not go to waste is appealing. Other things being equal, the decision to stay with Sony is already made up.

Let's say two new 4k video players were being released and I had to buy a new movie player. Now let's assume there is A type player out, which plays new A discs AND old blu-ray discs and there is also another movie player called the B player out that only plays B discs. Assuming the quality of A and B discs are equal, of course I would buy the A. Some people may decide to have a VCR, blu ray player, and a B player hooked up, but not most. Even if I never actually play my old blu-rays on it, the backwards compatibility would have swayed my decision enough to buy it. Sony throwing BC into their consoles has done the same thing for me on both the PS2 and the PS3. Even now that I've finally realized I will seldom ever use the BC feature, I will certainly buy the PS4 over the MS console if it has BC all other things being close to equal. It's all in my head, but my head decides where my money goes.

I really think that is the case for many other people. In their head, they think BC is important because of their existing library. They may never actually use that BC, but it simply doesn't matter, it's in their head and it makes them a customer. The MS version would need to be ridiculously better then the PS4 version for people with this midset to choose MS. On the other hand, if the PS4's other specs and features are ridiculously better then the MS version, these people will still choose Sony even without BC.

A few outcomes can happen, but imo Sony needs to do this- Wait until MS has released their details. If the PS4 is ridiculously better then the MS version, then release the PS4 without BC. If the MS version is ridiculously better then the PS4, they pretty much NEED to find a way to include BC to try to convince some PS1,2,3 users to stay. But more than likely, the two consoles will be close to equal specs. Then it comes down to weighing the costs vs additional sales. If you don't include it, how many current PS3/would be PS4 users will buy MS instead. And how many of the ones that stay will stop buying PS3 games between now and ps4 release?(I know there are several PS3 titles I want to buy, but won't unless I know they'll play on ps4. How much revenue would you lose by not having those users stick with Sony? If you do include it, what will it cost and how many current PS3 users will buy the PS4 because of it? From the information stated by other users, I would imagine that they could include it in at least one version for under 100 bucks/console.

Also, once you get those hardcore gamers and early adopters who are more likely to care about BC to buy the console, you can always remove it on subsequent versions. They did it on the PS3. Offer it on release, people who want it will buy it. Then take the feature away and the ones that didn't want to pay extra for it will buy it without, after a price drop.

Or here's a crazy ides- Offer one version with BC and one without, with a 100 dollar version. People who want it will pay for it. I know I won't use it, but I'll still pay 100 bucks for it. BC is not that important, but it is important to sales.

So far, what has been mentioned is entirely related to digital/downloaded games. But what about my physical PS3 discs? Let's assume they somehow offer the entire PS1,2,3 libraries to be played "on the cloud". How does that work? You download the game or your device acts like a monitor streaming from a server somewhere else? Either way, I'd imagine it would not be free, so is there a way to download the games I already physically own? Can I put in a PS3 copy of far cry 3, and it will be able to read the serial number- and give me a free download of the game on ps4? That would be enough to win me over... Still just a bit confused on how it all is supposed to work.... As far as PSN games on the PS3, I haven't gotten into them much, but would sure think they'd have to give you credit for those purchases on the ps4... maybe just use your same log-in? idk


tl;dr? Still confused as to how BC is supposed to work(or not work?). Even if people don't actually use BC, I still think it influences many buyers decisions, and therefore is important.
Edited by CMonMan - 2/21/13 at 3:54pm

Pretty much. Doesn't matter how irrational it is. I want it, I'm willing to pay for it, and I can't have it. Keeping a PS3 around isn't aesthetically pleasing, and it isn't convenient. Doesn't matter if I ever use it or not - the mere potential is important to me.

Exactly. Irrational or not, it's kept me from purchasing PSN games for the past year or so (and I stopped buying XBLA titles even longer ago for the same reason). I had a strong suspicion they wouldn't be supported going forward, and that suspicion is now bearing out.

The big danger a company runs by not having BC support isn't to future sales. It's to current ones. Why buy things that you know have an expiration date? Perceived longevity of a product has a huge effect on consumer psychology. It didn't used to be possible that you could buy a game and expect to use it from platform to platform, but this is yet another way in which new market models--like Steam, GoG, and the App Store--have fundamentally changed the business. Now that longevity is possible, people expect it. When BC isn't there, people wonder why.

I mean, hell, why in the world would anyone get a PS+ subscription between now and the PS4 launch? None of those "free games" will have much of a shelf life. And once Sony sets this precedent, why would people continue to buy digital products (or even retail products) going forward? They're effectively forcing the console market into a rental/streaming business. Perhaps that's what they want... If so, well played, Sony.
Edited by confidenceman - 2/21/13 at 4:02pm

I'm talking about PSN titles, not PS3 on PSN titles. If you bought the latter when a disc option was available, sucks to be you as far as I'm concerned.

Are you guys really that concerned about what will happen to a digital video game after 10-15 years if the PSN got shut down or something? Just enjoy the moment I'd say and to hell what will happen till then, who knows if we'll even be alive..

Good idea, I'm gonna buy that ferrari now!

Yes. The reason I'm willing to buy digital music and movies and games from places like the App Store and Steam is because they've established a strong precedent for continued support. That's no guarantee, but it is a reassurance.

Sony, on the other hand, is effectively giving us a time limit for our purchases. And it sets a very bad precedent for any future digital purchases from them. If you're given the option between buying an identical game for "five years" or "as long as our well-established and long-running network exists," which would you choose?
Edited by confidenceman - 2/21/13 at 4:22pm

The promise of digital was ease of use, that use is being taken away. I can always go get a PS3 from a pawn shop in 15 years and play my disc games on it, but once the PSN is shut down, those digital games are on a timer until they disapear and you are screwed.

Steam, Apple, Nintendo, Google, all of those have a guarentee that your digital purchases will be able to migrate to new hardware, and have several examples of it working. This is what people expect from buing digital, to not have it in this day and age will not go over well. Especially with how hard Sony has been pushing digital copies of their games.

I see the argument and can't say I'm fond of it. I did not invest heavily in PSN or XBLA titles. Just a few must haves that I played for a short time and moved on from. I think the PSN stuff will come online pretty soon.

http://m.kotaku.com/5986055/sony-wed-like-a-straight-answer-about-this-used-games-stuff

It's a simple question: "Can the PlayStation 4 play used games?" After nearly a year of rumors, speculation and mysterious patents indicating that Sony could limit the play of pre-owned titles on its next-generation console we're finally getting answers — answers that leave us with more questions.

Speaking to Eurogamer's Tom Bramwell following last night's console "reveal", Sony Worldwide Studios head Shuhei Yoshida gave what seems like a concrete answer: "So, used games can play on PS4. How is that?" As Bramwell said, I think that's fine, but the roundabout path Yoshida took to get to that answer is rather puzzling. After being asked point-blank if the PlayStation 4 would block used games, Yoshida replied "Do you want us to do that?" He slides around the subject like an enigmatic mystic trying to pawn off a Mogwai, giving that seemingly definitive answer an air of uncertainty.

A Sony spokesperson speaking to Game Informer following the event gave a similarly cryptic, superficially positive answer.

"We are just now announcing the basic vision and strategy of PS4 and will have more information to share regarding used games later this year. But PlayStation has a long history of keeping its gamers happy and we won't make decisions that damage our relationship with them."

The fact that this spokesperson could not give a simple "yes" to the question indicates that issue is far from settled.

Perhaps the problem here is the question. "Can the PlayStation 4 play used games?" Yes, it can. Now what we need to know is "How does the PlayStation 4 play used games?"

Last March Kotaku reported on information from multiple sources that the PlayStation 4 would implement anti-used game technology. The most reliable of these sources suggested this technology would not block the use of used games altogether, instead letting them be played on a limited basis before requiring some sort of activation fee. Games would be linked to a specific PlayStation Network account, requiring registration before play. It's all rumor, of course, but it's definitely the sort of convoluted system that would allow for these ambiguously confirmative responses.

The only thing that's clear right now is that the issue of used games on the PlayStation 3 isn't one to be addressed by a simple yes-or-no answer. Perhaps we'll know more when Sony gets around to showing us the console we'll be somehow playing used games in.

Man, people are really tied into a bind about these used game rumors. Kotaku thanks you for your pageclicks sirs. Would you like to know more? Check out our used game patent banning slideshow!

I only posted it because they actually made a decent point. They never did give a solid yes or no answer on the subject.

Joe just posted another solid answer in the PS4 thread. Again, these rumors have been floating around since SNES, and are as stupid as DD only.

If they ever do come true, first well hear about it is from their retail partners, because the relationship and margins there need to change first. Otherwise you got a full blow war between retail paths and the manufactures, which would kill everyone.

V I T A

You know, I always hear people on podcasts talking about how the big 3 need companies like Target and Wal-Mart and Best Buy selling their hardware. If they went DD only, those stores would have no interest in selling their machines or anything else.


What about Apple ? Target, Wal-Mart and Best Buy all sell Apple hardware and accessories and iTunes cards. I know part of it is the fact that Apple is so ridiculously popular that everybody has to deal with that and try to make money off it any way they can. I'm sure Apple gives them some decent ways to make profits off the hardware, accessories and iTunes cards. I don't see why Microsoft or Sony wouldn't also try to find ways to allow them to make a little bit of money off the accessories and what-not.

If that doesn't work, they could always go with the original Dell and Gateway approach. Tons of TV ads talking about the website and phone number to order the product shipped to your door. Seriously.Sony and Microsoft could just sell direct to the consumer via their website and a phone number, and tons and tons of TV advertisments.

Your Steam "backwards compatibility" is far from being a given - you are betting on MS Windows (or Mac) to remain backwards compatible with today's software for years to come.

How well do Windows 98 games play on Windows 8 64-bit?

def. ps plus has a lot of vita games included.

I have not bought any PSN games for the reasons given. If I'm paying money for a game, I want to own the game NOT rent it. Need to have trust that my digital version will still be supported down the line. I've bought a few android apps because they've established that I can use them on future devices. Worried about this ability, I chose not to buy PSN games on my PS3. I would imagine they will stop supporting those games within at most 5-10 years. They what? You essentially paid for a game rental? I'd prefer to be able to use my PS3 (and 1&2 for that matter) discs in my PS4, but at least by having the physical disc, I am assured that I can at least continue to play them on my PS3 in the future. And if people are correct and Sony essentially takes those purchased games away by not supporting them on the PS3 and not allowing them to be used on PS4, you can bet that will hamper my decision(and I'd imagine many others) in trusting that they won't do the same for PS4 titles. If they people get the shaft with their digital PS3 games, why would people like myself want to trust them and buy digital games on the PS4? Smells like another strike against the PS4 here if true..

Just want to clarify- I actually DO like Sony and grew up on the original Playstation. I also had the PS2, and currently the PS3. I AM extremely excited for the PS4, and as much as I may criticize aspects of it, whine because certain things aren't the way I want them, or argue about "discuss the importance of" specs and features, I will almost certainly buy the PS4. I've grown up with the dualshock controller and have never had any build quality issues or system crashes (RROD/YLOD). There are a handful of things I'd like to see on the PS4, but I fully realize it's a business that doesn't revolve around me. Sony would need to omit a few key features and come out with a significantly inferior product then MS for me to honestly consider MS.

Everyone often focuses on what a console "Can't" do, and seldom appreciate what it can. They showed us a console that has 8 GB GDDR5. It will almost certainly play 3-D blu-rays, and almost certainly will offer some form of 4k resolution. I realize this is a home theater forum, but did anyone else see the videos of the games they ran at the show? According to most credible sources including imagic, these games were played at over 1080p, possibly 4k, and on 4k, 3D capable gear. These games weren't tetris either. There was some pretty impressive stuff there. They looked amazing even from a shoddy streaming live feed. Besides the capabilities of the actual console, these developers showed some pretty promised, mostly fresh material. Knack looked like a very well done platformer and really looked fun to play- and I don't typically get into that genre. It looks like Killzone fans should be happy with Shadow Fall. The details and people in it really seemd impressive. The details in the graphics in Driveclub were intriguing and I can't wait to learn more about it's multiplayer/club format. inFamous:Second Sun looked interesting. The Witness looks to have a lot of potential- another game in a genre I don't typically get into, but still got my attention. Deep Down, Agni's Philosophy, and Final Fantasy all look promising as well. I would imagine there will be many Diablo fans excited for it being available on PS3/PS4- not only now, but for potential future offering from Blizzard. One of the biggest Xbox exclusives this gen was the Halo series, so I think it is AWESOME that Bungie will be bringing Halo 5 Destiny to the PS4. Halo was the biggest reason for most and only reason for many people getting the Xbox. It is the only game that almost convinced me to get xbox.. almost. Having them on PS4 should help get A LOT of xbox users to switch to Sony. But for me, the game with the most promise yesterday was Watch Dogs. It looked spectacular. As a traditional open world game, it looked stunning. It was smooth, the lighting land shadows looked great, there was some exceptional attention to details. Choosing a weapon/menu interface looked easily usable. I can't wait to learn more about this title. There is so much going on on the screen and the various sounds seemed to flow well together. The ability to switch to that black, digital screen to easily see available interactions looks to be well done. (Not sure what this is called, but have seen it used in varius levels of success on other games) With so much going on, it makes it easier to see what interactions and options are available...and it appears to be A LOT. When the actual gameplay first starts in the trailer, it shows that the loading screen is actually his phone, and the camera zooms out to show the scene... Is this a sign that it will give the option of using an actual smartphone to interact with the game? There was a lot going on and a lot of extremely fast reactions- were some of them made via a phone? Interesting possibilities.. Just the whole game concept was promising. It wasn't in an actual mission, yet there were so many possible interactions and I assume paths for the game to take. Is it possible to make the game what you want it to be in a whole new sense? Can you play an ethical character and choose to help people with your powers, like a rob from the undeserving to give to those that are (like the homeless vet in the vid?) or choose to cause complete chaos and use your powers for crime and control? I don't know, but I've never seen something of this genre and I'm very interested to see what they do with it. And how bout that remote!!! The two biggest complaints from the DS3 are that the thumbsticks are too close and designed poorly AND that the L2 and R2 are poorly shaped. The DS4 appears to have corrected both of these issues. The thumbsticks look to be slightly further apart, with a deeper angle on the "handles" which will keep thumbs on the triggers as well as prevent thumbs from hitting each other that some complain about. The L2 and R2 buttons appear to have a subtly "trigger" shape to them that looks to be shaped just right. I'm fallen in love with the previous dualshock controllers, so was worried about any changes, but it appears all they've done is IMPROVE. Additional changes include a share button (not something I see myself using, but can certainly see the benefit to others), and a touchscreen- which isn't obtrusive. Talk of screens on the controller worried me that it was force the controller to need to be shaped abnormally, but it actually looks even more comfortable then before. They also appear to have added a move component into the DS4. Let's not forgot some of those gawd awful looking patent drawings of some mutant controller with two balls on it! I didn't need the move in the controller, and was worried about an odd shaped controller to handle a screen and move, but they look to have added these features, changed some details asked for by user feedback, and still not only keep the shape and feel of the dualshock line, but possibly improve it! The slightly different materials/styling also look nice. Less important to me, the Move concept looks to be improved as well The eye looks like it will clip to a screen easily, look decent, and with the additional camera and other mostly unknown details- looks to have caught up to or surpassed the accuracy and potential of its competitiors. Some people like the kinect, hands free concept, but not me. Nice to see the upgrades, as if nothing else it allows developers to expand the family and party game libraries, leading to more sales. To be honest all we know FOR SURE about the PS4 is that it's got some very impressive specs (8GB GDDR5), higher then most predicted, it's got a REAL upgrade to the controller, and that there are some very respected developers working on some VERY promising titles. Besides what they showed, don't forget that there are other known developers working on titles too. We know Rockstar will continue GTA and Read Dead series among others. Most experts also agree that this console will be far easier to program games for, with much less of a learning curve compared to the last launch.... So, I would expect there to be better games and more of them released at this launch and shortly after. I would imagine the styling/materials of the DS4 and new move eyes will carry over to the styling we can expect to see on the console itself. I'm not overly excited, but wouldn't expect to be. Not too picky here, but I'd like to see a modern looking, black console that looks nice but doesn't stand out too much. Judging by the DS4 and Move eyes, I think we can expect just that. Also, as much as I fear being forced into an inferior digital world, I realize it's bound to eventually happen. Some of the features they've shown and the potential available- especially with the instant gaming without load times is interesting. Athough of less interest for me, it also looks like they are using the internet/digital world to offer further social interactions, partnering with facebook, and allowing players to interact with each other in news will certainly be appealing to many young people who game with their friends.

tl;dr? Lets appreciate that we're getting some promising games on a high spec console with an improved controller, improved Move, and additional features.

I have spent about $35 on PSN titles thanks to various sales.

FF7,9 Beyond Good and Evil, Resident Evil 4 HD, and a few minis.

I don't have much and I now have no plans to get another PSN point card with this news.


I am only now buying Virtual Console titles now that I know Nintendo will support them going forward, and even then it is limited to a select few. (until they fully roll out the Wii U VC upgrades, no sense buying now and paying a dollar to upgrade it just a few months later)

I was pretty impressed with the specs and the controller (nothing too drastic) from the show. Obviously, I'm going to wait on a few reviews of the launch titles to decide whether or not to get it on Day 1, but ya never know!

I'm not really into all the motion stuff, but it could be a fun gimmick if I have people over, so we'll see. I'm also not sure why the sharing feature is so revolutionary and cool for people.

After buying all 3 consoles this generation, I've decided to only do 2 this time around. The Wii U (when a real Mario or Zelda game come out) and either the PS4 or the new Xbox. After going through 3 360s with RRoD and still being on my first PS3, I just don't have any faith in Microsoft to build a reliable console. Plus with all the components the new one is touted to have, that thing will be problems upon problems, I'm sure. So I guess it's back to my gaming roots this time, Sony and Nintendo!

I understand the objection that buying a digital copy is more like renting, but it doesn't particularly bother me with games. When it comes to books, I like having a physical copy; not just for the tactile experience of reading, but I also like knowing that the book will still be readable decades from now. I still have books I bought thirty years ago, and I will resist buying e-books for as long as I can.

But software in general has a limited lifespan, and while I'm not thrilled about it, I'm accustomed to having to buy new software because the old version is no longer compatible with the newest version of the OS. When it comes to games, while I like having the option of going back and replaying my PS2 games, in practice I haven't done so. The last time I plugged in my PS2 was 2009 (when I played MGS2 and MGS3 in preparation for MGS4). And I don't think I'm unusual in that regard.

I'll keep my PS3 for as long as I can, and I expect I'll even buy PSN titles that look interesting for as long as the service exists. But I also expect that eventually I'll wind up primarily playing PS4 games. I'm okay with that.